The case for concealed carry
A Philly man, Mark Fiorino, gets arrested for open carrying his .40 caliber Glock legally. I read the article first and was outraged until I listened to the audio. The guy was a bit of a smartass and when a cop tells you to get on the ground, just do it. Tell your story from down there.
Old Trooper who sent us the link had the same experience that I did in my concealed carry block of instruction. The instructor is a state trooper who told the class that if he saw one of us walking down the street with an open carried weapon, he’d stop us and check us out.
This guy, Fiorino, was a dick to police, though. I don’t blame the police for treating him like they did until they verified his intentions…but quoting laws and acting like a general prick doesn’t win him any points.
Anyway, the district attorney has charged the guy;
A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney’s Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police… He’s scheduled for trial in July.
If he had been carrying his weapon concealed, all of this could have been avoided. Pennsylvania is a “shall issue” state.
Category: Guns
You may be right about it all being avoidable, but since he was performing a legal action, it could have also been avoided by the officer not being a badge happy jackass too.
One of the biggest issues I have with the “libertarian” and “Free State” types in NH. They just don’t know when to stop being dicks.
While the officer may have been a badge happy yahoo; they are obligated to check you out. That’s the nature of the beast and the gentleman should have followed the instructions of the officer at that time. There is plenty of time after to lecture the officer on the law. Even though it is legal to open carry (same here in Minnesota if you have your carry permit), there is going to be someone that calls the police, it happens every time. The police arrive to check it out and if you are properly permitted to carry, they will send you on your way. The DA, if he is a prick, might want to push it and charge you, after the fact, with something like “disturbing the peace”. They have done so before, so it doesn’t suprise me that chuckles, here, got tagged with that.
I choose not to open carry, because I don’t want the hassle, but to each his own and if you choose to open carry, then expect to have the po-po roll up on you. Just do as they say and avoid this kind of thing.
I’m a detective in Philly and have been on the job for 17 years. Does my town hire idiots? Of course. But with 117 homicides right now – and climbing – officers are always going to stop someone open carrying. It’s just prudent to check. This guy was kind of a dick, but despite what our department legal eagle says, officers aren’t schooled in open carry laws.
Yes, there is a directive on the matter, but most cops here only read them when they’re studying for promotion. Like I said, we hire our fair share of idiots.
“This guy was kind of a dick, but despite what our department legal eagle says, officers aren’t schooled in open carry laws….Yes, there is a directive on the matter, but most cops here only read them when they’re studying for promotion.”
Ignorance Of The Law Is No Excuse.
Exactly, WE. The police are obligated to check you out, period. That’s why I choose not to open carry, I don’t want the hassle, even though I’m legal to do so. Our permit is called a “Carry Permit” which means you can go either way any time. Someone that doesn’t think the police are going to question them for openly carrying isn’t the sharpest tool in the drawer, either.
I will say this, though, the statistics of those who are properly permitted going out and committing crimes is almost nil. Of the 117 murders in Philly this year, so far; how many of those were committed by legal permit holders?
“Someone that doesn’t think the police are going to question them for openly carrying isn’t the sharpest tool in the drawer, either.”
Never happens to me down here in Virginia. Then again our cops probably look at somebody like me and think “Well, that guy is carrying a firearm in a manner consistent with all state and local laws and is committing no crimes and thus I have no real reason to bother him and will utilize my resources elsewhere.”
Of course, Philly sucks and Virginia does not.
Hey, I’ve lived in places where 16-year old kids were carrying rifles in their trucks from deer hunting that morning, or would be after school. Nary a word was said. Then again, I’ve also lived in lib havens where the mere mention of the word “gun” would send people all a-flutter.
Philly definitely falls closer to the latter description.
Yup, In Maine, in the 33 years I have lived here, I have never heard of the Police stopping someone for open carry, or for having a weapon openly displayed in a vehicle rear window, etc.
Maine is also a “shall issue” state, and even the majority of leftists up here support that. There are no permits or registration required, nor any licensing, except for concealed carry, though as I said, LE Departments are required to issue a concealed permit upon application, providing no Federal or State law prohibits the individual from owning a firearm.
I read about this and listened to the audio awhile back. The guy was a tool and was probably looking for trouble. I took the CHL class in Texas to carry. That doens’t mean I’m gonna go looking for trouble, or walking down a dark alley alone that I wouldn’t normally go down, just because I’m carrying. While his carry wasn’t illegal, he could have handled it way differently.
Its pretty clear he should have complied, “don’t know who you are, don’t move, shut up”, “get down on your knees” then sort everything out. 117 murders so far in Philly? Good luck convincing a judge you didn’t set the whole thing up in order to have an open carry confrontation with the po-po, jackass.
@Spade, yessir I was thinking the same thing. I occasionally open carry here in VA and never have had a problem. Mostly I conceal though if I’m going out to eat … we’ve had some restrictive carry laws over the years where entering restaurants that serve alcohol are concerned.
