Four female Marines to graduate from infantry training
Stars & Stripes reports that four female Marines are set to graduate this week from the service’s infantry school for enlisted Marines. The course began with 15 females and were whittled down to four after their 20-kilometer road march. Seven began the march and three didn’t finish. 26 men out of the 246 didn’t finish either.
Throughout the infantry training, the women were held to the same standards as men, including performing full pull-ups instead of a flexed-arm hang during the physical fitness test, the Marine Corps Times said.
The four women are assigned to Delta Company, Infantry Training Battalion, a part of the Marine Corps School of Infantry-East.
To be fair, I don’t think anyone on this blog ever said that there were no women who could meet the male standard, our concern was that the number of graduates wouldn’t be significant enough to please the military’s political masters who would eventually push military leadership, such as it is, to adjust the the standard lower in order to accommodate the social scientists. Now that it’s been proven that there are indeed women who can meet or exceed the male standard, they should leave well-enough alone since the Pentagon is so set to integrate the sexes in the infantry.
There’s no evidence to support lowering the standard. Unless it’s for purely political reasons.
Category: Marine Corps, Military issues
Congrats, ladies. Now go kick some ass. Let’s not cheapen what they’ve done by making it easy. No way could I have ever made it through that training, and I say we keep it that way.
Congrats to the 4 who accomplished that. It does not change my mind on the idea of allowing females into Combat Arms at all though. Without changing the standards you will never get enough females to volunteer for it or to be able to compete fairly for the same positions as their male counterparts.
The claim that this is all about career advancement is just bull shit too, because there are many male enlisted and officers who are not in combat arms because they cannot hack it there and are in the very same non combat arms MOS’s as females… I guess it is only the females in those MOS’s who suffer, the males just glide on through.
No, no one said that there were not women who could meet the existing, rigorous standard and, as far as I know, these women cannot be assigned to a combat unit. If that’s true, I’m guessing that will be the next step.
I’m really proud of the women who have accomplished this feat. Good for them!
I will say this – as someone with a daughter at Parris Island right now – if she wanted to do it, and was able to graduate infantry training by male standards, I would support her 100 percent. She went into boot camp already able to do 5 regulation pull-ups. She’s kicking ass on the O-course, from what she tells me, and she’s loving it! That’s one strong kid.
I have no problem with women in combat arms, but they can’t be a burden on the others. They need to be able to shoulder their own burden and help others, if need be.
If they can do it… GO FOR IT!
I agree 100%, Jonn.
If they lowered the standard now, it would cheapen what these four have done.
Good on these 4 Marines. They are now more than I ever achieved in terms of training. I now charge them to lead the fight to keep the standards by which they were measured. Anything less than their is UNSAT.
I hope they are hot and they do a USMC Infantry Bathing Suit Calendar. Such as enterprize will have hard core hot women looking to be the best.
After all … This is what we want.
I am happy to congratulate these four women on what they have accomplished. I hope no one will give them a hard time, or if it does happen, they hand it back with cold stares and wicked smiles.
They have proved that the standards should not be lowered for anyone.
Good for them.
A huge OOORAH from me to these fine women who met the Standard.
They are the first Marine females to be truly equal to the men.
THESE women are the true pioneers and glass ceiling breakers for taking up the challenge and succeeding.
Well done, Marines.
@9. Oh brother. Laying it on a bit thick, aren’t you?
Congradulations to them, not an easy feat. It was only the first step in the process and it did prove that some women can make it. In My opinion a 75% attrition rate puts the damper on any huge influx of females in the infantry. Not to mention this “grunt” experience only gets worse as Marines go to the fleet.
Sent the article to my Marine pals! I guess they aren’t as elite as they claim to be!
We are celebrating the fact that only 4 of them passed the minimum standards?
@14 More on the order that standards did not have to be lowered for some to pass, if we are discussing real equality that’s at least a nice starting point no lowering of standards.
Addressing minimal rates of qualification is something that there is not enough current data to assess, clearly moving forward if only about 25% can make the grade (4 of 15 is a very small statistical sampling) other appropriate discussions should ensue. I suspect that’s where the rubber will indeed meet the road.
