Confederate Flags Banned on Military Installations

| July 18, 2020

What’s it called when someone condemns the Confederate flag because of its racist past, but support the Democratic Party despite its racist past? (The Donald Win)

Defense Secretary Mark Esper signed a memorandum authorizing flags that could be flown on military installations. The American flag, state flags, territorial flakes, flags for each of the services, and the POW/MIA flag. So far so good. However, for those who want to display the “Confederate flag”, it did not make the Defense Secretary’s list.

From Fox News

Confederate flags, monuments and military base names have become a point of controversy for protesters and activists in the weeks since the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis.

In many parts of the country, state officials have taken down Confederate monuments and symbols over the Confederacy’s legacy of slavery. But many activists have since moved on to targeting past figures and symbols of U.S. history in general.

Trump has rejected the idea of changing base names, and has defending the flying of the flag as a freedom of speech issue.

“I know people that like the Confederate flag, and they’re not thinking about slavery,” Trump said in an interview with CBS News. “I look at NASCAR. You go to NASCAR. You had those flags all over the place. They stopped it. I just think it’s freedom of speech, whether it’s Confederate flags or Black Lives Matter or anything else you want to talk about. It’s freedom of speech.”

Esper’s memo says that the display of unauthorized flags — such as the Confederate banner carried during the Civil War — is acceptable in museums, historical exhibits, works of art or other educational programs.

The Marine Corps has already banned the Confederate flag. Gen. David Berger, the commandant of the Marine Corps, directed his commanders in early June to remove public displays of the Confederate battle flag. That flag, which some embrace as a symbol of heritage, “carries the power to inflame feelings of division” and can weaken the unit cohesion that combat requires, Berger said.

The other three military services were all moving to enact similar bans, but they paused when Esper made it known he wanted a consistent policy across the whole department.

Fox News has more of the article here.

Category: Military issues

75 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Just Lurkin

So, I’m curious-if a base worker has an SCV license plate (with the stars and bars) does that mean that that person has to change his or her plates to come on base?

5th/77th FA

That’s going to be an interesting question to have answered JL. And not just Civil Service but also active duty people who are members. There are 30 some odd thousand members of the SCV, yes a very small proportion to the total population. There are roughly 70 some odd million people in this country that are descended from a Confederate Veteran. And yes, a goodly number of those people are Black. LT Gnrl Nathan Bedford Forrest’s Personal Escort Company had 60 some members serving throughout the war at his side that were Black. And no, a goodly portion of the Black Confederates were NOT just teamsters, laborers, or manservants to “Massa.”

It seems as if a number of the highers that are in charge of the 5 sided puzzle palace, AKA Sodom on the Potomac, came of rank during the term of the JEF. The meme above shows a goodly number of images that I find offensive. Can I go burn, loot, steal, and or destroy them?

Once they have done away with all symbols of the Confederacy, they will be coming after other symbols of YOUR past. You do not have to be a member of the SCV to have an SCV Tag. Funds generated from the purchase of these tags are used by the Organization to maintain the Cemeteries and Monuments. Join Today! A Sample picture of the current Georgia SCV Tag.

http://scvcamp1399.org/images/tag2004b.jpg

26Limabeans

Daughters of the American Revolution are next.
The bronze flag holders on graves are already
prized for scrap. To buy drugs, not plowshares.

gitarcarver

According to the memo, you would. Flags or depictions of non-authorized flags are banned.

Here is the relevant section for your question:

This guidance applies to public displays or depictions of flags by Service members and civilian employees in all Department of Defense work places, common access areas, and public areas, including, but not limited to:
• Office buildings, facilities, naval vessels, aircraft, government vehicles, hangars, garages, ready rooms, conference rooms, individual offices, cubicles, storage rooms, tool and quipment rooms, workshops, break rooms, kitchens/galleys, recreational areas, commissaries, Navy and Marine Corps and Army and Air Force exchanges, and heads/latrines/restrooms -including property and buildings off installation leased by the Department;
• Sensitive compartmented information facilities and other secure facilities;
• Open-bay barracks, berthing areas, and common areas of barracks and bachelor quarters;
• School houses and training facilities; and
• All spaces or items in public or plain view, such as the outside areas of any Department of Defense buildings and government-operated or public-private venture housing (e.g., parking lots, yards, gazebos, or porches).

