Convert to electric they say, it’ll be easy they say….

| July 19, 2023

As you contemplate the ugliness of buying an internal combustion car with its attendant woes of relatively cheap fuel, convenient refilling, easy repair availability, and light weight compared to its competitors – take heart. Those hard to charge cars? Cheap solar roofs? Blips on the radar screen, my son.

A recent report from UBS estimates that global car production will exceed sales by 6% this year, leaving an excess of 5 million vehicles that will require price cuts to get sold off of lots, Yahoo Finance reported.

EV makers might take a major hit due to the combination of soaring energy costs and high prices that put many consumers out of reach, Yahoo Finance noted.  GO Banking Rates

Markets are softening, largely due to large quantities of unsold vehicles, of which:

The nationwide supply of EVs in stock has swelled nearly 350% this year, to more than 92,000 units.  That’s a 92-day supply — roughly three months’ worth of EVs, and nearly twice the industry average. For comparison, dealers have a relatively low 54 days’ worth of gasoline-powered vehicles in inventory as they rebound from pandemic-related supply chain interruptions.  Axios.com

But there are always those cheap Chinese EVs coming:

China has emerged as the global powerhouse in electric vehicle manufacturing and sales. But there might be a dark side to its rise. A recent video showcases enormous fields filled with thousands of abandoned Chinese electric cars.  InsideEVs.com

(I’d take that latter with a grain of salt, but the allegation exists.)

But we want all the batteries and makin’s we can get, right? Heck yea… unless those supplies exist in an inconvenient spot.

The world’s richest known lithium deposit lies deep in the woods of western Maine, in a yawning, sparkling mouth of white and brown rocks that looks like a landslide carved into the side of Plumbago Mountain.

Mary Freeman and her husband Gary found the deposit five years ago while hunting for tourmaline, a striking, multi-colored gemstone found in the region.

This is one of the few lithium deposits in the U.S. currently found in hard rock, which means it is higher-quality and faster to process than lithium mined from brine.

What’s not to like?

Maine has some of the strictest mining and water quality standards in the country, and prohibits digging for metals in open pits larger than three acres. There have not been any active metal mines in the state for decades, and no company has applied for a permit since a particularly strict law passed in 2017. As more companies begin prospecting in Maine and searching for sizable nickel, copper, and silver deposits, towns are beginning to pass their own bans on industrial mining.

There is only one operational lithium mine in the U.S., in Nevada, and one operational rare earth element mine, in Mountain Pass, Calif., meaning that the U.S. is dependent on other countries for the materials essential for clean energy technologies like batteries, wind turbines, and solar panels. Even after they’re mined, those materials currently have to be shipped to China for processing since the U.S. does not have any processing facilities.Time.com

So we want it…but we’re not willing to dig for it or process it. Sorta like anti-hunters who love their someone-else-killed-it burgers, right?

“If we’re talking about critical metals and materials, we’re so far behind that it’s crazy,” says Corby Anderson, a professor at the Colorado School of Mines. “It’s the dichotomy of the current administration—they have incentives for electric vehicles and all these things, but they need materials like graphite, manganese, nickel, cobalt, lithium, and copper. The only one we mine and refine in this country is copper.”

Sure doesn’t sound like a win-win to me… Oh, and good luck with that car… it’s going to be a race to see whether artificial intelligence beats natural stupidity. I know where I’m betting on THAT.

 

Category: "Your Tax Dollars At Work", Economy

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A Proud Infidel®️™️

To top it all off, just how well will those glorified golf carts work in a Northern US winter? Just a-askin’ for a friend…

5JC

“Like a polar bear in a snow storm”

MIRanger

Well, it depends!
If you leave it sit out in the cold it will lose between 20%-40% of its battery life once you start it getting up to operating temperature. If you leave it plugged in where it can keep itself warm, than depending on the actual outdoor temperature (down to about 0F to -30F) it may have a range that is 10-20% less than other times (above 0) but otherwise it works fine. Very similar to a ICE engine in the cold, where you need an engine heater for the overnight! Except that an EV will be warm and toasty when you are ready to leave in the morning…maybe even have defrosted the windows for you. More testing is required but they actually do better in those stuck in the snow storm situations.

