Secret Service questions Marine vet about “jump the White House fence” comment made to Vet counselor
John sends us a link to a story at Military.com about Kevin Lane, a Marine Corps veteran who was visited by Secret Service agents about a less than artful comment he made to his counselor. Apparently, he was medically retired from his job as a Pentagon police officer and regretted that decision and was frustrated over attempts to get back to the job. He told his counselor that maybe if he jumped the White House fence, someone would listen to him and help him out.
That comment, instead of assistance, brought Secret Service agents to his door step.
Lane’s situation drums up concerns veterans and PTSD patients already have about the confidentiality of their counseling sessions and how their condition will affect their careers. Lane said PTSD cost him his job, and this incident made him distrustful of people he’d expected to be able to turn to for help.
Secret Service officials confirmed they interviewed Lane and explained their agents have a responsibility to investigate any possible threat against the president.
“The Secret Service respects the right of free speech and expression but we certainly have the right and obligation to speak to individuals to determine what their intent is,” Secret Service spokesman Brian Leary said in an email.
Maybe the Secret Service was doing their job, but was the counselor doing his? It reminds me of the sergeant in DC who was reported by the suicide hotline counselor to the police which resulted in police breaking into his apartment and his arrest.
Somehow, I don’t think this kind of stuff happens to civilians. Well, actually, it doesn’t happen to civilians – like the Colorado shooter whose clinician didn’t report his behavior. Or Loughner in Arizona who the police knew was illin’ but did nothing about it, until he shot up a bunch of people.
Lane didn’t even threaten anyone. Any person who has ever been to the White House can attest that there are so many security people wandering around, no one could get far if they jumped the fence – which happens a couple of times every year.
Lane even told the counselor that he understood the downside of doing that, and that he wasn’t intending to do it. But the counselor felt a need to contact the Secret Service anyway. Nothing like giving a paranoid person a reason to be paranoid, is there?
ADDED: John clarifies who the counselor really was;
The PTSD counselor was not from the Veterans Administration but from a Virginia Department of Veterans Services Grant funded Wounded Warrior Project (not the national program of same name) run by the Rappahanock Area Community Services Board. It is a group of do gooders from the local Mental health Regions collecting a paycheck venturing into areas that should be the purview of the Military and the Veterans Administration as well as the many Veterans Service Organizations. while they have been employing Vets to be Peer group leaders it seems to have been a nice financial boon for the local community service boards to suck up on the government grants to provide additional services at the Community Level for Virginia Vets.
Mr Lane would have been better served to have gone to an good PTSD program as offered at the Martinsburg, Ruchmond or Lyons VAMCs where he would have gotten care and counseling he needed from people who deal with Veterans on a daily basis and who generally know enough to tell the difference from Hyperbole and a real threat!
PTSD is not a mental Illness it is a normal reaction to life threatening stress. It never goes away but tools how to deal with that stress help to assuage the affects. these local boards need to leave the issue to those who know best and get out of the business of offering services out of their lane. I know it is a nice rice bowl for them but it belongs with real Veterans Professionals.
Category: Veteran Health Care, Veterans Issues
If he had stated he was jumping the fence to get close enough to kill the president, that’s a different issue…
Stating frustration by pointing out that sometimes only those who create an extreme reaction to their actions actually get serious attention to there concerns is a pretty normal (and relatively astute) observation.
Nice to know those counseling vets in this instance had no ability to distinguish between voicing frustration through an abstract, and actual criminal intent.
Articles like this will do little to encourage veterans who might desire an opportunity to discuss their concerns in a safe environment to trust a professional enough to pursue that desire.
From the Therapist Code of Ethics…
“Psychologists (and other therapists, such as social workers and counselors) obviously take the trust of their patients very seriously. It is crucial for psychologists to do whatever they can to keep any information shared between themselves and their patients during therapy sessions confidential. However, psychologists must also protect the health and well-being of their patients, which means protecting them from hurting themselves, inflicting injury upon others, or being hurt by someone else.”
We do not know exactly what was said or done in that session, obviously something that caused the counselor to make the call they did.. right or wrong I have no idea and would need a lot more information to decide.
As to the hotline case, as I recall he called asking for assistance, asked the hotline to call and get him help disposing of the weapon… the police may have over reacted as did the DA, but the person on the crisis line did what they should have done. (If that is the case you are talking about that is…)
PS. it is amazing what people insiste they said when they get their johnson caught in a meat grinder… I see some starnge shit here at the VA daily, and the outright lies by some of our brothers and sisters is at the forefront of that. I am not calling the man a liar, just saying it does happen a lot. Why I would have to see more than just his take on it.