Great, they graduated. They did not earn an O3 (Marine Infantry) designator and will not serve in an infantry battalion. But they graduated. So great.
Now, can they live the grunt life? If I recall, not too long ago, a female Marine Captain wrote an article for the Marine Gazette detailing how her body broke down while serving as a combat engineer platoon commander in Afghanistan. She had passed the combat engineer school and was qualified to perform the duties of a combat engineer, which means direct support of infantry. She became infertile after her ordeal. So I guess that is what we want. Our women in front line combat jobs that they are not physically able to perform over time.
I guess we are going to ignore the enemy too in all of this. They have a vote as well, and I am sure they are going to vote yes, please put them in the infantry, because their propaganda machine is going into overdrive as they think of new and exciting ways to exploit the ones they capture.
I truly hope we are able to recover from the harm this thoughtless, PC driven administration has administered our national defense. I do not know if we can survive two more years of this social engineering and rat fucking of our military and its culture.
I say that we all wish these four Marines all the best.
And to the rest of you guys, May each of you enjoy and have a “Happy Thanksgiving”.
Sam Naomi (Where the tall corn grows)
@13, pretty classless thing to say. This has implications for all of the services and you want to turn it into a whose got a bigger dick contest. I guarantee we are elite enough though, cause most of our enemies are pretty much dead on contact.
20 years ago the Air Force ended its prohibition against female fighter and bomber pilots. Today, 98% of the fighter and bomber fighter pilots in the Air Force are male. 99% of the USMC’s fixed wing pilots are male. The Navy has slightly better numbers, with about 96% of F-18 pilots being male. As I said, that’s after 20 or so years. Whether it is reasonable to think that the female infantry numbers will be similar two decades from now, I don’t know. But, as they say, the toothpaste is out of the tube.
Good job on those Marines. Frankly, this goes to show that the standards don’t need to be lowered.
Nik, while that may be true for the enlisted side, females are still having no joy in passing the Marine Corps Infantry Officer Course. I fear that the standards are going to go out the window if that continues to be the case.
@ 18 … ROG That on all. As Jonn wrote in article. For the most part we have been cheering on these young women (in our own unique way). They now have to get out there and fight for the standards by which they were measured.
No one here really believes the USMC are anything less than what you describe “most of our enemies are pretty much dead on contact.” I particularly like that description and that is what I want the USMC to do regardless what is or is not swinging between the legs!
@ 14 …. What do you mean by that?
Have you seen their training records? And by the way, they passed rigorous standards set for and meant for males.
These 4 young Marines need to be congratulated … PERIOD!
No doubt all eyes were on this class and if they did NOT measure up they would NOT have passed.
So a bit of “Shut the Fu*k Up” is in order for the people here who don’t know when to praise the good work of these hard charging Marines!
Carry on!
@18,22…If chicks now can pass 0311…then I now look at that group (US Marine Infantry -enlisted) a lot more different than before. Being elite is not a mindset in itself.
@ 24 … OK … So how about this. Allow these 4 hardened Marines to review your comments and then address them as “chicks”.
OK … and then come back here tell me how that worked out!
These 4 Marines have their work cut out for them no doubt, however they are now part of that ELITE slice of the Marine Corps … the Infantry. Give credit where it is do!
Again, we should be celebrating their accomplishments for passing the course!
@ 24: Are you claiming that because a woman can pass the standards (un-lowered standards, as a reminder) then the unit can’t be “elite”? Is “elite” now defined solely by gender, and women can’t be in the club?
Please. elucidate a bit more.
The real test is going to be for NCOs trying to maintain discipline in a squad of hormone charged kids eating, sleeping, dressing, pooping, everythinging together. Does any proponent of this have any idea how infantryman are forced to interact with each other when they’re in the field? Pooping in a slit trench? Peeing while walking? Dressing next to your buddies? To say that infantrymen live like animals is an exaggeration, but maybe not much of one. I’m not saying that there aren’t women capable of doing much of it, I’m saying that 75% of men aren’t capable of keeping their composure around it. You might say that’s their problem, but it’s not; it will quickly become everyone’s problem. Why in the world do we approach the NFL more sensibly than we approach the USMC?