The memo can be found here: https://media.defense.gov/2020/Jul/17/2002458783/-1/-1/1/200717-FLAG-MEMO-DTD-200716-FINAL.PDF

Fyrfighter

That could be an interesting fight, for anyone that wanted to push it. How can they ban a legal, state issued license plate?

11B-Mailclerk

“Because we said so”

26Limabeans

They ban legal, state issued carry permits don’t they?

5th/77th FA

The Change.org petition is the scariest and saddest of all on so many levels. FIRST and Foremost, you had 253 petitioners dictating to a City population of 43K and a metro population of 131K people. That is .006 and .001 some odd %. Think about that for a minute. Only 253 people out of 130 plus some odd THOUSAND. As I have commented so many times lately and what is re-emphasized above, this is just the low hanging fruit. If we continue to allow this dictation by such a very small percentage of the Country, where does it end?

Another sad part is the pure ignorance of the petitioners. The SCV is a non political, non racial, Historical Honor Organization that exists solely to maintain the Gravesites, Monuments, and the Memory of the Confederate Soldier. The quickest way to be run off from an SCV Function is to show up spouting any type of hate speech, passing out KKK/Nazi Type literature, or conduct unbecoming to good order and discipline. Damn, where have we heard that before? This Organization goes about, quietly with very little fanfare, the business of preserving these sites.

Hard to put 60 + years of study on this time period in a milblog comment. If anything, actions like these are driving the membership rolls of the various Camps to increase.

Fyrfighter

You guys are not wrong… Though they would argue you’re not REQUIRED to have a carry permit, but you are required to have license plates to drive the car.. Either way, it’s all bullshit.and KoB is right, it’s freaking sad that such a tiny, whiny minority has such power

Poetrooper

They learned from Mikey Whinestein–squeaky wheel and all that…

gitarcarver

In Walker v. Texas Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans the Supreme Court ruled that license plates – including specialty plates and vanity plates are government speech and not private speech.

The government can control when and were it expresses itself which means the government can ban the plates on bases.

5th/77th FA

gc, a whole bunch of money and political influence was spent to make sure that decision went the way it did. And we’ll just say that the political influence came from the very highest levels.

Fyrfighter

“The government can control when and were it expresses itself which means the government can ban the plates on bases.” I don’t disagree, but it just seems to be bullshit / conflict that one branch of government can ban something approved by another branch (State)
Also, that decision said that the govt (Texas) could regulate what THEY produced (license plates). Nowhere in the decision did it say anything about invalidating / banning legal plates from another state, so really no applicable to this situation

gitarcarver

Nowhere in the decision did it say anything about invalidating / banning legal plates from another state, so really no applicable to this situation

Once again, the Supreme Court ruled that the government can regulate government speech. It does not matter the origin.

It is no different than any other time, place and manner restriction.

Toxic Deplorable Racist SAH B Woodman

One can always sneak under the radar and fly the Bonnie Blue, as well as other Confederate flags that don’t have the Stars and Bars on them.I

There is always a way around everything.

HMCS(FMF) ret

11B-Mailclerk

Only flags on the approved list are permitted. -All- other flags are banned.

So no “Bonnie Blue” or “First National” or “Gadsden” snake flags or “Thin Blue Line” or “Grand Duchy of Fenwick” for that matter. If they only specify “current” US flag, then neither the WW2 48 star flag nor the 13 star “Betsy Ross” would be permitted.

It’s an allow list, not a block list.

26Limabeans

Ha! you couldn’t say “white list”

11B-Mailclerk

Allow list and block list are my preferred IT terminology. They accurately describe the action, and do not annoy my associate with factory tinting.

Why -not- use “block list” ? It is spot-on accurate.

Now, I personally don’t care about “red line”, and Mr Spock can speak, or not, about greenlighting projects.

rgr1480

No Homo flags! If you see a rainbow flag on post, report it!

