Women Rangers
COB6 sends this link to an Associated Press article about the Army’s discussion whether they’re going to let women in Ranger School;
Gen. Raymond Odierno, Army chief of staff, says he’s asked senior commanders to provide him with recommendations and a plan this summer. He says if women are eventually allowed to serve in the infantry, they would have to go to Ranger school in order to be competitive with their male counterparts as they move through the ranks.
Going to Ranger school does not automatically mean they would be allowed to serve in one of the Army’s three elite Ranger battalions, which are Army special operations forces. Women are not allowed to serve as special operators.
COB6 says “Every time we put a tanker in charge Rangers get f*cked!”
Category: Military issues
Well since women will be eventually allowed 11X MOS (sooner rather than later), why not.
Not much those who disagree with this concept in general can do to stop the tide.
If they eventually do this(and I pray they dont), there better not be a different set of standards for the split-tails. Either they can pass the course as is or they don’t deserve the tab, regardless of whether they’re able to serve in a Ranger Battalion or not.
Sure, let’s git er done!! When the standards are too tough, they will just lower them for the women, so it’s all good.
Ranger school – So easy even a girl can do it
There is no “if they eventually do this”. First females will be part of the class in January 2013.
Thanks for posting this, Jonn, and getting my blood pressure up all over again. I heard about this last week from some of my guys who are in RTB and I blew a gasket then. “Theoretically” there will be no difference in the requirements for the chicks. However, they are trying to figure out how to “accommodate” then regarding housing, latrines, etc.
That’s all I’m gonna say cuz anything else I say is going to be ugly.
Word is that it will happen late this year/early next year–early enough that there will be females at least in the pipeline before Obama potentially leaves office. And, best of all, that females “will” graduate at a rate comparable to males.
Long story short; you either do what it takes to pass the course, or you don’t pass. Do I believe there are women out there who can pass Ranger School? Of course there are. Do I believe that the standards will be sacrificed because the COSA will get pressure from NOW and other feminist organizations to ‘ease up on the girls.’ no doubt in my f#@king mind. Do I believ
Long story short; you either do what it takes to pass the course, or you don’t pass. Do I believe there are women out there who can pass Ranger School? Of course there are. Do I believe that the standards will be sacrificed because the COSA will get pressure from NOW and other feminist organizations to ‘ease up on the girls.’ no doubt in my f#@king mind. Do I believe soldiers will die from standards bring lowered thanks to social engineering? Yes. That is the sad truth of this, the only ones who will suffer from this will be the soldiers.
As much as I ever dreamed about being as tough as a guy, let alone a Ranger or a SEAL, I. don’t. like. this. I love my proverbial balls much more than trying to pretend I’ve got the real thing.
Get over yourselves, ladies…MEN are Rangers and SEALS. Females are merely strac, airborne soldiers. I will say, that if a chick can pass the same male standards than, at least she gets some kudos. But no. No female Rangers. IT. just. ain’t. right.
By the way, I hate female sportcasters, too. They just don’t have it.
Let us wait until we see more details first, and perhaps from those in charge of administering this program, before judging whether standards will be loosened or completely different for females.
When females and males are required to meet the same standards across the board in the Army as a whole… sure go ahead and continue your precious social experimentation….
If they do not meet the same standards as their male counterparts now, how is they are going to be expected to meet the same grueling standards as their male counterparts, in a course not meant to only test ones “leadership” but test their mental and physical endurance to be able to lead in Hell.
No, I never went to Ranger School but isn’t that the point of the school? If it is just a leadership course then everyone should go. It should be required even….
Good female soldiers deserve a shot at Ranger School; it’s the most important leadership school in the Army. It’s a professional course, not a combat billet, so if they can hack the same standards as the men are subject to now then good. At the same time, to echo others here, I don’t think that’s actually going to happen. Women will get crushed on the per capita graduation rates which will require “tweaking” of the course for women.
Hell I just wish they would open up sniper school…
I think it is funny that so many people here get their panties in a bunch that a gurls are being allowed in the school. That is it, nothing more goddamn. Holy shit the world is ending and the military is going to stop existitng. No it isn’t things will cary on like they did yesterday and the day before. Some guy will get pissy and decide that his ranger tab isn’t as cool as it used to be because a woman might be able to earn one. OOOOO scary…it may be experimentation, but hey not all expermintation comes out with negative results. I remember some damn good female apache pilots covering my ass a time or two. There was a time that no women were allowed in the army all together and now that they are is the military better or worse off? I would argue it is better. In years to come will this pay off for the better…I don’t know, but what is wrong with giving someone a shot?