11B-Mailclerk

Since even small EV impacts result in potential damage to batteries, any fender-bender can result in “totaled” by insurance. The batteries eventually wear out, and no manufacturer has long-term support.

Thus, the EVs will accumulate in scrapyards. Neglected and exposed to weather, EV batteries will catch fire and burn spectacularly. As they spew multi-thousand degree flames, they will tend to ruin, and if combustible ignite, any adjacent wrecks.

If you thought tire dump fires were nasty, wait for EV junkyard fires.

Since it costs money to de-battery an EV, versus drain and crush, folks are going to be paying real coin to get yards to take these things, especially once the fires run up insurance rates.

Perhaps some clever soul will figure out easy swap batteries, and easy recycle ones. Doesn’t help folks with current ones.

So good luck with your rolling firetrap. Good luck getting rid of it when you are done with it. Or, when your kid bends it backing into a post. Or some drunk dents it trying to park next to you.

A Proud Infidel®️™️

Not just that, but not long ago I was reading a story about a Man who bought his Daughter an EV to go to college with, but the battery went kaput! The dealership said that a replacement battery would cost around $16K but alas, said battery pack was no longer made and offered him &500 for the car. How often will we see crap like that in the future from the EV boondoggle?

5JC

Ever since we have had cars we have had used car salesmen. But what you are saying is that you have never heard of someone buying a used car with a bad engine and then the engine costing more than the car to fix? Because I have heard those stories my whole life. Just hasn’t happened to me yet.

SFC D

Not a fair comparison. This isn’t a shady dealer selling a used car with a worn out engine. This is each. And. Every. EV.

5JC

No. It. Isn’t.

MIRanger

The whole story was he thought he got a great deal at $5K for a car, but the new battery would cost $16K (yes the battery is the most expensive part of the car) from the dealer…excpet he could buy a rebuilt battery from certain companies for about $8K! It was just news folks sensationalizing the costs!

Odie

Well that’s just asinine buying a 5000 dollar car and putting 8k into it to make it road worthy.

Take no advice from that idiot.

MIRanger

Yeah, the car was valued (Bluebook) at $16K-$20K) so even with the rebuilt battery he had a good deal. Not so much with the battery from the dealer…which was still available just not made anymore.

5JC

Vehicle fires on the road occur with electric cars at 1/10 the rate of ICE vehicles when accounting for the number of cars on the road.

Junkyard fires are a thing with Teslas and have been for years. However; no junk yard will ever turn down a Tesla, they may even pay the insurance company to keep it. That thing is a huge cash cow. Because most production is limited to new vehicles and there are very few factories approved to build MAPs any junked Tesla is literally a gold mine of parts. Even a used battery will sell for thousands.

What they will do, if they can’t strip it right away is put it off in a corner out of the way in case it does catch on fire.

But you do bring up a great point. All the shitty drivers in the US make the US a worse than usual EV market due to the high cost of fixing EV’s involved in crashes. Practically every civilized country in the world has a better driving record than the US. Including most of Europe, Japan, Israel and Canada. It doesn’t help that we have millions of people from Mexico and other countries South of the Border, all of whom are even much worse drivers, driving around the US with no license, insurance or even good reason for being here.

11B-Mailclerk

I can, and have, put out engine fires with a decent ABC extinguisher.

Good luck with that EV.

Ever discuss EV fires with the pros who are tasked with firefighting? Could not pay me to park one adjacent to my home, let alone in the garage. I would rather have 200 gallons of high octane in a garage than an EV.

RCAF-CHAIRBORNE

Yeah, I would imagine you would need Class D gear to put out an EV fire.

AW1Ed

“Vehicle fires on the road occur with electric cars at 1/10 the rate of ICE vehicles when accounting for the number of cars on the road.”

Liars, damned liars and statisticians.

