From The Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Files
the era of Über political correctness has struck the a brigade in Army’s 4th Infantry division. Before I get to commenting too much about the major douchegasm that a full bird Colonel just had, I’ll let you read what he wrote.
Done reading? Are the NCOs in the audience turning red? that’s right sports fans, you are no longer to “smoke” your privates, as this might be considered “hazing” and is counter productive. Correcting deficiencies will now fall to sending the hapless privates to a class and inspecting the deficiencies until they’re corrected. There will be no unique or embarrassing corrective measures. The memo makes it pretty clear that all the measures that were effective and novel in making sure shit bag privates square themselves away most ricky-tick will now be a thing of the past.
Pah-THETIC! Look any private that isn’t terrified of his NCO’s wrath obviously has some bad NCOs. Everything from cleaning their room, to having their weapon cleaned properly and in a timely fashion are vital to military life, and though the Army can sometimes focus on the bullshit routines of garrison there is nonetheless a solid reason for each of those routines. Having a private yell out “I LIKE TO F**K MY BUDDIES!” as loud as he can while running in a circle holding his rifle over his head might seem cruel at first glance, but ask that private if he’ll ever flag a friendly with a loaded weapon again.
I have learned a lot of vital lessons because an NCO took me out to the grass and smoke the crap out of me. Because I knew that my NCOs would come down on me like a ton of bricks my uniforms for Motorpool Monday formations were always pressed and my boots were so well shined I could have used them to shave with. Because of an NCO making me do elevated push ups while I listed the parts of a 9-line, I remembered them. Because of an NCO dummy cording a giant brick to a guy and making him carry it everywhere, I never forgot my weapon. These lessons have a way of staying with you too. Even now long after I’ve gotten out of the Army I’m always early to any meeting I might be having.
Expecting the NCOs to churn out quality soldiers that can go anywhere do anything, while simultaneously tying their hands up makes about as much sense as a poopy flavored lollypop. Unfortunately the society that America is becoming sees adversity and hardship as having no value. Everyone is a special little rainbow. All we seem to be producing are obnoxious self obsessed fat assholes. How we expect our Army to continue to rock and roll kicking asses and taking names when we can’t even drop someone is beyond me, but no doubt that is exactly what we’ll be expecting of them
Category: Reality Check, Shitbags
Err, I mean #36.
Like Alberich, this gets a huge “Meh” from me. This is pretty much the way it was when I was in and I retired in 2005. In fact, the last active duty I did when I was not a deployed reservist was in 1995 at Fort Bragg and that was pretty much the rule. I guess it was because most of my military time was as a headquarters puke but I don’t recall ever seeing any kind of the hazing/harassment that folks here talk about (can’t help but wonder if folks are embellishing a bit.) Now, Basic Training/Boot Camp is a whole different kettle of fish, but this letter applies to a permanent party unit at Fort Hood, doesn’t it? So all the comments about how this will somehow destroy our military seem a little exaggerated. I mean, what are you going to do, make the PAC clerk do “dead cockroach” out on the parade ground because he improperly filed an SGLI form? The one time I had to do “corrective training” on a soldier it worked out great. I was a section NCOIC in an MI Brigade at Fort Lewis. I had a female SPC in my section who liked to cut a lot of corners. When we announced (several days ahead of time) that there would be a uniform and room inspection on Friday, both she and her room looked like crap. I counseled her and then said there would be a reinspection. I knew she had a boyfriend in Seattle (about 6o miles away, which can be 2 hours+ of driving in the heavy traffic they get there) and that she left every Friday to go spend the weekend with him. So the reinspection was set for 2100 on Saturday night. Basically she had to spend all day Saturday GI’ing her room and squaring away her uniform. Of course, since I was doing the inspecting, I also had to be there and also in uniform, but she passed with flying colors, shooting me with daggers in her eyes the whole time. But my point was made and… Read more »
…then there was the time (1987), after field day on Thursday night, my room mate failed to take the trash out on Friday morning before our room was inspected. While we were at work, our room was inspected. After seeing the contents in the shit-can, they started digging – though the rest of the room was spotless and racks were nice and tight.
When we got back to our room it was utterly destroyed – as if the cops had come through and executed a search warrant, or as if we had been burlarized. Racks were pulled apart – mattresses thrown around, and the contents of our cradenzas, drawers, and cleaning gear under the sink was everywhere.
