“Their struggle is your struggle”
Cortillaen and ROS sent this link to the Washington Post this morning about Lieutenant General John Kelly. Both Cortillaen and ROS included that this type of article is a rare appearance in the Post.
“Their struggle is your struggle,” he told the ballroom crowd of former Marines and local business people. “If anyone thinks you can somehow thank them for their service, and not support the cause for which they fight – our country – these people are lying to themselves. . . . More important, they are slighting our warriors and mocking their commitment to this nation.”
Kelly is the most senior U.S. military officer to lose a son or daughter in Iraq or Afghanistan. He was giving voice to a growing concern among soldiers and Marines: The American public is largely unaware of the price its military pays to fight the United States’ distant conflicts. Less than 1 percent of the population serves in uniform at a time when the country is engaged in one of the longest periods of sustained combat in its history.
You really need to read the entire piece – it’s also rare that I recommend that in the Post, but there’s no way that I can tell the story as well as it’s told by Greg Jaffe, the Post reporter.
I’ll just say this; there is a huge disconnect between the troops and the rest of Americans. It’s probably the fault of the length of this war and the millions of detractors of the politics leading up to this war and through out the war. It’s certainly not the fault of veterans of previous wars who’ve stepped into the information gap created by petty politics. Not me, of course, but the thousands of real milbloggers, the Gathering of Eagles, the American Legion Riders, the Patriot Guard Riders and so on.
I’m just a late-comer who glommed on to the rest of these folks.
Category: Military issues, Support the troops, Veterans Issues
If you can read the story without the pollen getting to your eyes, you have no soul.
You were right, Susan.
Awareness comes through media coverage, in all its forms. You can forget the Established Media types, so the other forms have to be used — and are, actually. That’s why I, for one, read the milblogs and some of the conservative sites. It’s my way of trying to keep up with what is going on and getting accurate information about our troops and what is happening with them.
Wow, what an incredibly powerful speech. 🙁
Thank you for pointing out the obvious, sadly the left just does not get it.
Thanks for your Service, and for the constant information about what is really going on inside and out with our Military families.
I almost never read the Washington Post. Thank you for posting this Jonn, and changing my mind for today. Agree with Susan, PN, Jacobite, and Patrick B.
Key sentence for me:
“…Combat is so inhumane; you must help your men maintain their humanity as well as their sense of perspective and proportion.”
This is something our opponents on the Progressive Left did not learn during their military service; and do not foster among those who’ve never served: perspective, proportion, and discernment.
Reminds me that Memorial Day is coming up soon enough.
“Later, (Kelly) clarified in an interview that he is opposed to indifference, not dissent…”
– Many of the contributors to this site should take that statement to heart. Too often (always?) you conflate the two. You buy into the “You’re either for us or against us” canard. If only things were so simple.
‘ “I worry that we could wake up one day and that the American people will no longer know us, and we won’t know them” Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, wrote in January.’
– Historically, always a risk with a professional military. When certain spokespeople insist on putting the military on a pedestal and stress the superiority, moral and otherwise, of military personnel, they only serve to widen that gap. In my father’s war, WWII, the servicemen and women and the everyday Americans were one and the same, and most of them were proud of the equivalency. I know in my Dad’s case, he strongly resisted any idea that he and his shipmates were somehow special, he thought of himself as a regular American jut doing his job.
Um, Joey, we always though “dissent” was patriotic, didn’t one of the left tell us that? It’s just that you don’t like dissent now, because your guy is in power.
And, with your tearful paens to the poor, you seem to always buy into the “you’re either for us or against us” canard.
And, you and Adm Mullen don’t have to worry, I’ll definitely know you. And, you won’t even have to carry a sign, like you and yours usually do.
Joe blows: “In my father’s war, WWII, the servicemen and women and the everyday Americans were one and the same”
I have one word for you, Joe m’ boy: Draft.
Mull it over as best you can.
Oh, and the former congressman, Skelton, got it wrong. He should have said, those who are protected, are psychologically divorced from those who do the protecting.
The U.S. military is at war, the rest of the country has gone to the mall, or a Lady GaGa concert.
Joe, sometimes you miss golden opportunities to be quiet and hide your insensitivity. This is one of those cases. This is a beautiful story about a man who still loves this country and believes it is worth fighting for despite horrible personal loss.