Not only no but HELL NO!!!
COB6….I assume you mean the tanker is a General O?
General O is a Red Leg.
Well, I wonder if they’d just use the school as a check mark in the promotion process.
Question: How many officers who went to Ranger School actually served in a Ranger unit?
My son started ranger school this past Sunday and he and a couple of the other candidates came to our house for a big feed (I imagine they needed it) and were talking about this. I couldn’t believe it, but they were saying a couple of the RI’s were pissed about it (imagine that). Like others have said, if they can meet the same standards as the men, fair enough, but having different standards in BS!!
Hopefully they don’t have different standards like they do at sapper school…..reality is they will and the instructors will have to tip toe around and let people (women) slide that cant take the physical exertion let a lone the mental. Why not first do the social experiments on the army as a whole by making on physical standard then one mental standard then one set of rules then one set of punishments. Etc etc etc. I am all for women doing whatever the men do as long as it is the same standard.
#8 said: Do I believe soldiers will die from standards bring lowered thanks to social engineering? Yes. That is the sad truth of this, the only ones who will suffer from this will be the soldiers.
That right there! This civilian (female…lol) agrees.
There was an essay a few years ago (I can’t remember who wrote it) that talked about women in the military by reminding us about how the Greeks classified the different kinds of love. Eros (romantic love) exists between sexual partners and is exclusive while Philos (brotherly love) can be inculcated within certain institutions-such as the military-and is inclusive. But love tied to something as primal and basic as sex is very powerful and can overwhelm brotherly love which is based largely on concepts like duty and loyalty. I don’t think we appreciate this in modern society.
Sexual relationships pervert the institution because individuals will go to great extremes to protect that significant other often at the expense of those less significant. I have seen time and again situations where leaders were involved (or, just as bad, believed to be involved) in sexual relationships and either showed, or were believed to have shown, favoritism based on that. That’s cancer in an organization where merit has to matter and where people are in close quarters with one another for extended periods.
As John Travolta said in Grease: “Don’t make me laugh!”
BWAHAHAHA…
A SMA with a P3 profile pushing for physical training he can’t do.
Women in the Rangers. (I’m sure they won’t change the standards /snort)
No tattoos because something something I don’t like teenagers dancing (or was that Footloose?).
Hey we already have LDRSHIP but what else can we add or change to that to reflect our MODERN, FOCUS GROUP DIRECTED ARMY?
Yeah. This is getting better and better each day.
Jeez, you guys make this tough. Just issue the tabs in Basic Training along with the black berets. See? Simple!
sigh
Ranger school will, like the Q Course, return to the days of being a ‘Gentleman’s Course’ without the sadistic rigor it’s had over the past forty years.
There’s never been a school, or job, that women were allowed to attend or perform without there being a separate, lower standard for women.
Except corpse. One standard there. Death don’t give a shit.
i guess every patrol base will have port-a-johns now? can’t imagine the women using the same slit trenches as the men. Not against women in the IN, just no possible way you can accommodate their hygiene needs at Ranger.
-Tabbed Tanker
I see Jason’s points. I believe that many people do have legitimate concerns in terms of Ranger school being ‘diluted’ for women, a separate set of standards if you will.
But I also suspect that there is a somewhat sexist element to the animosity. Saying this probably won’t make me the most popular person around here but one can’t deny there is some of it.
Think about it, Ranger school is one of the hardest, if not THE hardest, military leadership school in the country. I do not profess to know what it is all about, but from reading and seeing videos of Ranger School, I can’t imagine the determination and intestinal fortitude it takes to make it all the way through.
I think the thought that women passing Ranger School and earning a tab probably rubs some the wrong way, as it is no longer as ‘exclusive’ as it used to be. Maybe there was some element of that when combat support soldiers were allowed to attend Ranger School. Once women start getting tabs, where does it end? Women Ranger units? Special Forces qualified?
The bottom line is that we won’t know exactly what standards are going to be in place, until the first class goes through or we hear more from those in the know. Until then anything else is just pure speculation.