After “failing” room inspection and having our Saturday secured for liberty, we never forgot to take the trash out again.
It’s the little things that matter, too.
This is neither a recent policy, unique to Fort Carson or the 4th ID, nor really that big of a deal.
This policy letter, probably one of a dozen or so, sets up in writing the ground rules and commander’s expectations for his troops. They policy letters are usually posted around the SDO desk and sent to subordinate commanders. Most people will never read it. If you do read it, you’ll see the policy does allow corrective training, which can be physical in nature. It does not allow hazing, which is the right thing to do.
I’m sure that there are many old soldiers who look back and remember ‘the time I had to do X because my sergeant caught me doing Y.’ That is corrective training. This policy doesn’t address that. It does address things like ‘the time my sergeant made all the new guys dogpile in the platoon bay,’ or ‘the time my sergeant dropped my ID into a glass of booze and made me drink it back.’
The point is, NCOs can be hard without being cruel or hazing. It’s a fine line.
“can’t help but wonder if folks are embellishing a bit”
In the Infantry during the 90’s smoke sessions were not unusual.
Which is better? To have your pride intact or your hide intact?
“Not unusual” is not the same as ” not unlawful.”
Almost exactly the same as the “Hazing” policy letter at Ranger Training Brigade. This isn’t really news at all.
Wow. I hate to say this, but, this sounds like air force policy. I love my service, but shit, in army support units we enforce discipline more like the army does. I’ve been put on my face a few times for screwing up. It drove the lessons home, and I haven’t made those mistakes since.
@52: Yeah, there was always that aspect, but there was also the smoke session and this policy deals with that. Smoke sessions worked to correct behavior quickly and efficiently. Yes, there are others ways that can work, as you point out, but I don’t think that certain areas of physical endurance testing should be removed from the quiver of corrective action arrows, either.
Alberich, I wasn’t saying it was.
You know, as long as there have been soldiers, there have been soldiers saying “I hear it’s a lot easier now than it was back in my day.” and “what’s become of my Army/Navy/Marine Corps/Air Force? They’ve gone soft!”
It’s really just the military version of “ah, these crazy kids with their loud music and their funny clothes, why, back in my day…..get off my lawn!” 😉
Addendum to the above: I learned early on that the first person you meet after you complete a military school is the one that arches his eybrows and says “Yeah, I hear that school is a lot easier now than it was when I went through it.”
Based on that, I’m presuming that current basic trainees are brought breakfast in bed by their drill sergants, that they wake up at the crack of 9 every day, that all weapons qual is done using an X-box, and that the day ends with a big co-ed shower scene like the one in “Starship Troopers”, right? 😀
I remember seeing similar (if not the same) policy letters when I was in in the late 90s. Certainly did not stop my NCOs from applying corrective training where necessary.
I vividly remember one of my soldiers did not clean their NBC suit after a field problem. Said soldier arrived at every motorpool formation on Friday 15 minutes early in MOPP1 to demonstrate the cleanliness of his suit. There may or may not have been bear crawls involved beforehand. PSG and Squad Leader made sure it didn’t become abusive and that the intent of the correction was understood. As the PL, I stayed out of the way once I was sure that it was under control and no physical harm would come to the dumba$$.
I would take getting smoked/Thrashed/IT’d over a page 11 anyway.
We had a MasterGunns at one unit that had two pair of 16oz boxing gloves that he used for conflict resolution. If two Marines had a problem with one another they put on the gloves and duked it out. The haymakers usually lasted for all of 30 seconds before the parties in question resolved their problem.
What seems to be happening throughout the services is that leadership is losing the time tested “tools” of leadership that help those in our charge to survive in a combat environment. Instead of engaging the problem child in some time-consuming menial or demanding task, thus allowing leadership to attend to those that aren’t fuck-ups, they are now being forced to “document” the problem and carry on as if nothing happened. It’s the 90/10 rule in full effect. We are creating an environment where our leaders always ask for permission… because asking for forgiveness is unprofessional.
I’m not condoning hazing or whatever we are calling it, but leadership is about getting the most out of each and every Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine in your charge. It’s not a one size fits all approach, different people are motivated to perform by different things. A shitbag that knows he is on his way out could care less about a page 11. Now if cut into his liberty or make his life just a little harder, you might be able to get some use out of him. In the end it’s those that are doing the right thing that get hosed.
