Special Operations ain’t so special anymore
beretverde sent us a link from Associated Press which tosses the “special operations” phrase like it’s fricken ice cream. They begin well by telling the tale of a first ElTee who was killed while she was supporting a unit in Afghanistan, without mentioning which unit it was she was supporting. But her only function according to the article was frisking Afghan women wearing burkas – that’s not special operations, Lolita Baldor, author of the article. it’s the same thing that female cops in the US do.
Baldor goes on to embroil herself in the “special” adjective by describe the “grueling” training these women endured;
Last November, the first group of women went through a grueling five-day assessment that tested their physical and military skills, their problem-solving and writing abilities and their psychological and mental fitness. Those that passed moved on to a six-week training program.
Yeah, nothing in the military that lasts for five days can be considered “grueling”. As long as we knew it was only five days, we knew we’d make it. I know that for civilians, five days can be a long time, but not for military people. That’s like civilians think that five mile runs every morning are grueling, or thirty minutes of calisthenics are grueling. Anyone who couldn’t pass a five-day selection phase, no matter what it involved, was too weak to be in the military under any circumstances. I noticed Lolita didn’t mention how many wash-outs there were…my guess is NONE.
And in January, the first group of 28 women deployed to Afghanistan with Army Rangers and Special Forces teams.
Yeah, last I heard, selection phase for the Ranger battalions was two weeks long (that’s fourteen days, not two five day weeks) and Ranger School is nine weeks (again, there are no weekends off during Ranger training), Selection phase for SFQC is a month and the school is 16 weeks, so you know, a five day selection phase and six weeks of training is just as good as the men’s training. I’m sure they learned just as much.
And anyone who has served in these units will tell you that training is only the beginning point. It takes years in these units to reach the proficiency of the real “operators”. Just like any other fresh graduate from any school. These women were rushed to war so someone politician can tell the media that there are women in “special operations”.
I’m not trying to take away from the tragedy of the death of Army 1st Lt. Ashley White who was the subhect of the article to begin with….she was killed by a Taliban bomb and she’s just as dead as a man would be, but that’s kind of my point. Someone made a politically expedient decision to rush women through training so they can be “Special Operations” soldiers for the media, and this one died.
It’s a tragedy in that someone thought that half-assed training was worth the life of a fine, young 1st Lieutenant.
Now if you made all the way through my rantings and read every word to see what my point was, you can start tearing me up in the comments. If you did like Obama Girl and read the first sentence only, please save my bandwidth.
Category: Military issues
To get back to the original point of Jonn’s diatribe – sending people into harm’s way, for PC points, under trained – will get them, and those around them killed. Not-A-Good-Thing.
As for The King (Elvis is dead) – has anyone seen his DD214, or anything like it, to prove his “bona fides”? If not, then he should be banned/blocked from this site, as being a hazard to health, with no redeeming features (humor) whatsoever.
Most who actually walk the walk don’t gloat about it, are humble, silent professionals and always will be. The opposite of this is the first sign you might be dealing with a poser.
My $.02 is thus: There is no way in hell 5 days can be “grueling” unless it is part of a larger training period. I HIGHLY doubt they included sleep deprivation, pushing someone to the point their body simply would not go any further (multiple muscle failure), OR high stress lanes (arty sims with live tracer rounds overhead etc). That kind of training is reserved for actual Special Forces or Rangers.
I am tired of everyone trying to characterize some half assed familiarization course, as SF qualification courses. Again I respect that SOME females might be able to keep up with the boys, when you toss a woman into a bunch of type A personalities that don’t accept failure and only give a shit about feelings when you’re actually missing most of your legs. . . you tend to get problems. I’ve seen it happen before it will happen again. I don’t care how hardcore a woman is, she’s still a woman, and people tend to forget (or want to forget) that the skills that men and women excel at are different.
There is more to the training and this story than what is here. Yes some dipshit reporter got a little excited and added more than was there, but that is no reason to start beating the same dead horse over and over.
Jon, as I’m sure you’re aware, women get killed by bullets and IEDs without the benefit of being tagged “Special Operations”.
Every Soldier receives “train as you fight” instruction. The “rushed to war” aspect is across the board. Young troops fresh out of basic training and AIT are deployed with their assigned units. Their NCOs are supposed to make sure they’re ready for combat ops.
