Yeah But…
Been wrestling with this for a coupla days.
At the outset: A disclaimer… I was never a SPECWAR sailor. Hell, I had never even heard of SEALS before I was discharged. Knew about the UDTs, even did some diving with them on Guam. Further, I am NOT qualified to discuss current tactics in ANY current theater.
With that out of the way…
Full story of SEAL mission in question
When the third chopper — carrying 38 passengers and crew, and one dog, in a reinforcement known as an “immediate reaction force” — approached, a small group of Taliban on a rooftop stood ready. They fired rounds of rocket-propelled grenades. One clipped a rotary blade, sending the CH-47 into a violent spin and then a fiery crash.
All onboard died, including 17 elite Navy SEALs.
We all know the story… or do we?
Jonn’s earlier post alluded to what the article describes. Wherein command makes a decision that get’s someone killed, etc.
The kicker for me:
At some point, the Rangers and special-operations commanders talked about sending in reinforcements to catch them all. A mission was set, at first with 17 troops, then a total of 38, including SEALs, other Navy personnel, Afghan commandos and the air crew.
“We really just kind of talked the idea of inserting the element to maneuver on them, the enemy that got away,” the Army Ranger task force commander later told Gen. Colt.
As the reinforcement Chinook approached, it — unlike the first two choppers — had no AH-64 Apaches for surveillance or fire suppression.
YMMV, but please DO take the time to read the whole thing. The NCA and the Brass Hats have been doing this sort of thing forever. It would be different if there were an immediate threat, but this just reeks.
Category: Geezer Alert!, Politics, Real Soldiers
First of all, it’s a “rotor blade”, NOT a “Rotary blade”!! Secondly, with the fiberglass blades, it shouldn’t have caused the 47 to go “into a spin”, unless the RPG hit the rotor head itself. I’ll run this by the Phrog pilots & aircrew I served with, just for clarity. (H-46 pilots). I find it rather odd that the SEALS would work with other teams as described in the article. My squadrons have had various missions with the SEALS, mainly taking them someplace & dropping them off. Knew a bunch from my duties at San Clemente Island, too. You’re right, this article is either poorly researched & written or simply just reeks of bullshit.
No way a -47 should have been sent in (either MH-47 or CH-47) without some sort of cover from the Apaches.
Sounds like this insertion was not necessary, and the SEALs could have been dropped in a cold LZ or not needed at all.
But I’m not going to second-guess the people who do the shooting in this case. Just doesn’t look right from where I sit.
A troop of T1 Operators inserted on a hot LZ in a fat-assed -47 (no offense to any -47 drivers reading this) that screams ‘shoot at me’ based on its silhouette alone…to catch 10 monkeys who may have leaked but they’re being prosecuted by AH-64s.
It started in late 2001. Real time video feeds of the fighting going to commanders far away and not in touch with the nuances of the situation on the ground. It looks like a video game, and more and more I get the feeling that some of them are letting the mind slip and responding like it is a video game.
Risk vs. reward among other principles…need to be reviewed by some people.
‘Chasing 10-ish leakers’? Give a platoon of Rangers a few power bars, some cold Rockstar Energy drinks, and tell them they’ve got free tickets to the NFL game of their choice if they come back with the scalps in 24 hours or less. Then insert them 5k or so from the wayward band of soon-to-be scalped monkeys. Problem solved.
Yeah, I am joking. But only a little bit.
Not that I’m an expert on anything that has to do with aircover, but the only time that I have ridden in a helicopter, we had a cobra escort.
As I don’t do well with flying (not a phobia, just not partial to not being in control of my life), I haven’t ridden in air assets as often as others…so I don’t know.
Can’t speak for spec ops, but the my hubby tells me even doing medavacs(UH-60) last year in Afghanistan they had escorts- usually an another armed UH-60 or a 58, but if it was especially hot LZ then a UH-64- and it was reasonably easy to get a 64 to their location if they needed it.. That was regular medavac.. I can’t imagine a spec op mission not having some escort if a regular medavac always had one.