Odie

A former co worker worked for the fire dept and said if responding to an electric vehicle fire that they try to protect surroundings but the electric vehicle they would just let burn itself out.

Too toxic was the smoke and the debris to walk through or drag fire hoses etc through.

5JC

That is so weird. I know a lot of fire fighters and they wear respirators to avoid smoke and toxins and train to deal with the challenging and difficult conditions of fighting fires. Maybe your guys could get with my guys and learn how to do all that?

Odie

Ask your guys how they handle EV fire. Maybe they’re the knowledgeable ones.

MIRanger

Well 11B-Mailclerk stop spending so much time on those Conspiracy channels and unpack your SHTF bag by the door. EV batteries aren’t like the lithium ion batteries in the “hoverboards” from years ago. Here is a good video to explain what will happen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F1EbYS2Skc

There have been lots of Fender benders and not that many EVs totalled. What you will see is a huge repair bill because some of the techiques used to build some of these exotic EVs. There also may not be too many repair shops who are certified to do the repairs.
And yes, it costs money to disassemble and salvage the battery packs from EVs… I would expect a few more enterprising individuals to realize this too and start up businesses to do just that. about 90% of the battery pack can be recycled.
Which if I am not mistaked the Youtuber was mentioning people sneaking in to “salvage” cars from the EV lots… whether they are from bankrupt builders who were cooking the books or failed ride sharing buisinesses. China is notorious for building stuff and instead of selling it off for below market value to get a return on investment, they just let it rot (see Everergreen housing projects, bicycle ride share, scooter ride share, EV ride share(?), whole towns in areas the government planned a city).

11B-Mailclerk

EVs are a scam, else they would not require massive subsidies an yet more coercion.

Pass

Odie

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fm2176

We all have to do our part. Plus, those cords can be trip hazards.

KoB

Guess y’all saw the headline where Ford has chopped $10K off the price of unsold EV F-150s…and they still aren’t selling. Thank you, but NO thank you, I’ll keep my ICE ’05 F-150 that 107K miles, still runs like a top and will tow 11K pounds (if need be). EVs have a place for folks that can use them, however, they CANNOT be a replacement for what has worked well for over 100 years. We running out of oil? *spits* Oil naturally replenishes itself and there is plenty of it. Glo Bull warming? *spits again* Taxes paid cannot solve the drug, crime, homeless, poverty, war, etc, problems how dahell does anyone think the grubermint can control the weather?

From March of ’06 until March of ’18 I made 5-6 400 mile trips a year to Tampa. Average travel time of 6-7 hours (depending on traffic), 16-30 mpg (depending on which prime mover I drove). SiL and his buddy drove up one year to get me in buddy’s Tesla. Had to stop twice to charge the silly thing, total travel time pert near 9 hours (traffic was very light).

Imagine, if you will, striking out on a cross country trip like I had planned to do back in ’20? I think I’ll go out and hug my 3 ICE vehicles.

5JC

People in China aren’t buying ANY cars right now. The Chinese economy is in terrible shape. After decades of huge growth due to unfair dealings and other unethical practices China is finally reaping what they sowed. They have become their own enemy.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/chinas-economic-woes-are-multiplying-and-xi-jinping-has-no-easy-fix/articleshow/101417483.cms?from=mdr

But as for the rest? HAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHA. You guys are hilarious.

A23Q1 showed a 66% increase of sales over the previous year. 23Q2 showed ONLY a 48% increase in sales over previous year. EVs US Market share of passenger vehicle increased 22% from 5.7% to 7.3% of the market.

Honda would wet themselves if they had line wide increase of sales of 48%.

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/04/27/us-electric-vehicle-sales-up-66-in-1st-quarter/

So why are inventories increasing? A few reasons.

Because of the market volatility the manufacturers have been unable to accurately predict demand. Even Tesla, because previously they owned the entire market and now they have to share some of it.

Interest Rates.

Both Ford and GM decided to build a lot of EV trucks and large SUVs. The market for a nearly $200K electric Hummer (which BTW w/ 0-60 of 3.5 seconds, 850 HP and 11,500 ft/lbs of torque is pretty bad ass) is limited to a very small market.