As to the dissent crap – dissent and differences of opinion are part of a free society. I welcome them and so does the General. The question is not about dissent – it is about how that dissent is voiced. Crass behaviour at high volume is not dissent, it is just crass. Continued demonstrations are not dissent, they are simply exercises in malignant narcissism. Dissent requires proposing a realistic alternative. So please go away and come up with a plan that works in the real world where asking despots nicely is not realistic, and where fanatics don’t give up their beliefs because of the power of your words. Then come back and I will listen. Until then, please just go away.
gawd damn it! i forgot to check to lock on Joeys cell door…
Cortillean,
I’m all for the resumption of the draft for a number of reasons. It would re-democratize the military and move us away from a professional class of warriors. And with everyone required to serve, it would make some previously apathetic people pay more attention to our foreign policy…..
“It would re-democratize the military and move us away from a professional class of warriors.”
I know what you MEANT by that, but it’s not what you SAID.
First of all, the military is more democratized (to use your word) now than it would be in a draft, since only volunteers serve. It would not be democratic to force people to serve: some who wanted to serve couldn’t, some who didn’t want to serve would have to, you see? That’s not democratic at all, since free will is not part of it.
A Professional Class of Warriors: With every other profession, the military has become more specialized. If there ever was a day when illiterate, uneducated individuals could succeed in the military, it’s gone now. The demands made on a modern soldier parallel and even exceed what is required in some advanced education curriculum. You simply cannot throw just anyone in there and think they will succeed; they won’t.
@#12
As evidenced by past conflicts, a mixed conscript/professional military would also expose our country to greater numbers of casualties both among the professional warrior class and amongst the conscripts. Are you seriously proposing we accept greater risk to the nation, and higher numbers of war dead Joe?
History also says your ‘apathy’ arguments is false, threat of a draft would have no practicle political effect at all.
Let me try that one again, sheesh.
“History also says your ‘apathy’ argument is false, threat of a draft would have no practical political effect at all.”
Typing to fast over here, lol.
Joe, To your dad: thank you sir, for your service! That’s the same sentiment many soldiers share when shouldering the Nation’s load. Joe, you wrote “[w]hen certain spokespeople insist on putting the military on a pedestal and stress the superiority, moral and otherwise, of military personnel, they only serve to widen that gap.” Yes, that is true. The same psychology goes for Charlie Sheen and our POTUS. Most of the soldiers are just ordinary people doing extraordinary things. So who is the target of such rhetoric that widens gaps? Progressives are the primary target. They are told from birth they are never good enough. Whether the issue is saving for retirement to military service, they lack that “it” which separates them from us joes that just do it. One can discuss how the attributes of superiority, morality, and such are tethers into the hearts and minds of professional military men and women; but first one must acknowledge why we describe our military thusly. We, as Americans and therefore with a shared history of dealing with inferior, immoral/amoral militaries, saw and see the need to ensure we are not preyed upon by those with power. The riots and crime in Kenya, with soldiers and police going on rampages; or the genocides of Bosnia and Rwanda are real, and part of America’s collective conscious. We don’t want a Rwanda here. Second point: In WWII, American society classed all of its males into four categories: fit for service, unfit for service, unfit for service due to age, and had already served. Men who were fit for service and didn’t serve were treated like dirt. Men who were unfit for service were reminded in explicit and implicit ways that they, like Progressives, weren’t good enough. The young tried to enlist as soon as they could, as did older Americans. The average age of a soldier was 29. Those that had served their time in combat, had the points and were brought home had parades, bennies, and were treated as heroes. Right, wrong, or otherwise that’s how it was in America Joe. The question of… Read more »
move us away from a professional class of warriors
And back to the days of MacNamara’s 100,000. Thanks, but no thanks.
Thanks, Joe, for turning a perfectly sound article about the loss of a man’s son among everyone else who’s sacrificed into some pissing match about whether the military is the good guy or bad.
You’re such a fucking douche. What have you sacrificed?
