Do you want to get shot in training? Because this is how you get shot in training.
Screen capture of a video showing a severe lack of muzzle discipline.
The above screen cap is from a video showing soldiers of the US Army’s elite 10th Mountain Division conducting training on room clearing. This training is LIVE FIRE! That’s right, this soldier has his rifle, loaded with live ammunition, pointed right at his teammate. Actually, if you watch the video, it’s not this one teammate. He is prepared to blue falcon the whole lot of his squad.
For any firearms instructors, I advise you not to watch the full video. You’ll be screaming at your monitor and are likely to have your hands in fists so hard you’ll have drawn blood from your own palms. It’s also just one of a few critiques on the training.
Army Times has the story;
The 10th Mountain Division rebuked a viral video showing troops from the unit flagrantly pointing weapons at one another and failing to clear corners during live-fire room clearance training.
Command Sgt. Maj. Mario O. Terenas said his office determined the video depicted soldiers from 10th Mountain Division, which is based out of Fort Drum, New York.
The video was derided online for the frequent “flagging” of teammates, a term for when troops point the barrels of their weapons at one another instead of down at the dirt when another soldier moves past them.
None of the trainers observing the melee appear to be correcting the troops or calling out the dangerous situation.
Terenas said the shoot-house display was “not the 10th Mountain Division’s standard” in a video posted to Twitter Monday night.
“It is our folks, and it really, really hurts to say that,” Terenas said. “It is not the standard. It is not how we do business. It is a not acceptable. So we’re running this thing down to the ground. We will investigate, we will take action and we will retrain. That is a guarantee.”
When exactly the video took place was not stated. Terenas did note that the shoot-house video was filmed “some time ago, so it’s going on a few months.”
Soldiers who appear to be trainers are seen in the video on a catwalk observing the shoot-house below.
It’s not clear from the video whether any trainers provided remedial training after the event, but someone should have called “knock it off” as soon as live ammunition was paired with rifle barrels aimed at teammates.
Aside from the immediate safety concerns, there’s also the fact that, as many viewers pointed out, some of the soldiers aren’t properly clearing the room.
The soldier filming the exercise appears to immediately point his weapon at where he know the targets are located, which wouldn’t be known in real-life.
Original Video;
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Thanks to Jeff LPH 3 for the story tip.
Category: "Teh Stoopid", Army, Dumbass Bullshit, Guest Link, YGBSM!!
Training is only as good as the ability of trainers to pass along useful information and/or develop useful skills. Whatever happened to “Only point a weapon at something you want to kill.” Safe practices should be so routine that you don’t think about them long before doing live fire drills.
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training–Archilochus
And when the hell did the 10th Mtn Div become “elite”?
Rangers are elite, light infantry is just…well…regular forces. Calling everyone “elite” means that no one is elite…smh
Well said!
I had a reputation for booting Soldiers off my range for far less. I can’t believe these “elite” troops weren’t stopped, sent outside and smoked until they were quivering piles of camouflage dumbassery. There is always time for safety. Somewhere at FT Drum, there are some NCO’s in need of a serious job change.
Yes, that was my first reaction to the article posted… Since when is 10th MTN DIV elite. You don’t go through selection to join the unit…you get Orders. And more than a few people try to get out of those, since most of its units are located in Up-State New York, and the other is located in a remote part of Louisiana.
I camera operator/holder definitely needs to be retrained, and that other lead from the first room, but yeah it is really a matter of who does the right thing and not who does not. They would never have made it to live fire when I was practicing CQB (Close Quarters Battle). I’m just really surprised the Squad leader accepted one of his Soldiers pointing a loaded weapon at his chest! He looked back at him more than one time doing it before he went through the door.
When did 10th Mtn become “elite”? Probably when some PAO was writing a blurb for a news release or on their official website they, just like every other Div declare themselves the best/elite/most forward deployed/legendary/most storied in the Army. Most of us who have served just roll our eyes at those claims and sigh/laugh.
They definitely saw their share of rotations to the box.
I almost crapped my pants when I saw that video. That’s what happens when *everybody* want to be a freakin’ Rambo “special ops” “operator”. Once you reach a certain size, “elite” turns to mediocre, and the next step is it turns to shit.
But I am sure they got a freaking medal for completing their “elite” training. Probably get some sort of patch, or cord, or badge, too.
Pure luck that no one has been killed during that “training” (yet).
I bet there’s a lot of remedial training that will happen now – of those trainers, for one. It only takes one dumbass with a camera and an internet connection for a whole lot of scrutiny to be put on what your doing.
Yes, agree with the Internet connection part.
However, I would encourage the unit to add more cameras, and go back and do a play by play with each run to identify thigs right and things wrong…just keep the footage controlled!
It was always an eye opener when we rolled back the footage at NTC (National Training Center, at Fort Irwin, CA where Brigades go to get evaluated during a 10 day field problem in simulated conditions) from all the overhead cameras.
100% true about PURPOSEFUL use of cameras. Especially in today’s age where people don’t seem to get things until they see it.