UpNorth

Hey, Gen. Berger, if the BLM signs, the Republic of New Africa flag and the logo of the Black Panthers “carries the power to inflame feelings of division” and can weaken the unit cohesion that combat requires”, why didn’t you specifically ban them?

Anonymous

Antifa flag? Should ban that too while they’re at it.

OWB

Well.

It actually makes good sense to ban flags on military installations of any entity which advocated/s the overthrow of the US government and those who have gone to war against her. All of them. That would include BLM (did we just observe them burning stuff and other violence???) and a bunch of countries.

OTOH, simply listing the only acceptable flags is a lot easier. No rainbows, Imperial whatsis, PLO, IA, nuttin’.

26Limabeans

“and those who have gone to war against her”

Lot’s of those flags right in front of the UN right
in downtown New York city.

The confederate states have rejoined the Union.
They have a rich history that is also part of the
history of the USA. How many other civil wars have
been resolved with the coming together of both sides
for the common good of the nation after the bloodshed?

If there is any entity that should preserve history
it is the US military.

SEAL TWO

The CSA NEVER advocated the “overthrow of the U.S. Government…” As Jeff Davis said in 1861, “We only ask to be left in peace…” It was the U.S. Government that invaded a sovereign country (the CSA) and forced that country back into a “Union” they no longer wished to be part of. Seccession was (and is) not prohibited by the U.S. Constitution, and that war created a Federal hegemony that our founding fathers never intended the Government to have. Furthermore, if France had not intervened and enabled us to win our American War for Independence, people today would be referring to our founders as “those misled colonies and the errant pack of traitors who led the rebellion against the mother-country.”

11B-Mailclerk

Only “sovereign” if they won. Basic rule of the “rebellion” game.

They lost, thus not.

And they invaded Pennsylvania, unless Bobby Lee was just lost? Hardly a “defensive only” war. There are other examples.

SCOTUS has repeatedly found “were never out of the Union” as to the states claiming secession.

Again, lost.

That war is long over and lost. Retconning the thing changes nothing.

11B-Mailclerk

Check the Articles of Confederation, of which much of the participants were signatory.

“Perpetual Union”. Note the term.

And the 1787 Constitution specifies ” a more perfect Union”, perfecting that of the Articles. Also note the absence of an exit/secession clause in the 1787 Constitution.

Thus the various SCOTUS decisions.

Lost and settled, long ago.

OWB

Read what I wrote again before castigating me for what I did not write, please. What you quoted applies to a lot of countries and groups within/outside this country while the rest of the sentence would apply to many countries and the CSA. Either one might apply to some countries that were once our enemies and are now allies, hence, most likely, the careful wording in the “ban.” That logic could also apply to the CSA as far as I am concerned.

USMC Steve

Not even a correct assumption. Read your history. The southern states wanted to leave the union, not destroy it. That was never their goal. And another hot flash for you: At the time the war started, it was perfectly legal for them to do so. Where they screwed up was firing on a US Federal installation, thus committing an act of war, and the South Carolinians did that all on their own.

11B-Mailclerk

SCOTUS, 100% said “not legal” in every instance where brought before them.

Articles of Confederation specified “Perpetual Union”. 1787 Constitution specified more perfect union. Perfecting the AoC.

The rebellion failed, thus not legal. Only a successful one is legal, example: US Revolutionary War.

Slice it how you like. They lost. It’s over, and no retcon can change it. Union is permanent, ” indivisible”, then and now.

Green Thumb

But one can fly the LBGTQ flag?

A Proud Infidel®™

Burning or even thinking of trying to ban that will be labeled as a “Hate Crime” by leftists everywhere.

gitarcarver

Nope.