As for the young LT, being a Burka frisker ain’t what got her killed. She was in harms way doing what Soldiers are trained for, and an IED planted by muzzie fucksticks took her life. I understand your concerns about the half-assed training, though. That shouldn’t happen to any Soldier, regarless.
I still love ya!
Note to ObamaGirl: Shut the fuck up and do your homework before you spew any more Obamessiah worship.
Obama’s Marxist/Keynesian destruction of our national security, foreign policy, and economy will hopefully come to an end in 2012. He feeds the maws of the worst his party has to offer. He’s a corrupt little man with corrupt friends and associates. He was raised with a resentful grudge against America by communist parents and he uses his position to wreak havoc. To idolize someone like that takes a shit factory for a brain.
Pssst…OG. You might wanna listen to Jane. She has BTDT, and has the t-shirt to prove it, hon. Still waiting for our little triumvirate of OG, spinchter, and king to put up or puss out.
Come to think of it, spinchter did the puss out route and still has the nads to come in here and talk shit every once in a while. Anonymity makin you brave, Jack!
I hate to toss in any remark that might make ObamaGirl respond again. But I can’t help but suspect that either she’s dating (a) A brand new 18X with a attitude (the why goto high school when I’ve been to college remark) or (b) a SF Support guy that tosses a green beret on for the drive home to impress his girl. I’ve spent 5 years in USASOC (as a support punk, I admit) and I rarely saw a SF guy turn down any opportunity to attend any school, regardless if they thought it would be a waste of time or not.
@JM, You know why? They make damn sure that when they go to a school they get Per Diem too. Not gonna lie those guys got the pay scale ALL figured out, and they know how to work it.
@53… “SOME females might be able to keep up with the boys”… I will never forget “Bouncing the Gates.” It was a killer, and NO WOMAN could keep up with the boys (maybe on day 1 but day twenty?). I know it is a nicer-gentler military (society dictates) and the standards have dropped … however- NO WAY IN HELL, ANY WOMAN ON THIS PLANET COULD HUMP THE RUCK… BOUNCING THE GATES-AFTER THE TEN MILER! Whether they are “Special Operations” or not!
I’m with you Jonn, this entire article is very misleading, and it shines doubt on the credibility of the entire piece. “White, like other female soldiers working with special operations teams, was brought in to do things that would be awkward or impossible for her male teammates. Frisking burqa-clad women, for example.” K’ though this is a task that isn’t special operations specific but okay. “Afghans have especially resented the practice of “night raids…” which are mostly conducted by operators, these have been increasingly successfully countered and foiled by the enemy over the last few years. Info tidbit there. “Now, the first female soldiers are serving in commando units.” No they are not, attached to is not in. “But as elite special operations teams fanned out across the country doing counterinsurgency “stability operations” in the small villages, they complained to their superiors that they weren’t reaching the women and children who make up as much as 71 percent of the population.” First the operators are generally not doing this, the line units are. The exception is supposed to be Special Forces, if they actually having gone back to their traditional role and not used simply for direct action. Most of the operators are not being utilized for “stability operations”, that task is performed by infantry or other adapted combat arms units. “They went in two-woman teams as part of larger special operations units — usually numbering about a dozen. And they were designed to go out on patrols and into the villages with the special operators to help build relations with the communities by engaging with the Afghan women.” Thats funny because I recall watching a few clips about Marines in Afghanistan, who were not in anyway Marsoc related, with female engagement teams. Didn’t know line infantry were now considered “Special Ops”. “Down in Helmand Province with a team of Marine special operations forces…” are you sure? See above. “Any day that they’re walking into a village and engaging with the population they are at the same risk as those Special Forces, SEALs, or special operators they’re detailed to. So… Read more »
Sir:
“I’m not trying to take away from the tragedy of the death of Army 1st Lt. Ashley ”
Yes you are.
Don’t let a badly written article lead you down the slippery slope of ” women don’t belong in combat/can’t handle combat/etc, etc.” They’re in it, get used to it.
You’re not here (Afghanistan),so you don’t really know.
lazarus Long: I don’t think that was Jonn’s point. What my take away was this; that these all female teams attached to spec ops were put in a position where the other members of the unit were trained at a different level and the cohesion of said unit suffered due to a lapse in training in order to get these female teams into the field as quickly as possible.
