Thicker soldiers
I was going to pass on writing anything about the Associated Press article which discusses the distressing fact that soldiers are getting thicker in the Army, because it was an example of the Army half-assed “studying” more useless shit until I saw the picture that accompanied the article. First, though, the article;
In 2007, a pilot survey of 3,000 male soldiers on active duty found that they were, on average, as tall as soldiers who were measured in a 1988 survey. However, the 2007 sample of soldiers averaged two inches more around the chest, waist and hips.
So for some reason the Army thinks it’s needs more sizes in uniforms. But you know that it has something to do with the First Lady’s lecture to those clowns in a Fort Jackson DFAC a few weeks ago about eating their veggies.
But, anyway here’s the picture that encouraged me to write this today. Tell me you don’t think it’s funny;
That fat fucking civilian can’t even see the screen on his computer because his man-boobs are in the way, but he’s measuring the thickness of soldiers? They should be checking the thickness of civilians on military bases.
Anyway, the fucking study is useless because the Army, as usual only did half of it’s job;
According to AP, officials said they didn’t try to determine if troops in the 2007 survey were fatter or if the extra bulk was due to more muscle.
It was probably more muscle and they’re just afraid to tell Michelle that she’s preaching to the choir.
Category: Military issues
Um, that sounds like a pretty important distinction to overlook.
Was that measured with or without body armor?
Here’s a stupid question–how many service members were separated due to bodyfat/PRT/PFT failures? Think that might be an indication?
Maybe it’s the additional nutrition in MREs over C-rations?
Maybe all those new weight rooms are working.
@BCousins – I can’t speak to reserve and guard units, but by 1988 C rations were long gone in the active duty Army.
The Army, like the Air Force puts too much emphasis on appearance. I understand that appearance is what the public sees.In the 80’s(when I joined the Air Force)ALL emphasis was on bodyweight. Regardless of how fit you were, if you were overweight, i.e. over your max allowed weigh for height. you were placed on the”Fatboy Program”. There were out of shape skinny guys who couldn’t even run 1/2 of a mile. My max weight for 68″ was 184. I was near/at this with a 32″ waist. I could run a mile and a half in under 10 minutes. Our standard was 15 minutes. Later in the 90’s(Clinton years), we changed to a stupid bike test(which was finally jettisoned after about 10 years)and went to bodyfat measurements. Note: bodyfat only came into play if you were over your max weight. Still have the gelatinous, out of shape, unfit skinny guys. A few years before I retired we again changed fitness program to a cumulative test of pushups, situps, 1 1/2 mile run and waist circumference. AF still concerned with the waist measurement. Regardless of height, the standard was the same. Now, you can max out points on pushups, situps and run, but of waist is over 39″, you will still fail. So basically this tells me and anyone else that appearance trumps fitness.
Except for civilians. they can look like Fat Bastard.
We’ve been deployed for going on 12 years…thats like 12 years in the joint. Alot of our guys are hitting the gym because there is nothing else to do.
With the increased deployment tempo of the last decade or so it only makes sense that muscle mass has been on the rise.
What an idiotic study, noted idiocy compounded by not being properly finalized.
No, the Army did exactly what it wanted to do: provide a [pseudo-] scientific basis for booting joes without having to honor contracts with such things as bennies, pay and the like.
We saw the same thing in the 1990s, when the Army used both the BMI (an outdated, century old standard) and taping of 3 body parts which provided a range of 7% over-under. Soldiers who didn’t meet either method got the boot, regardless of actual, true bodyfat content.
So Jonn – you’re wrong. The Army got exactly what it wanted. Now, legally, they have another method of trimming the force. We’re on the fast track to a parade deck Army, just like after every damned war.
Thanks AndyN – I retired from the Regular Army in 93 but had forgotten the timeline for MRE replacement of Cs. Seems like C-Rats went on forever. Thanks for the illumination.
@12: “Seems like C-Rats went on forever.”
Just like Michelle Obama’s ass.
The first time I saw MREs was in 1983 at our first NTC rotation. I remember we were pretty excited about it.
@7…your appearance trumping fitness comment is correct. After 9/11, I knew of plenty of soldiers at our local Guard post that were taken off duty because they looked fat and it bothered some of the civilians coming on post. Nevermind that those MPs were some of the strictest people running the gate…they knew their job and instead they were replaced by overweight lazy civilian fucks from the State who would wouldn’t even question an expired military ID.
@13, OWB I just blew coffee out of my nose reading that…thanks!
saw a kid in 1977 essentially PT’ed out of the Marines. He was roundshouldered, looked a little pudgy, and slumped some at attention – that was the way he was built. He did his three miles in under 18 minutes, but just didn’t “look like a Marine”. They had him doing so much PT he essentially had no time or energy to study and washed out of his course.
Also had a couple of serious bodybuilders there – one was sent to a doc for weight evaluation. He got the doc to admit that muscle mass could be a mitigating factor – then did the classic biceps flex and literally split the shirt sleeve seam on his khakis. He passed….