Here’s the list of allowable flags:

• Flags of U.S. States and Territories and the District of Columbia;
• Military Service flags;
• Flag or General Officer flags;
• Presidentially-appointed, Senate-confirmed
civilian flags;
• Senior Executive Service (SES) and Military
Department-specific SES flags;

The memo can be found here: https://media.defense.gov/2020/Jul/17/2002458783/-1/-1/1/200717-FLAG-MEMO-DTD-200716-FINAL.PDF
• The POW/MIA flag;
• Flags of other countries, for which the United States is an ally or partner, or for official protocol purposes;
• Flags of organizations in which the United
States is a member ( e.g., NATO); and
• Ceremonial, command, unit, or branch flags or guidons.

Green Thumb

If yo do away with one, then you need to do away with all.

Only fair.

SEAL TWO

Earlier this month the cowardly legislators in Jackson, Mississippi voted to change the state flag. The (also cowardly) governor, who first said he would veto the law, decided to sign it. The governor initially said it would not be changed without a public vote/referendum, but he politicians decided to forgo the public vote, because the last time the flag was voted on by the citizens (almost 20 years ago), we voted overwhelmingly to keep the Confederate battle emblem intact. They knew that another vote would have the same result, so they did it without public referendum. The “new” state flag has not been yet adopted (or even decided upon), and the old one is still the official flag until the new one takes it’s place. I guess DoD will prevent the Mississippi state flag from being exhibited on any bases until the “new” one is officially approved (?)

11B-Mailclerk

The state flags are all on the approved list, as specified elsewhere.

Until it gets replaced, I would anticipate many folks choosing to display it.

Anonymous

And that of ISIS.

fm2176

This message was pushed out in an urgent email just after noon yesterday. I scoured it, seeing it as an attack against the Stars and Bars in particular, but it does clarify what may be displayed without targeting any single flag.

As a career Soldier, though, I can see exceptions being made real quick. Young progressive service members will likely use this policy as an excuse to push the boundaries, and I hate to say it, but I don’t see senior military leadership strictly enforcing a ban of LGBTQ+, BLM, or other PC flags for long. In fact, depending on the results of the election, I could see exceptions being put into print. I personally don’t display anything besides the American flag, but I think this is DOD’s “neutral” answer to ongoing events.

11B-Mailclerk

If they stick to this, it is defensible. “We don’t allow -any- flags but these common/apolitical ones”

That leaves folks arguing that the US flag is inherently oppressive/racist/fnord to folks who stood in front of it, stuck their hand in the air, and mumbled “I, state your name”.

That probably won’t fly, absent a draft. The

But yes, folks will push.

” morale patches ” just became very dicey.

Commissar

Why are you all so damn emotionally invested in flying the flag of losers and traitors?

Is the racism aspect of it that appealing?

And banning the display of some flags has a long history on military bases. For good reason. Even if the implementation can be a bit obtuse at times. I was using a North Korean flag as a floor mat in my room in the barracks and was told displaying that flag was a violation.

The confederate flag was already banned on several bases back in the 90s.

In fact most flags are banned. Since if they are not on the list of authorized flags they are essentially “banned”.

Fyrfighter

Because as always, it’s the details where it gets sticky, as in the license plate example above.

Fyrfighter

You would also have the issue of not being able to fly the state flag of the state in which the base is located, should that state flag have a confederate flag as part of it.

And yes, I understand that it’ an intentional ply to get states to remove it from everything as well.

Commissar

No, it is not a violation to flay the state flag if the confederate flag is part of it.

State flags are authorized. All of them. As are flags of US territories.

If you are going to spend so much effort being outraged about this you should spend some effort knowing what the hell you are talking about.

https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/1679c1e6-780f-41b5-a9f9-dea1a085ace3/note/2d125117-f090-4d89-9807-f14c735c7e4e.#page=1

Fyrfighter

Well, truth be known, I’m not outraged at all, i’m kinda bored in a class on pump calculations, and winding you up is amusing me…

SFC D

One of my favorite pastimes too. It’s not all that challenging though, he just never quite realizes his chain is being yanked.

Fyrfighter

Very true… but i did have to complete the calculations, and look like I was engaged in the class, so it was just the right level of distraction…

Poetrooper

Why are you so emotionally invested in turning this country into the Soviet Union?

Is the totalitarianism of the proletariat that appealing?