Odie

You seem to be quite a cheerleader for EVs. Do you own a EV company or are you heavily invested in one or more?

I have yet to see a report on an EV test of electric pickups used as a pickup. Tow a camper from mid illinois to say Yellowstone for example. How long did take? Recharge stations along the way. How much did they charge price wise. They aren’t going to do that for free.

A boat? A hay wagon? The large round bales as square bales around me are pretty much a thing of the past.

Point me to articles where there were real world tests.

Thanks in advance.

5JC

I own zero electric vehicles. Although I do have some small investments in EV companies, which BTW have done fantastic. I don’t own an EV because it doesn’t fit into my lifestyle. But I’m not cheer-leading, just amused by all the false narrative put out by some of the oil companies and regurgitated.

I have a work car that I use for commuting that the company provides. I have C8 Corvette that I use for date nights, pleasure riding and trips and I have a pick up truck that I use for hauling boats, trailers and off road travel for hunting or whatever. Oh and some motorcycles for touring and off road use.

If I didn’t have a company provided car I’d probably have an EV for commuting. When the electric Corvette becomes available around here I’m going to take a good hard look at that. It will likely be much faster than my C8. Might not be able to live with that.

Why would you buy an EV if you want to tow a camper back and forth across the country? That makes no fucking sense. Just buy an ICE truck.

Eggs
5JC

It isn’t available yet.

All builds default back to the 6.2L V8. Couldn’t help but notice that the 2024 build went up $24,000 over last year for the exact build that I have. Good gravy, GM likes money. But still, one helluva car. They really built it right. The only thing I would do different is get black rims because of all the brake dust on the Z51 brakes.

They open the 24s for order at the end of July. However the ERay isn’t expected till the end of the year. I imagine, based upon the prices of the base models that the ERay will be well North of $150K closer to 200k than not. I am going to take a guess and say the 0-60 will be sub 2s, 1/4s in the 9s, 1000+HP, top end probably peak out around 210MPH. That would be my expectation anyway.

Odie

Since you have a C8 vette, and all other gear heads here addicted to horsepower and speed, look up lateral g 65 riviera. Many pages to read in the building of this beast. 950 horsepower and looks stock outwardly.

Many pics and comments on the building of. It’s a shame most all fabrication is covered with paint and upholstery.

5JC

Holy cow, he built a whole new car!

Odie

And a bad ass car at that.

fm2176

I like to come in from left field and know little about the production, sales, and surplus of EVs, so I’ll focus on the battery aspect. I’ve been buying, using, abusing, testing, and talking about cordless power tools for going on ten years now, since Li-Ion battery platforms nearly completely pushed out Ni-Cad/Ni-Mh and evolved to their current incarnations. I own most of the major brands’ tools in various voltages and have seen and heard a lot. My opinions and experience may or may not apply to EV batteries, but as I understand, they too use Li-Ion cells, so I can’t imagine that the technology is too much different. EVs have far larger semi-permanent batteries, though.

First, Li-Ion batteries, while having much better self-discharge rates than their predecessors, still degrade with non-use. I’ve had mixed experiences with this: some of my 2010-dated DeWalt 12v Max 1.3Ah batteries are still working well, while other batteries like some of my 2015 and newer 20v Max and one of my EGO 5Ah batteries (2017 date code) have gotten to the point where they have maybe 25% of the runtime they originally had. Hand-in-hand with this is the storage and number of charging cycles. As I previously stated, I abuse my tools and batteries at times…currently, I’m continuously running a Ryobi fan on 3-4 batteries to see how well the batteries hold up over a few weeks of charge/discharge cycles. Some careful tool owners label their batteries and record the number of charges, ensuring that the batteries are at about 50% charge. So, if cars are sitting for months, that’s not good. If they were fully charged when parked, that’s not good either. I don’t think a few months or even a year of sitting will necessarily damage an EV battery, but should anyone risk it given the high prices of both the car and replacement batteries?