ROS, Dutifully reading the article that was linked to this posting, Admiral Mullen’s words hit me hard – here’s a guy who sees the big picture. I’ll post his words again: “I worry that we could wake up one day and that the American people will no longer know us, and we won’t know them.” I have already reached that point, in part because of my interactions on this site. I sure understand that “you don’t know me” – that half of the equation is obvious. When I first stumbled upon TAH, I had the greatest respect and admiration for our military men and women and thought this site would give me more insight into the mindset that makes them so courageous and selfless. But after reading, posting, and taking a whole lot of verbal abuse, I appreciate Adm. Mullen’s words. I’m generalizing here, but most of you want to be loved and admired, but are quick on the trigger to, well, abuse anyone who disagrees with your world view. You serve your country, but seem to despise most of its inhabitants. You rail against gov’t and union entitlements….until someone threatens to cut yours. Then YOUR sense of superiority and entitlement rears its ugly head. In spite of this, and more, I still respect and admire alot of you in spite of yourselves. So if you want a small window into how a regular, non-military person sees the professional class of servicemen/women, I’m giving it to you, and so is Adm. Mullen. Then there’s this quote from Kelly: “If anyone thinks you can somehow thank them for their service, and not support the cause for which they fight – our country – these people are lying to themselves. . . . More important, they are slighting our warriors and mocking their commitment to this nation.” I refuse to let Kelly or anyone else paint me into that kind of corner. To me, the Iraq war will always be a disaster of gigantic proportions, a historic case of overreaching, a huge boondoogle, a crime of immense proportions. I initially bought into… Read more »
Okay, Joe…before ROS bitch slaps you into the middle of next year, I’m going to call BS on your admiration of military personnel. You don’t believe in their mission, methods, or thought processes. What DO you like about them? Their fashion sense?
Am I missing something? Servicemembers put on a pedestal? You ever been to a VA Hospital? Veterans are looked down upon as a bunch of red neck freaks who can’t make it in civilian life where I am from one of the reasons I got out, I am not risking life and limb anymore for a scoiety that doesn’t care about it’s military. And one last thing to Joe the reason these dudes get so bent out of shape when VA Benefits get cut is because nobody else will, if it wasn’t for veterans standing up for other veterans the VA wouldn’t exist. If it were up to the politicians and public at large the VA would have been gone a long time ago.
PintoNag,
I think many military personnel were sold the same bill of goods by Bush and Co. that I, and most of the rest of the country, were hoodwinked by. As the real truth has come out, it has became apparent how we have been deceived and lied to. Due perhaps to a trusting nature, or being imprinted by the Pavlovian marketing buzzwords “Freedom” or “Liberty”, or a misplaced sense of what patriotism is, they still buy into the lies. Combine the huge military-industrial marketing machine with the tendency of men to “see what they want to see and disregard the rest”, it is understandable that many still buy into the toxic myth that we had to invade Iraq. I do respect the idea that Emmanuel Kant proposed, that when judging a person, motivations are more important than outcomes, and I feel that these men and women truly believe they are doing (did) the right thing at great peril to themselves. So I can still respect their selfless motivation even though I deplore the war itself.
Just for the record, Tellis, I think the committment made to vets should be honored at whatever cost. Please raise my taxes so that the vets get what they deserve. I would gladly pay it if I knew it was actually going to get to the deserving recepients. Having said that, states also made committments to teacher’s, firefighter’s and police unions, and those should be honored. In a bicycle shop I worked at a lifetime ago, there was a sign in the service department: “Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on our part”. Likewise with poor and deceptive planning at the state and federal levels – they made the committments – now honor them. If you want to readjust the parameters with an eye towards the future, then negotiate those changes. But don’t go back on your previous committments to the people who make this country work – vets and others.
In typical circle jerk fashion, Joey makes the article about one man’s sacrifice a paen to unions and union members. And, manages to toe the Obumbler line that it’s Bush’s fault. Extra points for throwing in the Organizing for America talking points Joey.
Tell me again, Joey, what did Jawn F’ing Kerry, BJ Clinton and the rest of the dems say in the runup to Iraq? And, be sure to provide links to your denials that they approved of it.
Because there about 1,770,000 Google links to just Jawn F’ing Kerry and his vote to authorize the use of force against Saddam.
Not minimizing the sacrifice, just commenting on some of the explicit and implicit assumptions embedded in the article, and esp. Kelly’s comments. It was someone else who brought up vets benefits, and from there it’s a short hop to other working people’s benefits.