Misguided emphasis on weight control for appearances sake isn’t a new issue. The best comment on the issue I’ve ever seen was a letter to the Army Times I saw in the mid-1980s. Working from memory, it went something like this:
“The picture I saw in your (date) issue disgusted me. That soldier was grossly overweight. He couldn’t even button his fatigue jacket!
If the IDF ever institutes an effective weight control policy they’ll be unstoppable.”
The picture referenced was that of a very heavyset Israeli soldier leaning against his armored vehicle (as I recall, his fatigue jacket was actually stretched at the belly and one button had worked loose). And the IDF is probably the one military in the world that I would not want to have to fight against – even today.
HW standards are about appearances more than function. I am naturally short and stocky as are all of the men in my family. I always bumped up against the topside of the weight standard, never mind the fact that I passed pt tests or could do my job. Now with different nutrition people just bigger. If you are training and putting on a lot more lean muscle mass you may not fit that cookie cutter image of what someone thinks a “soldier” should look at.
In 1988 your average infantry grunt carried about 35 pounds into combat. Today it is closer to 65. Skinny soldiers simply can’t hack the useless crap the Army is weighing us down with.
You notice it was only male soldiers in the survey? Using H/W to determine retention is stupid. I lost a few good soldiers because they couldn’t keep the weight off, but they passed every test the Army threw at them.
I weight about 220lbs most of the time and am 5’9. I come in under tape usually 5-7% but have never ever made weight. I should weigh 179. I have never weighted that in 19 years of military service. There are plenty of skinny fat dudes as well as guys who are all neck. I lift, muscle makes a huge difference but unlike in the Marines, the Army looks down at guys, especially O’s who don’t make tape. Look at Thul’s post above, I think the Army forgets how much the new crap weights.
I love the height and weight standards. Before I enlisted, I was just a few months out from my first powerlifting competition. I went to Fort Knox at 226 pounds carrying 15 percent body fat. I left at 196 pounds carrying 17 percent body fat. I’m at about 205 right now and score 250-260 on my PT tests, but only recently came off a fat flag because the tape put me at 25 percent body fat. That’s approaching obesity. However long it ends up taking, common sense has to come into play here.
Menoth – Common Sense and the Army’s HT/WT program have never met. They won’t either as we return to the parade deck. Next the black leather boots will be introduced so soldiers can have their professionalism graded by the intensity of the shine.
As for the lack of Common Sense: for an example, for those graced with ignorance of the Army’s mental flatulence: during a serious weight loss regimen, the body loses fat around the neck first, and stomach last. So after 1 month in the program, the soldier is deemed a failure because while s/he has lost weight (minimum of 3 pounds), their bodyfat % has increased. That was enough for many commanders to initiate chapters.
IIRC the commanders of the batteries and battalions I was in chaptered 1 officer, and a couple dozen NCO and soldiers. I chaptered 1 after he said didn’t want to play the HT/WT game anymore.
Funny. I just got reading a report from OSD about the “95% Male”
I looked at it and wondered what country these men were from. I never saw one of them in any unit I served with.
Well, I think it’s blindingly obvious. Carrying all the body armor, extra ammo, canteens, life-saving gear can’t help but increase muscle mass. Plus there should be clear differences between troops in the desert versus the mountains of ‘Stan. Hot versus cold; skinny versus fat (insulation). But then, they rotate so fast they probably don’t have much time for adaptation.
Not to mention all the politically correct bullshit our mercenary and cowardly Chiefs in the Pentagon keep adding to the burden.
I have a simple solution. Instead of allowing all these PA’s and dos run around curing sick Afghans, they should be administering me controled doses of GH and anabolic’s. I’d have a low body fat, carry more muscle and generally look better naked. Further, scrap this new bs Army PT crap and bring in some sports med/trainer folks like the SOF community gets and start treating us like an athlete instead of saying we are all “Army athlete’s.
Yeah this is just more useless shit. The toughest guy i ever knew in the Army was about 5’10 and weighed in at 175. When i say tough, i mean the guy could go all day, and he could bench almost double his weight. Had hands and feet that were lightning quick, and there was’nt a guy who could take him down in hand to hand, unless they got a good hold of him. And i’ve seen small guys who damn tough and strong also. Personally when i was in my prime i was 250 pounds and i’m 6’4 Did it make me a better soldier?…doubt it. Maybe i could carry more ammo, but thats about it. Soldiers come in all shapes and sizes , and except for the over weight, each one has his strong point.
Every Marine I know and work with, have all known that the HW standard is crap.
And the tape method of BF is outdated, and useless.
It made more sense back when we could run a 1st class PFT and get an extra 3% on the tape…this took into account the fact that it was inaccurate.