The first thing I thought when listening to the audio, Fiorio was definitely in error for not listening to the SGT when told to get down on his knees. At that point he should have STFU and dropped. As others have posted, the time for debating/educating on the law was later on during the investigation. OTOH, the cop was a dick as well and handled the situation poorly. His attitude definitely escalated the incident far beyond what it should have been.
The 117 murders fail to be the problem of this guy or any other civilian. Not his/their fault the cops can’t do anything about it. You don’t give up your rights just because the cops can’t do their job. Hell, probably make their job easier if they didn’t need warrants. Let’s toss that section too.
Also, wouldn’t have had an “open carry confrontation” if the cops had (1)followed the law and (2)followed their internal department directives.
#14 Spade,
Which law, and which directive? There are so many, and Philadelphia is just one place, that cops in most places can’t keep up.
When one becomes over-regulated, one resorts to ‘if it feels right, do it.’ Questioning a person about their openly-carried firearm isn’t a crime, and in the absence of information (knowledge of the rules and regs) may be the right thing to do.
“Which law, and which directive? There are so many, and Philadelphia is just one place, that cops in most places can’t keep up.”
Ignorance Of The Law Is No Excuse.
@ 14- Spade? Would you please take the rose colored glasses off your nose, amigo. It is practically impossible for any police officer to know every law, regulation & rule on the books right off the top of their head.
Not my problem.
That’s the standard us civilians are held to. If they can’t handle it they can find another line of work.
It’s legal in PA to open carry without a permit except in Philadelphia. You think the cop in the video would take, “well, it’s impossible for me to know every law, regulation, and rule” as an excuse from a civilian found open carrying without a permit?
Sorry to break it to you, but ignorance of the law is an excuse. It is called qualified immunity and it only applies to government employees.
Ok, he was a smartass and the officer was justified in stopping him, questioning him, and being a dick back. But, I think the DA is taking it a bit far. Is the Philly judicial system done with all of the muder, rape, drug, etc cases that resources are available to charge someone with being an asshole?
There is *NO* excuse for the cop being a “dick.” Period!
And ignorance of the law is no excuse, even for the tax sucking scum bag wearing the badge. Cops, prosecutors and judges are the biggest scoff laws in our society, and they cover each other’s back.
The man may have had a chip on his shoulder, but the cop is supposed to be a professional. Nice to see that he couldn’t be an adult either. Even worse, neither can the prosecutor apparently.
If you cops that posted above want to understand why the rest of the civilian world has little respect for you, go listen to the Philly cop again. Listen well, because he is utterly unworthy of respect. Those who cover for them are also utterly unworthy of respect.
So, the “rest of the civilian world has little respect” for “tax sucking scumbags wearing the badge”? My, my, how many run-ins have you had with the law, QM?
A right is a right. One needs no permision to exercise it. When the police are allowed to interfere with someones ability to exersise their rights it is usually refered to as tyrany.
@#22- UpNorth, I will bet you a cold beer (or your preferred drink of choice) that ‘ol QM here had problems with the MP’s or SP’s and it’s carried over to his civilian life too.
“If he had been carrying his weapon concealed, all of this could have been avoided. Pennsylvania is a “shall issue” state.”
I have a valid CCW from PA. IIRC, it cost me $20, is good for 5 years, and I got it through the mail while stationed in Kansas. It only required a copy of my PA drivers license, Military ID, and orders.
As for the cop not knowing the laws, how is he supposed to honestly serve and protect when he does not know the law? Like the law that says a person carrying concealed, with a CCW, is NOT required or obligated to inform a LEO at any time? Is the cop also now expected to know traffic laws? Domestic assault laws? Is it okay if he doesn’t pay attention to drug laws?
Maybe if he followed this train of thought: Hey, that guy has a gun. In the open. But he isn’t doing anything belligerent with it. I can plainly see the gun, and so can everyone else. I don’t know if it’s illegal or not, but then again, he isn’t bothering anyone.”
Of course, if cops used that train of thought more often, we’d have far fewer issues with police abusing power than we do. Maybe he is covered by “ignorance” but he certainly isn’t covered by “Color of Law,” TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 242
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000242—-000-.html
There are two trains getting ready for a major collision. Law Enforcement Culture and the Law Abiding Citizen. In the past twenty years cops have been taught that they are the supreme authority on the street, that they cannot be held liable for their actions and that anyone who doubts their authority is a criminal and deserves to be booked, printed and DNA’ed. More and more LEOs are getting called out for being rude, crude, careless and unprofessional. For those of you LEOs who aren’t of this slant, you are quickly losing the opportunity to prevent the society that your protect from taking away the authority you are granted.
BTW I have never been arrested. I have been shot by a criminal and I study history.
Streetsweeper@24, no bets, at all.
I agree that you are supposed to follow the instructions of a LEO when given. However, since when is it okay for cops to berate, verbally abuse or curse at someone like they are some tin-horned, high-school bully? I mean if that is the only way you can do your job, then quit. To my knowledge, NO ONE has ever been FORCED into being a LEO in the US during peace time.