Gunz out……
@63 I don’t know about breakfast in bed nowadays (hehehe) but there sure weren’t any females around basic in the 70s….well that’s not true, if you had binoculars you could see the fat ones…
The worst I think I ever did was make a PV2 walk backwards for an entire drill weekend. She was parking HMMWVs and her ground guide ran to get some coffee. I didn’t see the ground guide and was waiting near the rear of a HMMWV to jump up and dow ntheir shit when she comes tearing around in reverse to park the rig she was driving. I quite literally had to jump out of the way.
I calmly walked up and inquired where her ground guide was. That was just as he walked up and offered me a cup of coffee from Starbucks. Cream and sugar, but coffee was coffee.
So, I told her that she would walk backwards for the entire rest of the weekend while she was at the armory and her ground guide would be with her at all times (except for the latrine).
She actually had the chutzpa to run to the EEO NCO to complain about what I did. I was called in and asked my side. Then, the EEO informed her that she would file the paperwork for the Article 15 on her if she wanted, because what she did was against the rule.
After that weekend, I can promise that she made sure her ground guide was there whenever she backed a vehicle up or even moved it within the compound.
O-6 ass covered from media types and attorneys. Mission complete!
Pussy.
I’m certain the Corps was tougher before I went in than when I was in. Not lip service, I genuinely believe that. I couldn’t tell you if it’s easier now. I hope not. I’m guessing it isn’t. As I have only ever been a peacetime Marine, I don’t know.
I did get dropped once when I got to the Fleet. I was late for work. Once. Sergeant told me to start push-ups, and as the phrase of the times was “Lead by example”, often NCO giving the corrective action took part in it. So I was required to keep his pace.
It really wasn’t much of a contest. I was 3 months out of boot and in amazing condition. After 25 or so of those, he said something like, “Get up Smartass” and that was the end of it. Nevertheless, I learned the lesson and wasn’t late again.
Not for a single second did I think I was being abused, hazed or harassed. I fouled up and had it coming. In boot camp when we screwed up, I never felt harassed, abused or hazed. It was part of the job and the learning experience.
Who knows? Maybe if we’d gone to war that extra bit of stamina or mental fortitude would be what it takes to keep me alive.
Rather be embarrassed than dead.
I’m a little late to the party, but this policy letter is pretty standard across the Army. I’ve been getting friendly reminders about “corrective training” vs punishments since the war started. The Army only wants punishments to be in the form of written counselings and commander-driven UCMJ, otherwise it looks like abuse and with social media, softer cultural standards, and tech-savy soldiers, all it takes is a camera photo to ruin that NCO.
My favorite part is that a subordinate can somehow “haze” a superior. How the hell does that happen?
#71 Gary,
Ever seen an NCO torment a LT?
It can be epic.
This is normal after a war. Seriously. There are groups of folks in the military, and one group is the Guardians who seek to guard the traditions of the past – sacrificing anything they consider extraneous in order to maintain larger principles.
Others are just crapweasels.
Twist …exactly ….in the infantrh…in the mid90s….smoke sessions were pretty much the normal thing….
Infantry
Damn phone
Smoke sessions were common in the Engineers in the 90s as well. When I was in Korea, every day began with 0600 Formation for accountability, 0600, Left face, Present Arms (Reveille), Right Face, and the day began. At first when a “Joe” was late or missed that, first offense was a Counseling Statement, second, an Article 15, and they had attitudes afterward, the problem was exacerbated. We had an “OLD Old School” E6 come to our platoon, he spent his time “On the Trail” (Drill Sergeant) followed by as a stint as an Instructor at a DS School and an NCOIC of a CCF (Correctional Confinement Facility). He would just ask for an evening with the tardy troop, and afterward, that troop had the attitude “Be late? Miss a Formation? ARE YOU CRAZY?!”. Problem solved, no paper trail to haunt that Troop’s career over one stupid mistake. I’m the same way with my “Joes” except when one plays “Barracks Lawyer” when I initiate the Corrective training, and then it’s time to start the paper trail and “Take out the trash”!
I remember one 1sg i had….awesome guy…not all there mentally lol…His favorite punishment was school of soldier for whomever decided to be late to his formation. Took only 1 saturday of that and those who were late got the hint and would make sure to be at every formation
Hell, it’s been like this in the USAF for years….
ah yes, the lovely days in the army.