The guy in this film, however, filmed so he show everyone what a badass he was. “Man, I was light MoFos up like some Ghost Recon shit!”
And just like deer…nobody bothered to look up.
My hunting partner that never served has more
awareness than those guys and is far more safety
minded with firearms.
Sad.
You have a hunting partner that never served?
I couldn’t do that. People that never served will always have a different view on life, and am exaggerated perception of the military.
I only hang with active duty guys or veterans.
Broaden your horizons, Joe. You might even find real beer.
If you always train in the same shoot house, you will train in some very bad habits.
Get some toy guns, nerf, laser tag, etc, and go clear some real buildings. Have some opponents above your skill set. Find some opponents -way- different and outside your team culture. Reward the opfor for ruining your day.
Mix things up. Play against bad odds.
Cakewalks teach you to die.
Imma just bang my head into the wall until I get tired of the squishy sounds.
Anyone who did room clearing in Iraq and elsewhere is screaming at the screen right now.
Anyone who has ever learned the 4 weapon safety rules is screaming at the screen. My 6 year old grand daughter handles her nerf guns more responsibly than that.
One of the purposes of training is to identify skills/knowledge gaps by actually conducting tasks. This doesn’t look like a skill/knowledge gap. It looks like a leadership failure in the the form of incorrect training.
The flagging was absolutely consistent throughout. Leads me to believe this is a unit specific TTP of biblically asinine proportions.
They are so consistent in their actions it has to be deliberate.
Clearly they need more intersectional diversity inclusion training.
“Clearly they need more intersectional diversity inclusion training.”
And there you might have stumbled on the crux of the matter. . .
Better throw in some extry SHARP Training too, p’man, cause that was a clusterphuque if I ever saw one. I’ve seen videos of coat hanger abortions that had a better potential outcome.
Bet somebody (somebodies) had some ‘splaining to do.
While I’m obviously concerned with the flagging, the way they initially enter the room and appear to immediately move to a known target is of much greater concern. All principles and concepts behind CQB seem to have been abandoned for no purpose beyond engaging known targets with a rifle at two meters.
There is a lot of training value in this video. Many teachable moments, and plenty of argument for more training time….
From the video, there’s nothing to suggest the trainers didn’t see and react to the safety errors short of stopping it immediately (but the way they move on those first targets makes me think it was poorly designed course, from the start). They also may not have been able to see the flagging from the catwalk, and simply trusted the team leaders to…. y’know, lead.
10th is definitely not elite (though there are some very select elements within the unit); they don’t share the freedoms that other, more restrictive organizations have. My guess is that this unit had the shoot house scheduled from the beginning of that FY, and nothing short of a blizzard closing the base was going to change that. Their soldiers were going to shoot that day – likewise, their NCOs had set (limited) windows in which to train those soldiers for such. The problem is with those NCOs not saying their soldiers aren’t ready – but maybe they did. Maybe they couldn’t? Maybe it was a matter of risking a sub-par NCOER and another rocker against the chance that a flagging troop loses trigger control (not that letting it continue was the right move)? Maybe concerns were raised but ignored?
If it came down to asking if they should shorten or postpone SHARP training for another day in a glass house, does anyone really see that being requested in the big army?
I’m not forgiving the mistakes, but many of the issues exhibited are much more systemic than being indicative of a single element’s failures.
I was shocked that none of the soldiers involved seemed to be aware of one another’s actions, positions, and weapons. No one said, “Hey, get your fucking muzzle out of my face dumbass!”
Probably some civilian read that the 10th Mountain was a “light” division and being a civilian, had no idea what that meant so they figured it was a typo and wrote “elite” instead.
And I say that as a former member of the elite 1st Armored Division and the elite 2nd Infantry Division (smirk.)
Though the “elite” comment does kind of make me think of the “Ballad of the ASA” (Army Security Agency, which was the Army’s adjunct to the then-secret National Security Agency):
(to the tune of “Ballad of the Green Berets”)
Black is for the night we fear
Blue is water we don’t go near
White is for the flag we fly
Yellow is the reason why
Red is for the blood we shed
And as you see, there is no red
One hundred men will test today
But not a one from the ASA
Fighting soldiers from the sky?
Fearless men who jump and die?
Men who mean just what they say?
Those guys can’t be in the ASA
It goes on from there.
(the first two paragraphs refer to the ASA shoulder patch which you can find here:
aka the “lightning fast chicken f*cker” patch.
I can say without hesitation that ASA had the best chow hall on CP Humphreys 88-90. They really weren’t fond of us lowly signal pukes eating their chow though.
1988? ASA was long gone by then. I think they were deactivated in the late 1970’s and replaced with INSCOM (Intelligence and Security Command.)
You must be referring to the 751st MI Battalion at Field Station Korea, part of 501st MI Brigade. Some of the old timers would still refer to themselves as “ASA” even though officially the designation no longer applied.
Yup that’s it. It was still referred to as ASA, Zoeckler Station.