I’ll just bet you had a North Korean flag in your room. Did it go well with the other decor, your montage portraits of Stalin, Mao, Fidel and Che?

Commissar

Name one example of me wanting to turn this country into the Soviet Union?

More retrograde anachronism from your 1950s bunker.

5th/77th FA

The spapos seagull. Heeeeeeee’s Baaaaack! Damn it!

Poetrooper

It’s your alignment with Marxist political thinking and sympathy for movements that would love to see a far-left government established in this country, Comrade Commissar.

Here’s a bit more retrograde anachronistic wisdom from my 1950s bunker, since you’re neither old enough nor wise enough to realize it:

History does repeat itself and, all too often, in very unpleasant ways for too many helpless unfortunates.

Poetrooper

I do believe these are some of your comrades, Comrade–and I do believe that dude is prominently sporting the symbol from the flag of the USSR.

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/rick-moran/2020/07/18/left-wingers-are-hysterical-about-federal-agents-policing-protests-n660483

Um?

Ret_25X

Poor, poor Kummisar.

Unable to fathom that his adherence to lies and propaganda of the Marxists is the same as support for Soviet and Maoist doctrines.

They are one and the same.

But, of course, he is unable to think. He knows that a good Kumrade does not think, but blindly accept the edicts of his political masters.

The fact that he thinks he will be one of the masters is what is so laughable.

11B-Mailclerk

The adherents to the insane and evil horsehockey of Marx ruin every place they touch.

HMCS(FMF) ret

I was using a North Korean flag as a floor mat in my room in the barracks and was told displaying that flag was a violation.

Pictures or it didn’t happen…

Mason

I can’t believe he admits to having a Nork flag in his barracks room. And admitting it to this crowd. LOL

11B-Mailclerk

You keep bringing up the fiction of “race” , in a manner that implies that you see yourself “helping” one or more “races” that “need” your help. You are wrong, on so many levels.

There is this thing in the Constitution called the First Amendment. The concept of “free speech” is a thing. Freedom to express controversial or outright dumb opinions is part of it.

Folks get to fly -their- freek flag, and my opinions and expressions are probably safe. They will be evaluated based on content, debated etc. If a bunch of crypto-fascists fly the hammer and sickle or a red white and black flag with a circled logo, both signs of losers who want to overthrow our constitution and government, well why allow -those- hate-fest flags and not some other flag?

You seem to fall on the side of “it’s OK to squash opinions or expressions that are ‘wrongthink'”. That doesn’t seem to fit “support and defend”.

HMCS(FMF) ret

Lars sees racism in everything in life… that’s how bigots roll in this day and age.

11B-Mailclerk

Own it!

Woke=Racist

USAFRetired

The way I read this it seems pretty cagey. Rather than ban a number of flags and then have to go through the adminsitrivia to ban the hurt feelings flag du jour that shows up. You state here are the only ones permitted and all others pound sand.

Similar how your free speech ends when you cross my threshold/property line. Your free speech is limited onboard a DOD installation.

Hell I remember when the Flower power decals were banned on board MCRD and MCAS Beaufort in the late 60s. When someone complained about free speech, The installation commanders said they had no problem with folks putting them on their vehicles, but they would have to surrender their Base entry decals.

Slow Joe

It is funny to see so many good people with conservative values defending the Democrat South.

The Civil War was a war between Republicans and Democrats, and the Democrats lost.

I can’t understand why you guys act so protective of the South. It was the original Democrat Plantation. There is absolutely nothing there that can promote conservative values. The old South did not have a free market economy, it did not have a small gruberment, even for the times, and it did not protect anybody’s constitutional rights.

On the contrary, it dragged down the majority of white people in the South, who did not own slaves, into a stupid war in which they had nothing to win, except losing their lives to protect the slave-owning Democrat elite.

Fyrfighter

I think you’re falling into the same fallacy trap that commissar does Joe, noone that I’ve seen is defending the South.
I’ve seen examples of disputing the cancel culture that drives this kind of thing, as well as some who wish to honor the service of their ancestors, regardless of the cause they fought for.
Just because people don’t think statues / flags or other symbols should be torn down / destroyed/ banned doesn’t mean that they support what those things stood / stand for, just that we very strongly believe in that whole “Free Speech” thing…
At least that’s my take, i don’t mean to speak for anyone else..