fm2176

On to the fire issue. I’ve been on a few forums where a contractor or casual tool user has posted pictures of a power tool battery fire. Sometimes it just happens. I haven’t had it happen to me yet, but I’ve had one DeWalt 20v Max 4Ah battery swell up and start to smoke. I’ve had other batteries heat up without smoke or visible damage, usually if overloading a tool (which modern brushless tools tend to protect against). I’m sure that the engineers designing EV computers and drivetrains have checks and balances in place to avoid this happening (perhaps even a motor load sensor or tongue weight sensor), but I see ICE trucks overloaded quite often. EV trucks like the F-150 Lightning would start pulling in more and more amps to haul or pull a heavy load.

Please note that everything I write comes from the viewpoint of an ill-informed and opinionated guy with too many batteries whose last practical experience with working on electric vehicles (if you count forklifts) was 22 years ago, and whose last classes in electrical and battery, charging, and cranking systems were nearly 25 years ago.

jeff LPH 3 63-66

I thought that reading this post would be a gas, but I was electrified after reading about the cost and getting lithium to make batteries

Eggs

Shocked I tell ya!

President Elect Toxic Deplorable Racist SAH Neande

If I could get one for cheap cheap cheap, and tap off 12V, I’d make an EV into a rolling ham shack. Think of all that battery power…..

HT3

I have no interest in EV’s, and it looks like I am not alone.
I watched several videos/blogs from EV owners, and one stuck out. He said “owning and EV isn’t like any other car. It’s not transportation, its a lifestyle.”

AW1Ed

There’s another place in the woods of Maine, interesting time was had there. Not a lot of chow and the music sucked.
Fella called the Sergeant Major had zero sense of humor.

5JC

Oh and BTW… if you lived in much of Europe right now, the cost of driving your electric car per mile would be from zero, to minus something….?!

European Electricity Prices Turn Negative Amid Glut of Green Energy (businessinsider.com)

On Saturday, prices for the following day dipped below zero in about a dozen countries, including Germany, France, the United Kingdom and the Netherlands, according to Epex Spot SE data cited by Bloomberg.

In the Netherlands, prices for Sunday afternoon were as low as minus 73.76 euros per megawatt hour, or about minus $82.83.

Oh noes! Germany will never be able to make enough electricity with all dem green solar panels and windmills!!! Dats why de lost de wars. Dumasses. I’m gonna go hug my coal power plant. It will always keep me warm, even in the summer.

Odie

California has rolling black outs and Texas couldn’t keep the lights on last winter. Yet California insists on electric vehicles for all. PG and E was blamed for some fire in the past couple years, I forget which one.

I see we can agree to disagree on EV usage. They may be good if you live in town but I prefer to keep a distance between me an my neighbors. Distance too makes good neighbors as well as good fences.

5JC

California has had rolling blackout since at least the 90s. The people that run the electrical system out there are morons. We could fill the entire internet with all the stupid shit they do. They get what they deserve. Pro tip- Don’t live in California.

Texas has been dealing with insane and increasing amounts of demand, well past any projections. Every year during the peak heating and cooling season is a new record high.

For example the last three records highs for electric demand in Texas have all occurred in the last six weeks:

ERCOT said power use reached a preliminary 81,351 megawatts (MW) at 6 p.m. CST (2300 GMT), topping the grid’s previous record of 80,828 MW set on June 27. Peak demand is expected to set another record at 83,454 MW this week

While 80.8MW to 83.5MW might not seem like much we are talking about enough electricity to power about 2 million homes or say; two typical nuclear power plants or a small country.

The winter is no exception for records:

Electricity demand hovered around 74,000 megawatts Friday morning (December 2022). That far surpassed the previous winter record of 69,871 megawatts during the 2021 storm. But that previous record demand didn’t account for how much power Texans might have used if blackouts hadn’t hit much of the state.

However there were no widespread blackouts in the winter of 22-23 so maybe you mean 21-22?

Dave Hardin

Lots of misinformation being posted on this topic, not just here it seems to be everywhere.