The “why” is what is being contemplated, not that females are serving in a combat environment.
So now women at bars will be using the “I’m Special Ops” pick-up line?
@61 I actually would debate women in combat. I do not believe in putting women in combat positions, for moral reasons, I do not believe it is good for unit cohesion, and I do not agree that they can keep up. Standards should NEVER be altered to suit people that can’t cut it. Why you need to do pull ups in Airborne is because you need to have the body strength when messing with the risers. Likewise Air Assault, there is a reason it is so physically tough. Throw a 90 pound woman in a combat situation and ask her to drag a joe that weighs 250 with all his gear on (most weigh more). Then there’s the killer edge. I agree that SOME women can be warriors, and wild and fanatical ones at that, but the Warrior is a professional. When the world goes to hell in a hand basket a warrior is cool and collected. able to switch between violent and rapid action, to measured, and more circumspect responses in a heartbeat. This might be uncomfortable for some but Males are usually goal oriented, and when things like “take that hill” come up, well they’re gonna take that hill. Women being detail oriented tend to look at “take that hill” and see all the things that will stand in their way. Also as leadership styles go males are often very hierarchical, which tends to work well in combat or high stress situations (NOT ALWAYS but USUALLY). Women being consensus builders, will try to get everyone on their side before taking an action. I’ve seen it happen so many times its not even funny. It’s fine and perhaps even a good thing in support units. Getting a consensus on what exactly they need to do to push out supplies, or enemy intentions, might actually be an asset. NOT IN COMBAT. Lastly I need to point this out, and it may be sexist but I don’t care. As a man I feel obligated to PROTECT women. Yes, sometimes from themselves. it may be societal, or it may be hardwired in… Read more »
As a two tour combat Vet, let me go ahead and get this off of my chest, I personally have no problem with women in combat, hell, it reminds me of what I am fighting for. I have seen female Soldier’s do some remarkable things, plus, I have a younger sister that is one of the best shooters in North America, she has 26 national records and trains at Colorado Springs in the summer, our Dad is a Marine Distinguished Shooters Association member, and she can out shoot his ass. Don’t EVER tell me that women can’t shoot! I have watched female Soldier’s fracture their hips right before a road march, then walk 25+ miles with 105 pounds on their back only to ask for medics after we finish. I think the concept of Female Engagement Teams is an interesting and potentially war winning one, its already convinced multiple villages to lay down arms and switch to our side… I encourage you to read Brad Thor’s book The Athena Project; while a work of fiction, it delves into some of the real life history and training that the women go through, and I guarantee its a lot longer than four weeks!
Although, now that I have read through the comments, I also agree with SGT Kane, I went through that course in 2004, we had everything to SOF standards, did the CWST, Nasty Nick, live fire with all kinds of weapons, Russian weapons familiarization, we learn how to ruck the Fort Bragg way, on the bounce-walking at a running pace without running, we did LINES training, boot and ute runs, telephone pole and rifle PT and runs, the PLF, we ran everywhere just like airborne school, did our FTX at Camp Mackall, watched a live leaflet drop, and even made a pilgramage to Nick Roe’s grave at Arlington! And at the time we still got weekend passes, but no cellphones, laptops only for class, and had to wear those gay reflector belts to identify ourselves as AIT Soldiers. I absolutely enjoyed Bragg and JFKSWCS, and would love an opportunity to go back as an instructor or working in the 3 Shop doing proponency stuff! It is a shame that people like Rumsfeld (he watered down the SOF force) have completely ignored the four SOF truths. I blame him for the degrading of the CA/MISO force, and taking away the Esprit De Corps that we had back in 2003/2004!
@SGT Kane,
Given that you entered PSYOP in 2008, two years after it was re-assigned to USARC from SOCOM, I’m unclear as to how you can judge that the standards have slipped in PSYOP, or in SOF in general.
And that nonsense about a “kill course”? Never a part of the POI. Someone has been pulling your leg.
Lucky,
I do not recommend hitching your wagon to SGT Kane’s star. I think it’s great that you found AIT challenging & rewarding, but to argue that the standards have decreased, you have to be more specific. In what ways has the POI actually changed in recent years?
He is just a different type of politician he hasn’t been corrupted by Washingtons politics and genuinely wants the best for this country.