Back when we did close order drill with muskets, they had me on the “fat body” program because at 5′ 8″ i could never get down to 181# as the hgt/wgt chart dictated. Forget the fact my trousers were 34/30 and my blouse was 44R. Forget the fact the only thing that kept me from a perfect PFT was the run. I could get a 4.8 40 yd dash but not less than 20 mins on the run! I was on the fat body program until we got a new Dr at sick bay who was a power lifter. On my bi-monthly evaluation he took one look and I was no longer on the program. In the mid ’70s they were tossing Marines left and right because of our company clerk and that damned chart. Because I was a Cpl like our clerk, I rubbed his face in it every chance I could!?
If memory serves me correctly, this exactly along the lines of what the Army was doing during the 70’s. If you didn’t have the proper “BMI” IE overweight or looked like you had a slumped posture, said trainee/soldier did extra PT or was shipped out to a re-training company. Don’t remember what base it was at, but we did have one returned to our unit because he was indeed physically fit. Seems the evaluator had a grudge with said troop…and was gone within weeks of that being found out. LOL.
It’s exactly this kind of crap that makes me detest height/weight standards unconditionally.
These standards are militarily unnecessary. They have no bearing on one’s ability to do his/her job. It doesn’t matter what a person weights or looks like; what matters is if they can perform the physical tasks associated with their MOS or specialty in combat. All else is for looks.
If evaluating combat ability was what we were after, we’d have different physical tests and standards by MOS – and properly-run centralized testing to prevent “pencil whipping”. We don’t. So it’s pretty clear height/weight standards are little more than a “look good” tool.
Case in point: I knew a guy in the early 1980s. He was about 6′ 2″, and weighed around 210. He looked heavy, and was borderline on that era’s height/weight standards (I’m pretty sure he’d be over today).
The guy could literally run about a 33 minute 10k (6.2 mi). I personally saw him do it (he smoked me).
The guy was physically capable of doing most any job out there. But I’m sure he sweated every weigh-in his entire career.
When I enlisted in 2000, the doctors at MEPS told me that I couldn’t get in because I weighed too much. They taped me and I came out over the maximum allowable BFI percentage. I was 6’4″ and weighed 230lbs. It took me three months to get those idiots to dunk-test me. After that, I was immediately signed up. See, I was addicted to exercise before I got in. Pinch, multiple-circumference tape, and dunk testing showed me at 12%, 13%, and 15% BFI, respectively. However, my abs were huge. Not fat, far from it, but the actual abs. Oh, the joys of a good large northern German heritage ribcage. In BCT, I consistently got over 250 on my APFT, with my minimum being my run (typically in the 70 area). When I got back to my unit, the same damn thing happened. Even though I passed my APFT with flying colors (enough to get me assigned to a three month TDY in Israel), I was almost held back from taping too high using the ab/neck ratio. One of my NCOs had the bright idea to actually pinch test me and I came out at 17% (BCT actually had me lose muscle mass). In supply, I could single-man lift a full rack of M-4s, Mk19s, and M-2s. I knew supply geeks who strained to double-man lift the same things. During road marches, I typically carried my 60 pounds of crap and another forty worth of beans and bullets WITH my SAW. There were infantrymen who couldn’t even carry a light load with an M-4. When I was sent to the MFT course (Master Fitness Trainer), they tried telling me that I was too heavy. At that point, I was back to working out about 6 hours a day while working at the gym as a personal trainer. We held an APFT and I scored the highest in the class. But, they told me that I might be sent home because I didn’t pass tape… The way the military looks at things is stupid. They want everyone to be a greyhound. Well,… Read more »
I agree with the above comment…where are the pictures of the women getting measured and did they count that in their “stats”? HT/WT is a bitter subject for me because it was one of the reasons why I called it quits after a ten year run in the military too. I got tired of the games, especially after I had my first child. They barred my enlistment but by that time I already was ready to get out and told them barring me wasn’t going to make any difference on changing my mind about staying. When they changed the standards in 2007(?), I think I was better off before they changed it. A friend of mine who was a PT god sat down with me and we ended up figuring that I would have to make my neck bigger and my hips and waist smaller to actually pass the tape test. Never mind that I could pass my PT test…and even nearly did so when my douchebag Readiness NCO made me take the PT test before my maternity leave was up by regulation standards just so he had some numbers to punch in for the upcoming CCIR.
@33, I am truly surprised you got them to accept a dunk test. I remember a recruiter in my state telling me about a kid that was a big wrestler in college who wanted to enlist but couldn’t pass MEPS because they kept telling him he was too fat. He went to his doc and had a dunk test that showed he was in fact the opposite and they wouldn’t accept the results. He finally said “fuck it” and told the recruiter to get lost.
I forgot I had this link too: http://www.tgdaily.com/trendwatch-features/52941-soldiers-get-lipo-to-meet-army-weight-requirements
I don’t remember really hearing about soldiers going to this extreme…but maybe I wasn’t in the right circles or someone was just trying to deny the problem was bigger than they thought.