’77 ASA was folded into INSCOM but various ASA-designated units existed past that. The last ASA unit was a Reserves unit deactivated in ’87.
Glad to see Senior NCO’s getting involved.
About time.
Training can be dangerous and I have been part of a few close quarters and platoon and company-level fire/maneuver live fires in my day that, shall we say, some of us got lucky on.
Glad no one was hurt and that the CSM and the boys on down are hopefully getting on this and addressing the problem. This young man could be (and probably is) a younger, green Soldier or new NCO. (No PL jokes here, guys).
To that end, OSUT back in the day, did not really train you. Your unit did. But with all of the changes in Basic, etc., OSUT standards of shoot-move-communicate and CTT first level training (or lack thereof) with take on new importance.
Makes one think, does it not?
Crawl-walk-run. These asshats were running when they should’ve been crawling through the clearing process with rubber ducks.
The fact that it seems to take an internet leak to get the chain moving on this suggests a complete breakdown in TTPs and leadership. I’m sure that atb60% of training time in the military is now SJW shit has a big impact on this, and the Navy runni6ships into shit. Talking to my few buddies that are still in, it seems only a matter of luck the AF has not crashed more aircraft.
For penguinman000
We were watching Cartoon Network and there was a Nerf commercial on and they used the word for one of their gun parts that holds the Nerf dart ammunition, a “clip.”
I heard Andrew (my 12 year old son) start screaming “a clip? A clip? A CLIP?!?!” I thought he was angry because it only holds six Nerf darts which is not very much.
He turned and yelled “IT’S NOT A CLIP, IT’S A *MAGAZINE* !!!
After it took a second for my brain to register what he was saying I almost cried out of sheer pride.
😭👍😁🥰🥰
I guess all of our training at the range paid off.
WELCOME TO THE GUN SHOW!!
💪🏻 💪🏻 💪🏻 💪🏻 💪🏻 💪🏻
At 12, he’s shot more different weapons (Henry AR-7, Ruger 10/22, Ruger 9mm Carbine, AR-15M 22LR/.223 & 5.56) than I had my entire life and soon, over time, He’ll shoot more than I ever did, M-16A1 (or 2) in my 23 years of annual quals.
He would know better than any of this. I didn’t watch the video because I didn’t want to get pissy.
The photo above was enough.
My daughter just turned 8 so she’s allowed on the range now. She’s been hanging out in the viewing area for like 4 months now since we all took a (for me) refresher/safety gun familiarization class.
I’m very confident that after a couple of times on the live fire line, she’ll be as confident and familiar with weapons as my son is, AND she’s already smart enough to know muzzle awareness and trigger discipline. Why do they call if “muzzle discipline” as well or is that also acceptable? I guess it’s personal preference. Google says both.
Chippy! Proud of them young uns’ me I am!
In your case re the “muzzle discipline”, I believe she calls it a “Ball Gag”! 😛
Chip-Raise ’em right. You should be proud.
I am and I’m re-thinking what I said and what was discussed.
Maybe the meant “Muzzie discipline”?
Most of them need to be disciplined at the end of a gun barrel and some, by what comes *out* of the end of the barrel of a gun.
So there’s that thought.
😉 😀
Brink’s AD’S during my time
1-messenger shoots himself in the foot in the 34 st. Woolworths and goes to the Nurse and cover up the incident, gets caught and fired.
2-Member of our gun club on the way to the 20th st.
range AD shoots himself in his leg.
3-Shotgun Ad inside the truck leaves double O shot
rolling around inside the cab ceiling every time
the truck made a turn. Shooter was a Viet Marine Huey pilot.
4-Shotgun AD inside A&S Brooklyn Dept store leaving
holes in the ceiling in front of the elevator.
5-guard in truck cab shoots himself in the leg by accident.
6-Guard pulls out gun from holster in vault to spin
the gun and shoots one of the vault men. Fired.
7-Shotgun AD in our Brooklyn office outside the gun
room leaves double O holes in the above duct.
8-New hire in our range finishes shooting, turns around and pulls the trigger until a round goes off in the room splattering the cinder block and cutting the arm of another employee. Fired. Employee whom got the cut on the arm went on NYPD (transit) right after 9/11.
I will not be showing this video to Airborne Son.
He’d want to smoke them bad.
How’d they get through dry and blank fire before going live? I’ve got to speculate that this isn’t a line infantry unit but some more pogue unit in the division just trying to do some “high speed” training. Otherwise, this represents failure at many levels. I’ve had some of my scariest moments when seeing support units trying stuff beyond their skills. I once took my Headquarters Company (IN BN) through the support battalion’s LFX. They wanted my crews to stop, pull into a berm, and get out to put chock blocks in the wheels before they could return fire. I told them there was no way I was going to train to reinforce that action in live fire so they let me back off that requirement (but not the other units).
My guess is they did one, maybe two, familiarization run-throughs because only one or two days was allotted for this training. We all know how busy infantry units are in garrison; they just didn’t have the time for more thorough training. Too many unpainted rocks left.