@ 27 … good points but as long as these Marines can shoot, throw hand grenades and choke the life out of the enemy … frankly I don’t give a damn about where the piss, sh!t, eat, sleep or get laid!
But you are correct NCO’s will have to do some course corrections … let’s just hope it is not during a fight!
CNN is reporting that its three, not four as one of them injured herself on the march and was unable to complete the combat fitness test. She’ll be allowed to take (or retake) the test after she comes off her profile.
As for women in combat units, I’ve always said if they can do the work, then let them do the work. I strongly suspect the three who are graduating can do the work better than some male soliders I’ve served with.
@28
My point was that the problems are things like discipline during training, lowered unit expectations vis a vis field sustainability, physical problems forcing women out of line assignments early, etc. And all not for increasing combat effectiveness, but for making us feel better.
Congrats on graduating ITB, the easiest thing you’ll ever do as infantry.
It’s not surprising they’d stop right there because the first fleet hump they’d all mostly likely fall out.
I do not know where all of these comments are coming from. Having lived the infantry for 21 of my 24 years of service, I cannot see any way in hell that women can make it long term in a grunt unit. Whoever said that the infantry live like animals was putting it mildly. This lifestyle was NOT made for females. I don’t care if they can march 100 miles. Over time, they are not going to be able to withstand the physical or the mental piece. Hate my comments if you want too, but it is the truth.
And as for NCO’s, their job is to train their troops for combat, not figure out relationship issues or who is peeking at who. This is just bad policy on so many levels. But hey, I am just an old dinosaur who don’t know shit. So congratulations ladies. You made it. Hope you don’t get any of your fellow grunts killed when the time comes.
Hope you don’t get pregnant right before deployment because you decided you didn’t want to go after all. Hope you don’t accuse your platoon sergeant of sexual assault because he chewed your ass for being sub standard. Hope you don’t screw your way through your platoon to get out of work. (oh and by the way, not a straw man argument, but actual events that have occurred in mixed gender units).
This is going to fail. Unfortunately it will not only fail in garrison, but also where the rubber meets the road.
OK. Four passed. They’re either ringers, or the standards actually were lowered … or both.
There’s always been so much more to being an effective infantryman than just meeting the physical standards during initial training, but even leaving all of that out we’re still left with an unacceptably high washout rate for females. This experiment in social engineering is doomed. The second- and third-order effects of creating “infantrywomen” will be ugly, chaotic, and bloody.
But, hey. Career advancement. W00T!
MGySgtRet knows so much more about this than I do. Don’t take my word for it. Listen to an actual grunt.
“Political correctness is communist propaganda writ small. In my study of communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to reality the better. When people are forced to remain silent when they are being told the most obvious lies, or even worse when they are forced to repeat the lies themselves, they lose once and for all their sense of probity. To assent to obvious lies is to co-operate with evil, and in some small way to become evil oneself. One’s standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control. I think if you examine political correctness, it has the same effect and is intended to.” – Theodore Dalrymple @30: Might as well give it a rest. Those who are capable of understanding already get it and don’t need it explained. Those who don’t already get it won’t no matter how it’s explained. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ (so I don’t appear to be trying to put words into 1/506’s mouth, all following is just me being me.) The solid unavoidable fact that women *will* be assigned to infantry on a quota basis, once these propaganda stunts are done to a sufficient T to convince the usual useful idiots, means that this pretense at honoring any standards is just a game to allow the dumbasses to bend over and drop trousers as per usual. Women will be assigned to infantry. This will be done by quota. The quota won’t give a solid damn about individual capability. Not. One. Damn. Barracks space will be divided up and the quota established by that will be met and maintained. Records and reports will be massaged to reflect all being well, despite actual facts, just as has been established by the USN onboard mixed sex ships. There will be piles of rape allegations, both real and imagined. There will be prostitution rings in every barracks. Unit cohesion will disappear. Discipline issues will reach and remain… Read more »
@ Ohio Coastie based on your blog name and comments above … we won’t take your word for it! (satirical pithy comment)
@ MGySgtRet … Copy all above!