When the ptsd label isn’t quite bad enough, you can always be labeled as a threat to the POTUS for an aggravated comment to your shrink.
This is why we lie to mental health when we get home. No nightmares, sleep like a baby, loud noises don’t phase me, I love my chain of command, my fuse is 10000 miles long, I’m never aggressive and I’m always happy… But not manic. yes of course I understand that there is no stigma attached to seeking help and I can trust you.
@3: In 2006 I made the “mistake” of answering all the questions truthfully. They ask questions like “did you see a dead body” of course I saw dead bodies, it was Iraq 2006, and “have you ever shot at anybody” like I said it was Iraq 2006 so of course I shot at people. Next thing I know I’m being told I have PTSD and they are making appointments for me. After my next tour I just told them what they wanted to hear so I could get the fuck out of reverse SRP and go home to my family.
i can’t believe that he said anything realistic enough to warrant step 2 involving a visit from the secret service. did he outline a detailed plan to execute a one man white house invasion? With the information here (even assuming the guy’s comment was more aggressive than he later stated) I feel safe in my assumption that the councillor is an alarmist.
@4 my answers above are only to be used for expedited in-processing and fast tracking to the chow line. =) talking the the pv2 mental health rep is something akin to the guy at the bar who asked if you ever killed someone. You smile ear to ear and tell them what they really want to hear… “of course not, I was in the band.”
@6 Oh I know that. That was my first deployment and I didn’t know any better. Don’t worry I learned my lesson. I prefer saying I was a cook, that usualy gets them to leave me alone.
Call me paranoid…..
It would be an interesting article to read about the number of military Veterans that have deployed come back to police jobs only to be shown the door for PTSD, TBI, or other combat related issues.
Some dept’s can’t show the Vet the door fast enough. I don’t always think it is because of a fear of the “Deranged Veteran Syndrome” (but that is the excuse used)but more of the Vets having a renewed sense of right and wrong and a willingness to call bullshit on some of the things that do occur on the other side of the thin blue line, and the attitudes of some (not all) of their fellow officers toward the populace.
ThisAintHell is my go2 first read each day. You gents are right -on and your best followers/side commentatos are intelligent and add depth/incite! I’m sure your getting more reads than your “like” shows. Were just keeping on the down low. Thanks Ret. USAF
Exactly as LZ states it @3. Anyone that answered that ridiculous Comprehensive Soldier Fitness survey with anything but pure vanilla “no I’m fine” is asking for trouble as well; just a mater of time before Wikileaks or the Huffington Post is quoting stats and names from that bit of none sense.
Holy Crap: USSS did their job just fine. The moron who reported it … well … not so much. If I was in the position of the Marine Vet and needed to vent my frustrations … I might have said something that is not PLAUSIBLE, POSSIBLE, or even remotely CREDIBLE!
I’ve commented about this before, but after having seen what a friend of mine went through with the VA’s mental health folks, I’ll NEVER ever ever say anything to them other than that I’m doing great, thank you, and isn’t it a wonderful day?
He made the mistake of trusting them to keep his comments confidential, and even though he wasn’t in any way planning to hurt anyone let alone himself, he was scarfed up by one of their teams and sent to a psych eval. All because he told them honestly about the dreams he was having.
It just isn’t worth it to trust ANY mental health professional EVER for ANYTHING. Ever since Congress and the states made it mandatory that they snitch to law enforcement, the docs having been ratting out folks, breaking what should be absolute iron-clad confidentiality, over the smallest of things, just to avoid any chance of being sued or otherwise held liable for what they did or didn’t due.
Until those laws are rolled back, and shrinks held accountable to the confidentiality laws, then you’re a damned fool to talk honestly with any of them.
The psychiatrist for the Aurora shooter DID report him to the police. From ABC:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/james-holmes-psychiatrist-contacted-university-police-weeks-movie/story?id=16943858#.UCqmcVZlTbw
The psychiatrist who treated suspected movie-theater shooter James Holmes made contact with a University of Colorado police officer to express concerns about her patient’s behavior several weeks before Holmes’ alleged rampage, sources told ABC News.
The sources did not know what the officer approached by Dr. Lynne Fenton did with the information she passed along. They said, however, that the officer was recently interviewed, with an attorney present, by the Aurora Police Department as a part of the ongoing investigation of the shooting.