Yes the military has a fucking hazing/abuse problem.
Yes, it is usually plastered over by calling it ‘corrective training’.
The joys of having two to five random uniform inspections a week.
The joys of being required to do a pushup per second late arriving at the workshop, as the rest of the squad ambles in 15 minutes late. the kicker? due to the way the facility was laid out, it was physically impossible to arrive exactly at 0800.
The joys of being required to tell jokes to the rest of the squad about how ugly your wife is, and how stupid you are. penalty? 10 pushups per person who didn’t laugh, per joke.
The joys of having your squadleader take -your- tools to replace someone else’s shortages, and then telling -you- to buy new ones.
having the same squadleader pick over your TA-50 to fill out someone elses.
having other privates set up a goddam zip-gun in the shop, with you being downrange. amazingly, you don’t get fucking killed when it blows up and sends the barrel downrange hard enough to blow a hole in a cinderblock wall.
Those are just the highlights.
y’all can take your fond memories of ‘smoke sessions’ and ‘corrective’ training, fold em till they’re sharp corners, and jam them up your asses.
@79
Sounds like you got in a bad unit, and that sucks. But it doesn’t mean it was like that all over. The idea of taking such a powerful and effective tool away from the people who need it the most simply because some people misused it doesn’t seem right.
Someone has some butt hurt.
Hazing is actually a good thing when applied correctly. After all Adversity is what makes Warriors out of Whelps.
‘someone has some butthurt’?
ok, Doc. explain to me, how any of what I listed, had any positive results? I’m feeling generous, pick -one-. you only have to justify one.
and don’t forget, use small words, cause I’m stupid, and easily butthurt.
Nik- the problem is that the process for correcting the abuse is broken.
If your supervisor feels like using your as his personal chew-toy, you’re pretty much fucked.
And, given we can’t keep NCO’s from -fucking- thier troops, literally, you really want to try to tell me that ‘smoking’ isn’t being systemically abused as well? You seem like a nice guy, but I’m sorry, I just dont believe it. And yes, I was in a very bad unit.
That’s a great example of toxic leadership and you should have documented and reported those instances once it became apparent that “leader” was a fucking douchecanoe. You could have reported your tools as stolen to the MPs, filed a SHARP complaint for the wife thing, something, to spotlight his ass both inside and out of the unit.
@83
Actually I’m sure it’s being abused. Statistics and human nature all but guarantee it.
See, to me it’s like guns. There’s a lot of law-abiding, respectful and respectable citizens out there with a lot of guns. It’s the rare occasions like Columbine and Aurora and Sandy Hook that will encourage gun-haters to try to take away everyone’s guns because of the horrific actions of a few.
@79: And you didn’t take your complaints up the chain of command why? Or, was everyone up the chain in on it and they were out to get you, personally?
Some backstory might be in order. this all happend between 1989-1992 When I first got into basic, I did fairly well. In AIT I did so well I actually got a promotion. So I arrived at my new duty station at a motorpool as a freshly minted, 18 year old E2, nervous, shy, and very geeky. I was, and am, very good at my job(mechanic), but people confuse the shit out of me. In my section and squad, there was an E3, named ‘M’. For whatever reason, it was hate on sight. He hated me with a blinding purple passion. I was just confused, and retreated into my work. He was very socially adept ( I am not, and never was) and knew how to work the buddy system. I couldn’t tell you why, but he made me his personal hobby. Eventually, he was promoted to E5, and put in charge of the squad, and our department. The the -real- fun began. Daily counselling statements, abuse, mockery, and torment. Any time he was questioned, he would claim ‘corrective training’. Funny thing, people tend to make mistakes when you work on rattling their cage all day. Which simply gave him more fuel. He made it clear to the rest of the squad. Torment of myself would result in rewards. Not tormenting me would result in punishment. I squealed like a stuck pig, at first. howled to anyone who would listen. The rest of the squad, having benefitted from this situation, were not going to say a goddamn thing. It was not in their best interests at all to tell anyone what was going on. “yes, major, I took half the contents of this guy’s toolbox and pawned it for beer, with Sgt. M’s blessing even though I’m in the alcohol treatment program” I can -so- see that happening. Not. the company level solution with my first commander was to simply move me to another section, with no actual resolution.She didn’t do anything about the problem, just seperated us. This didn’t fix a damn thing, as we all remained in the same… Read more »