Crackhead.
Buster, the CAPOC community now belongs, at least on the reserve side, to USARC, while the proponency and training of the total force was left to USASOC, its a truly retarded way to go about things, and you can blame a certain former Navy stick jockey who sucked at SecDef for the change. It jacked up not only the training and funding, but for about three years now, our promotion and rating schemes have been fucked because FORSCOM has no clue what to do with us, USARC hates us for our once distinct status in the Reserve, and USASOC doesn’t want us back because of the colossal headache that USARC is creating. So SGT Kane knows what he is talking about.
And the AIT candidates (that’s what we were called in 2004), are no longer allowed off post passes, nor are they allowed to have phones, they don’t train as hard as we once did, and Nasty Nick is no longer on the table. This is mostly funding related, as due to Optempo and manning related, there just were no NCOes available or interested in helping to rewrite the proponency or doctrine for our training or inclusion in future force planning. I am putting my papers in for an ADOS tour to do that.
@68 Lucky sounds like the type of guy who went to the last hard class of every Army school he attended. He starts every comment as a two tour combat vet when he was civil affairs.
At least he went OG. Still haven’t seen your 214 yet. Strange, no?
You know what Ms. Hogg, at least I have the 214, USAJFKSWC(A) diploma, welcome to the Regiment letter, ribbons/medals/awards and all documentation to back up what I say, and have even posted a link to it on a previous thread!!! Sorry, having just become a 32nd Degree in the Scottish Rite, I have been slightly busy, and haven’t updated it, but http://www.therantingsofaginger.blogspot.com, what have you done with your life Ms. LookslikeaHog?
#65… and I am a Chinese Fighter pilot!
When you are in the mountains-jungle-city etc… and the shit has hit the fan (e.g. Somalia) … the first thing you don’t need is someone who can’t pull their weight (literally). This shit about I know a woman who can do such and such (shoot, ruck etc.).. well… where the fuck is she? Is she in the Battalions? Group? Fuck no! The fallacy of women can cut it is pure BS, brought up by feminists voting in congress, and then force fed to the military. The counter claim I often used to hear Was: “Yeah and there are some guys in my unit that can’t do 20 push-ups but this chick I know can do 50! . Blah blah blah… There will be exceptions, but let me tell you without ANY reservations it is a BIG MYTH-LIE! We used to call it: “The Big Lie #1 Women can do as well in combat as men.”
As for shooting- it takes 3-5 lbs of finger pressure. A fucking kid can do that.
As for chicks in “Special Operations”… can’t wait to run into one.
Not to be construed as a misogynist… but a REALIST!
Not trying to be a Dick about it, but I have met female Soldiers that can hack it in combat, but then again, I have met quite a few who have used the I am a female and should be treated differently excuse, and they cause attitudes such as that.
@Lucky, 1. To claim that SOCOM is watered down, and then to cite units that are no longer a part of SOCOM, does not prove his case. For PSYOP, the Active Duty ceased to accept initial entry Soldiers, and their course is intentionally designed to ape the SF course with a selection process, a language section, etc. I don’t think they’re nearly as high speed as they think they are, but SGT Kane was bragging about how bad@ss 37F AIT was in 2008, and how much worse it is now. I don’t think that’s proven based on the evidence provided. Fam fire isn’t something miraculous, it’s something you can and should do at your home station unit. Well, you should be qualifying if possible, but that’s as much an issue of limited time as anything. You mention that off-post passes and phones are no longer authorized. That would indicate that the training is tougher, wouldn’t it? 2. The USASOC split was due to the fact that SOCOM did not want to spend its Title 10 funds on units (CAPOC) that were also mostly supporting conventional forces, USASOC wanted to spend those funds on SOF missions. That PSYOP and CA support conventional forces has always been a part of our doctrine. It’s not new. CA also started dipping into FORSCOM at about the same time with all the involuntary IRR recalls, and FORSCOM wanted control over their own people. It wasn’t just a matter of the SECDEF having a bad day. 3. I’m unclear as to how promotion and rating schemes are jacked up by USARC. CAPOC stopped hosting Senior Promotion Boards at the end of FY2009, but I’ve had multiple NCOs make E-7 and E-8 since then going to our RSC. If you’re talking about the transition to a semi-centralized promotion process in 2009, I believe that’s Army-wide, and would have affected us were we still housed in SOCOM. 4. Funding has been reduced for training – that’s true. But the quality of the Soldiers I’ve observed has not dropped considerably. And both you and the Sarge are operating on… Read more »
I must grudgingly agree, the watering down occurred by about 2006, when they tried a ‘pilot program’ to truncate the AIT down to ten weeks, and for both CA/ Psyop, that is not enough time to learn your job. I got quite a lot from the course and straight loved it! And that day trip was literally a trip home for me, I went to visiit an aunt and uncle over the lunch break who lived near the cemetary.