@12 “…snitch to law enforcement…”?
And yet, what is it we always hear after a mass shooting? “Why didn’t the psychiatrist/doctor/psychologist say something to someone?”
You can’t have it both ways. Either abnormal/dangerous behaviior is reported or it isn’t. And that is determined by the clinician, NOT the patient. And there is absolutely no way to tell whether what the patient is saying is just blowing off steam, or leaving a future record for the cops to find after they’ve processed the dead bodies.
There is a difference in treating a paranoid schizophrenic/manic depressive spouting his desire to kill folks over the course of years of therapy, and a veteran with little or no psychiatric history expressing some thoughts about jumping a fence at the white house to get someone to listen to him.
Because the Secret Service apparently took no action, I’m inclined to believe the vet was expressing his frustration with an inability to get someone to review his case who has the power to effect a positive change for the vet in re-acquiring his position and less inclined to feel the counselor was acting to protect society.
That’s a fine line distinction I am glad I am not tasked with every day.
VA MH providers HAVE to report any comments directed at the SCOMAF. And, they make those comments a permanent part of the Vets medical record which will haunt them until the day they die. I wonder if they’ll be so quick to report when R squared get elected. From my experience, the majority of VA MH providers are foaming mouth, brain dead liberals trying to save the poor unfortunates who were forced by poverty/crime, blah, blah, blah to join the evil military machine.
# 16 has it nailed down….
So much for getting his job back in any case. The secret service did a great job here, and @pintonag I agree completely, you can’t have it both ways. Typically the people whining about the lack of whistle blowing are hindsight elitists who are clearly not familiar with crisis situations. As 13 pointed out, the shooter in aurora was “snitched” on and the results were the same; now we can punish some desk jockey cop like he was an accomplice though.
It was a judgment call I wouldn’t want to make, and I think the headshrinker blew it; however, this is also why I find full disclosure to a stranger laughably naive. determined violent psychopaths are going to find a way to hurt people.
@16 Just because a MH provider writes something down doesn’t mean they have to report it or that they can’t qualify it. Its rare that I saw Marines that didn’t make some kind of aggressive comment about someone. There was maybe one in 5 years that was doing more than blowing off steam and that one had other issues which necessitated hospitalization. And I always explained in my note why their angry complaint was not something that I thought required any additional action on my part. Your concern is understandable though because I don’t think everyone takes the time to distinguish between being pissed and being actually homicidal. I’ve always found that asking something like “do you actually want to kill them, dead in the ground, pushing up the daisies, or are you just thinking about beating the shit out of them?” If the answer is #2 and the person knows what the consequences to that behavior is, I don’t perceive a duty to warn and I leave it alone. You know the purposes of these programs and screens is to help, not to harm. Maybe that doesn’t always get operationalized the way it was intended but almost no one in mental health goes into it to screw patients over. Believe it or not, doctors really do understand how this feels because just like service members, we work damn hard to get qualified to do our jobs, work long hours and have high societal expectations placed upon us. Quite frankly, I think doctors are even worse than service members when it comes to admitting that they need help and since they are infinitely less likely to be given a dime from the VA for being even seriously psychologically disabled, they have even more to lose. The solution to the problem is not for people to not be honest. Psychiatrists aren’t damn mind readers and I’m tired of hearing people complain that their counselor doesn’t help while saying, in the same breath, that they pick and choose what to say. The better thing to do is to deal with the stigma… Read more »
@squid wiz you’re right on one thing, you can’t lie to your shrink and expect them to be able to help. I’ll also concede the point that successful mental health treatment would by nature remain on the dl, but it wouldn’t take a ton of effort to get some honest answers in the screenings. Let’s be honest here, the majority of Joes (all branches) don’t want to talk about it, and the military likes it that way. Less disability paid out, less money dumped into long term treatment, and less bad press. Suicide rates go up during times of war, economic “recession,” and winter. You can’t save ’em all doc, and I don’t doubt that you do excellent work based on pure motives but if you represented the majority, your work wouldn’t be excellent it would be the standard.
The VA sucks, however, there are medical-ethical codes and procedures that shoud be adhered too as well as professional (moral) standards of conduct involved.
I was,and tried to be, nice.
The VA sucks.
And they are not patient friendly.
Do not forget ,w find or I find it hard to share or trust someone .Because the civilies cannot understand we have experiented. When you tell some of things that . They either disbelieve or turn away in horror. SWeen this happen too many times. How can I trust the pyschs when they cannot relate to the problem we are dealig with. Joe