Straight to the point here Joe…… “but most of you want to be loved and admired” No, you miss it completely, most of us want to be respected and left alone. ”quick on the trigger to, well, abuse anyone who disagrees with your world view” Because most of those commenting on us and our experiences that we disagree with already have us ‘pigeon holed’ while having absolutely no idea of what they are talking about. ”You serve your country, but seem to despise most of its inhabitants.” No, we despise those that talk as experts about things they no nothing about. And that doesn’t even begin to rise to the level of ‘most’ of its inhabitants ”You rail against gov’t and union entitlements….until someone threatens to cut yours.” No, you are mischaracterizing our benefits of service as unearned entitlements, they are not the same thing. ”YOUR sense of superiority and entitlement rears its ugly head” Well son, like it or not every person in this country owes their opportunities and way of life to what might best be described as the three percenters, look it up. You’re currently able to even argue these issues because one percent or less of the current population decided to take the burden of your safety on their shoulders. If we shouldn’t be at the head of the soup line you tell me who deserves to be there more. There isn’t another occupation in the country that’s more vital to it’s survival, plain and simple. ”So if you want a small window into how a regular, non-military person sees the professional class of servicemen/women, I’m giving it to you,” Wrong again, at best you are giving us a picture of how maybe 40% of the non-military population sees us. And I feel I’m being generous with that figure, I personally feel it’s probably much, much lower. ”I refuse to let Kelly or anyone else paint me into that kind of corner.” Tough, I don’t recall anyone asking you. You are simply what you are, if you don’t like the categorization, become something else. Saying something… Read more »
My apologies for the typos above, Ya ya, I see them, so sue me. 😀
Yeah, when I’m on a roll I make typing mistakes too….
OK Jacobite, we won’t grade you on spelling since I usually make a whole lot more typos than anyone else. Where to begin? – Benefits? Entitlements? Maybe I used the wrong word, but people in other lines of work EARNED theirs too. Your insistence on being at the head of the line hints at your subtle sense of elitism. Not that you don’t deserve them, it’s just that your sense of superiority is revealing. – ”So if you want a small window into how a regular, non-military person sees the professional class of servicemen/women, I’m giving it to you, so is Adm. Mullen.” He is astute enought to see the growing chasm between regular Americans and the professional military. As someone noted above somewhere (can’t seem to find it now), the professional military selects for certain demographics, and so perhaps the military drifts further and further away from representing a true cross-section of America. He recognizes that. – ”I refuse to let Kelly or anyone else paint me into that kind of corner.” Basically, what he said was a recycled version of George Bush’s “You’re either with us or against us”. Not nearly so simple. – As far as Kant goes, I appreciate his insight into human ethics/morals, but as far as religion goes, he lived in the 18th century, so I’ll forgive him his religious bias. Atheists didn’t exist in those days. – “…gives no support to the idea that it’s ok to support an entity while disagreeing with that entity’s purpose, use or actions” I CAN disagree (huge understatement) with the actions taken by its commander in chief, without holding a grudge against the rank and file members. Soldiers after all are not supposed to question their orders, they’re supposed to carry them out, and most do with the best of intentions (see Kant). I can and do make the distinction between, say, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfiwitz, and the other neocon leaders, and the soldier down in the trenches. Kelly’s “You’re with us or against us” quote is an attempt to take away my ability to think for… Read more »
I want you to go tell my Pop, the man who served 3 tours in Vietnam, is missing several inches of intestine, gets malaria every year, has metal fragments throughout the front of his leg, lives in guilt because of my Agent Orange damage as if it’s his fault, still wakes up in cold sweats 40 years later, was spit on and had dog feces thrown at him when he returned, has been called every name in the book, etc. that veterans are put on a pedestal.
You really are a worthless piece of shit, Joe. You really are. I’m not sure what gas they’re breathing on your planet, but it’s obviously fatal to logic and rationale.