5th/77th FA

Spot on Fyrfighter very good point! And a point I have tried to make on many a time. And Slow Joe you are semi correct too. A very condensed simplified synopsis, but in a sense a better version than is what taught in the state mandated “history” classes. I could write volumes and lecture for days on this subject, but I won’t here. A few quickies tho. There were more than just the two parties in 1860, and Lincoln came very close to not only not getting the Repub nomination, but could have lost the election. It was very close. The Whig, Know Nothing and Free State Party were not officially that large, but many people supported the ideals that were prevalent then. Limited government, more control being on the state level than the National. And most people’s loyalties lay with their State v the Feds. The New England States almost left in 1812 and again in 1820. There was no federal income tax till after the war started, most federal revenues came from tariffs on imports. And most of that tariff was paid by the Southern States. When Lincoln asked his Sec Tres if he could afford a war, the Sec Tres told him that 80% of his revenue had seceded. And keep in mind, also, that most of the states that seceded didn’t leave until Lincoln called for each state to provide troops to “put down the Rebellion.” There was no rebellion at that point in time, the seceding states just desired to be “left alone.” The entire US Military wasn’t but about 16K men at that point in time. Why do Southerners pay Honor to their Soldiers? Start with 4 out of 5 that served. Consider that at least 1 in 5 was KIA, 2 of 5 died of wounds or disease, and others were just never heard from again. An entire generation was wiped out for all practical purposes. We won’t even discuss the atrocities that were committed on defenseless women and children…and not just by Sherman’s people. Read up on Sheridan, Hunter, Butler, Stoneman et… Read more »

11B-Mailclerk

“Rebellion” is correct.

All of them rebelled against the lawful us government.

Tell that Good ol Boy from NC with kin goin way back he ain’t a Rebel. Go on. Double Dog dare you.

C’mon man. If you are going to brag about being in a historical group, don’t leave out the relevant bits or retcon it.

11B-Mailclerk

My “rebel flag” has thirteen red and white stripes and thirteen stars in a circle.

Original Rebel

HMCS(FMF) ret
rgr1480

Everyone should buy and display the Georgia state flag. After the Confederate battle flag was removed from the fly, Georgia reverted to the Confederate First National Flag (“Stars & Bars”) differenced by the addition of the state seal within the circle of stars.

You could fly that flag on post and never be forced to remove it!

Signed,
“Born at Fort Benning”

David

Please explain again why “the most racist administration in history” keeps doing the anti-racist things?

11B-Mailclerk

Because they project like a multiplex theater.

Skippy

I’m so ready for a 3rd Party already

Green Thumb

Word.

11B-Mailclerk

Why would it be any different from the others?

Seriously.

We have a -bunch- of alternate parties. Any of the best of them not just as much corrupt scams as the two “major” parties?

The last “new” party to succeed was from 1850.

We may see a new party emerge from the current mess, but I am highly skeptical the current “uniparty” can be dislodged without something approaching civil war. The laws in the various states are -heavily- rigged to maintain the status quo. It would take a Convention of States to amend the Federal Constitution to end such legislative shackles and restore the intended Liberty.

Both options are high risk. The latter seems preferable.

Penguinman000

My hope is when all the current silliness shakes out that’s what we get.

The rise of the minority conservative, the centrist democrat/republicans who are sick of their own party’s shit and the battle hardened men and women who have been fighting our nations longest war=a populace that is fed up.

The one thing history shows us about ‘Murica is we are slow off the starting block but we always do what’s best for the country in the end.

Maybe I’m an optimist. In which case, I have a sizeable investment in precious metals (lead).

26Limabeans

“a populace that is fed up”

Call it the “Fed Up” party.
Short for “Federalist”.

USMC Steve

Centrist democrats? Could you show me a photo of that, so I know what they look like? I doubt any actually exist any more.