#76
“but I have met female Soldiers that can hack it in combat”
Give me a fucking break. Maybe your definition of combat is not the same as mine.
Let’s reach a bit further… I’m in a bar fight at Rick’s Lounge (god I miss that place) and the Special Operations Combat, great shooting, 105 lb 25+ mile rucking women will be involved …and you really think these chicks could hold their own in the fight?
Again… if so then: ??????????????
That’s a bar fight, not a firefight in Baghdad or Helmand, totally different, and let’s face it, women have amother, much older set of weapons that can be used to defuse such situations long enough for their Side to win….
@80 Lucky is CA combat to him is just going out into sector and handing out soccer balls
Really OG, really? This coming from the raging bulldyke garrison MP that quite obviously never left the line at the burger king, let alone the wire! By the way, pony up that 214 you promised a while back or get the phuck out! Out, out damned spot!!!!
And combat to me means sustained operations, firefights, patrols, etc something you never got to experience while you were writing speeding tickets
#80… now officially in the clueless realm… the bar fight was a reach… as in a metaphor!
As for Iwo Jima, Anzio, Dak To, Pork Chop Hill…?
Again… give me a fucking break.
The Big Lie continues! UNBELIEVABLE!
Lol I understand metaphors dude, and those battles are not the modern warfare we see today, this is an eternal debate anyway, the issue of women in combat is being decided right now by the COS anyway, like it or not, he supports the idea, and I have been trying to be nice, unless you happen to be that nasty, sloppy ass troll posting as OG
buster, I don’t even know where to begin, so I’ll start with the kill class and just see what goes from there. No kill class? I’m faced with a choice here, either our FSG at AIT was also mistaken when he went off on a twenty minute rant about this being cut (the official reason was health and sanitation concerns about the animals being used), prior graduates of the course are delusional, and someone generated a whole lot of photos and videos of power-belt wearing AIT students skinning rabbits and plucking chickens as part of the final FTX, or you are mistaken on this matter. But lets set that aside, because you are correct I have no prior experience with AIT before 2007. So lets look at it since then. In the 2007, we did two ruck marches a week. Our shortest was the first week, and was a 5K at a hellacious pace. Our longest was 16K completed by team in under four hours. Each team had a manpack in addition to our rucks. The last group to return from AIT did zero rucks. We were scheduled to do Nasty NIC, but due to a scheduling conflict ended up at the 82nd Airborne obstacle course. The returning group…neither. PT, we did about a thrid of our PT in boots and utes. This was mostly log runs, woods runs, getting dirty in the mud and muck. When we did PT in PT’s it was the same PT activities we did at BCT or ability group runs. Now it’s all Army PT all the time. I’ll say I enjoyed the more creative PT we did, but its likely a wash, no harder or no easier than what is done now, other than the teamwork aspect. PT test, my graduation standards were 210 (70 in each event, or 60 in each event in the 17-21 age group) plus 10 pull ups (5 for females) (to be honest they didn’t care if you did pull ups or chin ups). Current graduation standards are 180 (60 in each event) no pull/chin ups. Weapons training.… Read more »
@85 “and those battles are not the modern warfare we see today”
So women are able to fight the “modern battles” but not the type of battles in the past? That is weak and a NO/GO… and it proves my point. Sometimes you just can’t pick and choose your wars and battles… and sometimes get stuck in the shit. No I’m not trying to be PC (nice)… just direct. Being naive (yes PCing of the military) relating to combat readiness leads to one thing… death to our soldiers and defeat on the battlefield.
Making women F-14 pilots (read up on that one), paratroopers, “Special Operations” etc…looks good on paper, but in reality it is a joke and a big lie.
Just be’in real.