ROS,
I’m probably about his age, I was protesting the war at that time, but I always made the distinction between people like Robert McNamara and you father. I never took part in any of the detestable actions you mention. I have a number of friends that are Viet Nam vets. Maybe if McNamara had walked within range….. My point is that some vets would put themselves on a pedestal, and a sense of elitism and superiority permeates many of the comments on this website. The vet I knew best, my dad, who fought in many of the bloodiest battles in the Pacific, did not set foot on American soil for over three years during the war, was an intelligent but humble man. All he wanted was to be a regular American guy, doing his fair share, never lorded his impressive service record over others, never even talked about his experiences until I pried it out of him late in his life. I think I can safely say he would be appalled at some of the opinions expressed by vets on this site. That’s my basis for comparision. To me, the true champions are the most humble. They let their actions speak for themselves, have a quiet confidence that comes from self-knowledge and a job well done, don’t blow their own horn.
Many difficult professions have their own ingrained myths (with a lot of truth in them) that seemingly need to be perpetuated – firefighters, policemen and women, even teachers. But the myths don’t have to come with a built-in sense of superiority.
Joe, at least one of the problems you have with us, or we have with you, is that huge amounts of information are being condensed into a very small area, and dealing with that cogently is an enormous effort. I sometimes think we’d all make a lot better sense to each other if we could all meet at a really nice Italian restaurant, eat a lot of pasta, drink some really good wine, and talk until we closed the joint.
Oh, and the verbal abuse you get? That’s just our way of telling you that you frustrate the shit out of us, but we think it’s important to talk with you anyway. You probably have noticed that while you might get dog-piled, you never get ignored! 😉
I agree with you PN, on your supper idea. Joe, at least, doesn’t come across as a robo-troll one usually finds on the net.
Got the latest VFW magazine in the mail and noticed the young man’s name on the list, along with a lot of Marines and joes.
In related news, a bill is making its way through Congress to require the staff at Arlington make a full accounting of the remains.
There is a report of upwards of 11,000 PLA soldiers in Pakistan. That’ll piss off India, and piss on us.
PintoNag,
Once again you cut thru the static and make a great point. On the supper thing, too bad we live (presumably) thousands of miles apart. The medium does influence the direction our discussions take, maybe in a counter-productive way. And as to frustration, after my interchanges yesterday, I got on my bike and did a couple of hours and a couple of thousand vertical feet, pounding the pedals and obsessing about TAH the whole damn time. At least my frustration helped me get a good workout…..
“subtle sense of elitism” I wasn’t being subtle, when it comes to what’s owed I openly and unapologetically believe servicemen and women are deserving of the highest honors as professionals and for their direct contributions. I’ve been a firefighter, I have LEOs in the family, both of these things are incredibly important and deserving of respect, their benefits are NOT what anyone here is advocating cutting. But honestly, while life would be worse without them, America could survive in their absence, and in fact has. I have the utmost respect for good teachers, I believe in most instances they are compensated way below their worth. By and large their benefits are not what we are griping about either. But honestly, while life would be worse without them, America could survive in their absence, and in fact has. All the way back to our founding one thing is certain, without that one percent or so of the population being in the military we would have NO nation. Elitism? You bet. The entitlements we gripe about the most concern two things. One, over compensated public servants in a bloated bureaucracy, and two, out of control welfare. When the compensation is out of proportion to the contribution to society there’s a huge problem. However, based on the ‘elite’ nature of military service, most of us here believe military members are wayyyy under compensated, and we also seem to be one of the first places our government looks to, to trim spending. Our government, you know, the one ‘by the people’? Is it really any wonder to you why old veterans seem like they have a hard on for civilians, or are at least ambivalent about their opinions? “”I refuse to let Kelly or anyone else paint me into that kind of corner.” Basically, what he said was a recycled version of George Bush’s “You’re either with us or against us”. Not nearly so simple.” Ya Joe, it really is that simple, and I have more respect for those who simply jump down on the ‘against us’ side of the fence then I ever… Read more »
Jacobite,
Have a little familiarity with the Atomists in Greece, didn’t think it correlated directly with atheism, but never even heard of C?rv?ka? or the Kaitokud. To my untrained eye, they don’t even look like real words……
Carvaka, sorry, its an early form of Indian philosophical skepticism, not a part of orthodox Hinduism.
And the Kaitokudo School taught an early form of Japanese Buddhism lacking any metaphysical beliefs. Some scholars believe it’s based on the earliest and least polluted form of Buddhism.
Thank you Jacobite. Have a terrific weekend everyone, if you get the weekend off, or even if you don’t…..