Sometimes commanders come up with some really stupidassshit and the team leaders need to say “sir, we ain’t doing it that way.”
I know it makes you an outcast and slower to get promoted…but it also keeps people alive longer. We had some desk jockey commanders in Iraq who came up with lots of stupidassshit.
Most of what I had written back on August 7, holds… “3)Last week, another chinook was also downed by an RPG outside of the former Camp Blessing on the western side of the Pech Valley. That area though has only one Cop left open, Honaker-Miracle, on the eastern side by Asadabad. The entire AO is basically contolled by the Taliban/HIG. Which allows them to control choice real estate for observation and attack. Have no idea what the situation in Wardak is, but I know its contested by the Taliban and Haq Network. If this truely was a enemy gathering, its likely that at least some higher quality bad apples were there. Over the last year it has been mentioned that the enemy has managed to blunt many of our night raids from SOF, by posting sentries to warn them. Then they could flee or react in some other manner. Even if they couldn’t stop the raids execution, they may have pot shoted at its exfill, especially if they had some higher terrain to shoot down from. I don’t think the enemy’s antiaircraft capabilty has improved so much as these two events were coincidental. Though admittingly the enemy has got much more confident, with our regional retreats and Obama’s silly timeline. Cedo 18Cedo Alteram Says: August 7th, 2011 at 12:35 am P.S. the comment about the night raids losing effectivness comes from both Taliban and SOF sources.” Then I followed up with… “I’m more shocked that people have a tough time believing that an RPG, even with its relatively short range, can take down a helicopter. When the there are few realistic LZs, and the enemy is located at a higher elevation its more then plausible.” Frankly what I wrote is almost exactly what happened. The Rangers hit a compound, where a few enemy escaped, meeting up with a couple of others, assumingly also outside the building. The Apaches gunned down a few of them. A quick reaction force was called to help chase down said escapees. The quick reaction force landed under enemy observation. Then an RPG round flew at… Read more »
As the reinforcement Chinook approached, it — unlike the first two choppers — had no AH-64 Apaches for surveillance or fire suppression.
Not a special op’s guy nor would I ever be, but that last sums it up. Somebody, somewhere was having a really bad day at the video game console(maybe it was an ego issue)and those men lost their lives, needlessly; because someone else neglected to follow through on the “7 P’s plan”, plain and simple….May the soldiers and sailors that were riding that bird rest in peace.
8# No there were already two apaches there. It was not a bad assumption that they could/would be able to provide support.
Gunship support would not have automatically guaranteed success of the mission. Bad guys have been shooting down Hooks with RPG’s for well over 40 years. It’s a risk you accept when you walk up the ramp. http://www.geronimos.org/Pachyderm/Pachygallery/Page_1x.htm
#10 Yep.
@ 8 & 9: roger that.
Someone here doubted the possibility of loss of rotor blade causing a spin. Quoting Gen. Colt’s Executive Summary memo to CENTCOM Hq……….”but the second RPG struck one of the blades on the aft rotor assembly and exploded, compromising the structural integrity and causing a rapid chain reaction resulting in the loss of over 10 feet of rotor blade. Within a matter of seconds, while the aircraft spun violently, the aft, then forward rotor blade systems separated from the aircraft, and the main fuselage dropped vertically to a dry creekbed” End Quote. Any rotor wing aircraft without it’s blades is a brick. Further on in Gen. Colt’s report the estimate is made that the entire event, from RPG strike until they impacted the ground was less than 5 seconds.
The enemy always has a vote. But no escort?
Ran across this in my bleary-eyed night-time web, http://texasfred.net/archives/11470
Reading between the lines of both – Yeah, it reeks.
In speaking w/ my Phrog friends, it’s unlikely that the 47 went into a “spin”. Sure, bad things are going to happen, but a spin is not one of them. Since the 46 & 47 are similar airframes, it’s safe to assume that the article is full of shit. Other details are probably just as erroneous.