I have owned several EV’s since 2018. Regardless of what those who do not own one think, they are the future of the everyday driver/commuter.

Chevrolet Bolts and the soon to come Equinox EV are around $30,000. No oil changes, no air filters, no brake changes, etc.

Free Gas? When was the last time an ICE (internal combustion engine) Car you drove got a free tank of gas? It happens all the time in an EV.

On a recent trip to Key West to dive the Dry Tortugas we fully charged our car three times for free. Shopping malls, restaurants, hotels and car dealerships have free charging everywhere these days. Just go to plugshare.com

You can not find a used battery from an EV for sale because they are in massive demand. As soon as an EV is totaled in a wreck the bidding for the battery damaged or not starts and goes through the roof.

There are issues with driving an EV for sure, there are far more issues with driving an ICE car.

The Former Soviet spends about $3.00 a week driving 25 miles a day to and from work in her EV. I converted a 42′ Catalina sailboat to all electric and got rid of the smelly diesel maintenance nightmare that was there. http://www.catalina42.com is the site. You can login and see my ‘free gas’ being put in the tank every day.

Electric Cars will be the future. The numbers quoted in those sources are complete and utter nonsense. There is a waiting list for every EV being made in the US. I do not speak Chinlish.

Last edited 1 year ago by Dave Hardin
MIRanger

Dave, there doesn’t seem to be much information on your Catalina42 biuld site, just the current state of charge boxes. Are you running solar panels to charge the battery? How many? What size batteries? What size motor are you using? Did it all fit in the space of the previous motor or did you have to put batteries in a few places?

5JC

If you ever decide to sell her drop me a line. I have a Catalina 25 but will upgrade when I retire for good, likely not too far down the road.

Blaster

When traveling (vacation type) and having to stop to charge your batteries, how long does it take? When I’m driving and have to stop for gas, that’s everyone’s chance to get a drink, pee, eat, whatever. Because when I get back on the road, I’m not stopping again till we need gas.

Dave Hardin

Depends, the Bolt is a slow charger at about 55kw at best. From Charleston, SC to Key Largo I stop 3 times in the Bolt for about 30 to 45 min each time.

In the Tesla I stop twice for about 15 to 20 minutes but it charges at 250kw and has a longer range.

For long trips EV’s take longer to get there. Sometimes a couple of hours longer. If I drive 5-6 hours and stop at a hotel I charger for free so you can remove one of those stops.

Instead of taking the Traverse to Key West and back for around $200 round trip, I take a couple of extra hours and do it for about $35. That is enough savings to pay for 3 extra dive trips.

EV’s are the way to go for a daily driver to and from work. Doing long trips costs you time but I would stop at least twice anyway on any 10-12 hour trip.

Last edited 1 year ago by Dave Hardin
Blaster

Thanks!

Never had a problem with EVs and can see the benefits of having at least one. I just don’t like the government and the Eco-nazis, TELLING me to have one.

Graybeard

Those disillusioned dreamers will have to pry me out of my F150 – after I’ve expended all my rounds.

5JC

Why? There are plenty of advantages to an old Ford F150. Tesla never made any serious effort on trucks because the current tech isn’t there.

NHSparky

I love discussing electrification of society with the folks Jonn used to refer to as, “stank-ass hippies”, especially when they find out what I do for a living.

Fact of the matter is, fossil fuels ain’t going away anytime soon. Not my lifetime, not my kids, probably not significantly reduced even in grandkids lifetimes.

Suck on that, Greta.

Anonymous

Screw planet– is all about power, comrade!
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DocV

My fire department’s current EV battery fire SOG is to protect exposures and let it burn. LA Coynty Fire documented using over 40,000 gallons of water to extinguish 1 EV fire.

Too W Kone

Oh No! Dealers may have to lower prices on slow selling cars!

The horror! How will the nation survive lowered prices?

5JC

If you thought the unsold electrical vehicle thing was bad check this out. An entire city of brand new mansions, never lived in, converted back to agricultural use.’

Chinese ghost town of mansions reclaimed by farmers (msn.com)