I think the point here is to recognize the accomplishment of the 4 Marines!
I am absolutely certain they deserve that!
Everything else is a different story all together!
“And the last of our categories is The Truth Hurts.”
“Alex, I’ll take Grimmy and MGySgtRet for $1000.”
@ 37 … Well played. The Jeporady card …. Nice!
FINALLY no more MREs. The Corps now has dedicated sandwich makers for the infantry. Field day should be much easier now also.
it’s a joke. Lighten up Francis
Oh, I do see a lot of knees being crossed and laps being covered.
If, as does Grimmy, those of you who are making crass remarks think you aren’t as transparent as glass, you’re sadly mistaken. You’ve made it quite clear that the only way you can possibly think of these women or ANY OTHER WOMEN serving their country as nothing more than hookers on the prowl. That is SO 1960s. You are pathetic.
This is an accomplishment at its very least definition, and yet there’s this bunch of little boys showing up here with that ‘no girls allowed’ sign for the clubhouse door.
Well, it’s long past time you grew up, kiddos. My guess is that each of these women, and possibly even those that dropped, could pound you dissenters into the ground and dickstomp you at the same time. And I say that with no malice intended.
They made it through, they passed without lowered standards, you don’t even know what their scores were, and yet the best you can do is say ‘they’re stepping on my turf’???
You are such a bunch of wienies!
Here you, Ex-PH2.
That was supposed to be “Here you go, Ex-PH2.”
And you picked Spanky because…? Hmmm… perhaps a Freudian slip there, AirCav?
OK, well, here YOU go. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=have+you+ever+been+mistaken+for+a+man&FORM=VIRE4#view=detail&mid=5B65C67341258C3019715B65C67341258C301971
@43. Not bad but that guy with Vasquez looks like a transvestite to me.
Oh, you mean Jenette Goldstein. Here she is: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001280/
She won a Saturn award for her role as Vasquez in ‘Aliens’. She was also the Irish mother with three children who went down with the Titanic. She’s quite a chameleon as an actress, changing her appearance to suit the role.
Here’s her IMDB bio. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001280/
Looks like she has you completely fooled.
There’s this one, too. You’ll probably like it. It’s about women’s underwear. 🙂
@MCPO NYC USN (Ret.)
Laugh it up, squiddly. 😉 Look, if the 4 female Marines truly did pass the course w/o having any standards bent on their behalf, that’s praiseworthy. There are a very few women out there who can kick some men’s asses, and perhaps these Marines are among them. Fine.
But everybody here knows exactly what this dog and pony show is intended to do. The goal is to weaken our military and its influence on our culture. Creating infantrywomen accelerates that process. The first few will be (falsely) touted as being equally capable in every respect to infantrymen. Once they’re in the door, the quotas will follow. Then the performance standards for infantrywomen will be lowered, all in the name of equal career opportunity — and to hell with combat effectiveness.
In the next war, once our captured infantrywomen show up in propaganda videos being raped or beaten or beheaded, the inevitable public outcry for withdrawal will follow. Mission accomplished: a weak, ineffective US military.
@45. No, I meant the limp-wristed pale guy doing the pullups. His upper arms are about 10.5 inches round.
Oh, Mark Rolston. He’s a character actor, like Goldstein, fills in where needed. http://www.filmreference.com/film/69/Mark-Rolston.html
Here’s his CV for acting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rolston
He’s a busy guy. Also, he’s married and has three kids.
So much judgementalism, so little depth to it. Anyone else you want to diss?
@49
99% of the arguments about this are attacking straw men, as you are so capably beating up on. You have not addressed any of my concerns. You are either attacking me ad hominin or celebrating their achievement, which is different from celebrating the infantry’s achievement (those expressing dissent are concerned they are not the same). I apologize if there’s an element of “if you ain’t been there” to this subject, but I have yet to see anything in life that even vaguely approximates my experience in the infantry. The language of personal achievement does little to persuade the skeptics of the overall wisdom of this.