I say all this because if LEOs would treat everyone with respect, the real criminals would stick out like a sore thumb and LEOs would get the respect they deserve.
Oh, and SD. I was taught early on that I was responsible for my actions, that I would be held liable for my actions, if I was wrong.
Some folks here just go ballistic when they’re lumped in with the likes of Spc Jeremy Morlock, Andrew Holmes, SSG Calvin Gibbs or yet have no problem whatever, with lumping every LEO in the country in with the likes of the asshats from the Pima Co. SWAT team, or the dipstick sheriff in Indiana.
One sample is not indicative of the entire force, or profession. It’s a broad brush that I shouldn’t have used. That being said, I find it horrific that police are seldom held accountable for their abuses (see LAPD, et al.)
I don’t think all cops are bad. Just the ones with moustaches.
As with every profession; you have good and bad. We have asked those in islam, that don’t like what the radicals are doing, to take care of their own and to speak out against them. We hear very little. We are now faced with a situation where police are getting very aggressive towards those they are supposed to “protect and serve”. We need the police to take care of it, not defend it, find excuses for it, etc. It’s not as random and isolated as one thinks. It happens a lot and I could list several examples off the top of my head. I could also list examples of cops being professional, part of the community, trusted, etc. I have friends that are State Troopers, I have relatives that are cops. However, I have noticed that law enforcement has gotten more full of themselves and taken on that aggressive posture over the last 10-15 years; why? I watched a video, yesterday, where a 17 year old kid was video taping a police officer in public. The cop asked him if he needed help and the kid explained that he was filming for a news story for a website. The officer immediately arrested him, handcuffed him, said he was being charged with interferring with an officer and was escorted into the police station. The kid was placed in an interview room with 2 officers who were questioning him. Another officer came in and identified himself as the arresting officer’s supervisor and asked the kid where he thinks he has the right to film an officer. The kid mentions that North Dakota State law and the 1st Amendment to the Constitution say he can film anything he wants in public. They kept him handcuffed in the room for over an hour before releasing him. No call to his parents (he’s a minor), no Miranda rights, etc., just pure intimidation and false imprisonment, because the cops didn’t like being taped and didn’t know the law, or knew the law but figured the kid didn’t. That’s what is setting up the “us versus them”… Read more »
Old Trooper, well said. I’ve known good LE, and I’ve lived where the local police raised the blue wall of silence around a child molester. Raised it to the point of going after the victim, and anyone who stood up for the victim. It was well known that if you got on that departments s**t list, you probably should just move. Your quote:
“If the police want to earn back the respect of the public, as a whole, then they need to clean up their ranks and stop with the “I’m the supreme ruler” attitude and get back to “I’m a public servant” mentality and “protect and serve” not “bully and intimidate”.”
hits it on the head. It used to be that I gave any LE the benefit of the doubt in all situations. Today, not so much sad to say.
I appreciate the desire to give the involved officers the benefit of the doubt, but a LEO should consider initiating contact with his weapon drawn and demanding that the citizen get on the ground.
If I am engaged in lawful activity and am not presenting an immediate threat and an officer wants me to get on my knees, I think I’m going to have a problem with that escalation of force.
Depending on the theater and threat level, we’re routinely trained on how to encounter militia, SOI, bodyguards etc. who are armed and potentially threatening. If we can do that in a war zone, I think the Philadelphia police can do it stateside.
A guy that I consider a friend, who is now retired from the police force, was old school in his duties as a cop. The local high school kids and young adults didn’t like him, but did respect him. He treated them different than others, more like a father figure. If you were screwing up, chances are you got a lecture rather than being handcuffed, depending on what you were doing. He treated people with respect and kicked their ass if needed. Those kids that didn’t like him when they were younger, looked back with fondness later, because they saw he was actually looking out for them. I witnessed both sides of him, as an observer, both the lecturer and the ass kicker. He had no qualms with handing out an ass whoopin when it was called for (Vietnam combat Vet), but he didn’t come across as a hardass all the time to everyone. That made him effective in doing his job, because people were more than willing to talk to him and tell him things they wouldn’t tell other cops. Intel is key and he would get more than most. I met him as an adult, but he reminded me of several cops I knew as a teen.
One time, I was in a car accident in rush hour, where another car rear-ended me. It was Winter and I had just picked up my daughter from daycare. He happened to be the cop on the scene and as we were sitting in his car filling out the report, the guy who hit me was whining about the front end of his car being smashed and the time that this was all taking. He replied back to the guy “Hey, he had his little girl in the back seat of the car you hit, so I think you should probably be thinking about that, instead”. Of course, my daughter was sitting in his lap as he filled out the accident report.
I think that is what is missing a lot today; cops like that.
@Chuck Z “One sample is not indicative of the entire force, or profession. It’s a broad brush that I shouldn’t have used.”
Dude, it’s Philly. We’ve got way more than one sample. Feel free to use a brush a mile wide.
As for the gun law ignorance, seems weird that there’s too many laws for Philly cops to keep track of (the excuse used here) but cops in the rest of the state and other states (like VA) don’t seem to have that problem.