No. 15 DOC BAILEY “Not only no but HELL NO!!!”
I can not say it better, Doctor:
Affirmative (= NO !! )
No. 29 above: It is I, forgot again .
“I suspect a somewhat sexist element to the animosity.”
I suspect a degree of somewhat smug arrogance in that comment.
Why would females fare any better in combat now than ever before? What has changed to make that the case? What miracle of biology has occurred?
Who denied them their rightful place in cemeteries from Arlington to Normandy, Bataan to Gettysburg? Lincoln? FDR?
Or, is it more to the point that we no longer intend to actually compete in this world, and sell-outs like Ray Odierno and Martin Dempsey are okay with rapid force degradation.
Swamp phase infections… oh yeah.
Blank Slate… I wonder if that is supposed to mean something.
Honestly, I don’t think there was no smugness behind that comment. Maybe he is just stating an opinion. There is a lot of people here that think that someone doesn’t belong because of a chromosome and not wether or not they can make it. Sure they will say standards will lower, but if you ask 90% of the people here they will tell you that standards are always lower than they used to be and it was harder when they went. It is an unending argument that will never end. 20 some years ago it was fighter and helicopter pilots and now we don’t think anything about pilots. If a rachet works better than an impact I want a rachet… Same thing here another tool in the toolbox. Or do we want to play the “no gurls allowed” game?
@ #26 You said, “There’s never been a school, or job, that women were allowed to attend or perform without there being a separate, lower standard for women.”
That simply is not true. But keep telling yourself the lie if it makes you sleep better at night.
I think it is funny that some people really haven’t seen women squat pissing in a trench before? Did you know they have things so that women can piss standing up? Really hygiene arguments, are you in jr high? Grow up people.
@ #31 “Why would females fare any better in combat now than ever before? What has changed to make that the case? What miracle of biology has occurred?”
You might want to check out the complete history of women in combat. There have always been women in combat in one way or another. I would especially suggest that you look into the mandatory military service of Israeli women from around 1950 into the 1980’s or so.
OWB now don’t you go bringing in history into this or we might discover Tsarist Russia, 1800s Nigeria, or a few other places that aren’t usually mentioned.
As others have said, I don’t have a problem with women in Ranger School as long as the standards aren’t compromised. I haven’t been yet (hoping to go though), but I’ve heard stories of how legendarily hard it is. The problem is that there will be two sets of standards again, if they want a 50% graduation rate for women instead of, say, a 10% rate.
Nothing against women, but they’re not as physically strong and lack the endurance of males, biologically. I’m sure mentally, the same percentage would be able to hack it, but if they’re held to the same physical standards as males, the politicians won’t get the results they want.
Jonn:
We can avoid the Christmas rush…let’s all get COB6 a pink RANGER tab and drop it in the mail.
Leaving aside for a moment the entire women in combat argument, am I reading correctly that women will not be permitted to be assigned to a Ranger unit, whether they pass the course or not? If this is so, why waste the time?
Pandora, it’s for their careers, doncha know?
re #40
Ranger school is not a pre-req for the Ranger Regiment. Quite a few E2 to E4s in the Regiment have never been, even more, including NCOs, in the Regiment’s Special Troops Battalion, which provides support. It’s also not a gateway school for the Regiment.
The specific course material is out of my lane (I’m a former Marine who’s never been) but my understanding is that it’s basically an arduous leadership course centered around a tactical and combat environment. As the premier leadership course in the Army it’s basically required for career minded infantry officers above O3 and hard charging senior NCOs.
Whenever this issue gets brought up in the infantry regarding females joining combat units, or attending male-only schools and billets the same points get brought up over and over again. I’ll summarize here for everyone’s benefit -There are woman who can, and should be, in combat units. We’ve all met at least one. They are physical studs who can put most of us, myself included, to shame. Unfortunately for every one woman you know like that, you can rattle off the names of 10 more who do not possess the desire, nor the physical abilities to function at even the basic minimums required of combat soldiers. In order to open the doors for those few qualified women, the rest must be allowed entry. I realize that most, if not all would be cut in the selection process for the more elite units (SF, Rangers, etc), so in this case I’m talking about the trickle down effect on infantry units specifically. -The culture of our Army is too focused on the “differences” between men and women while still trying to promote equality. On one hand we yell and thump our chests about how we’re all one army, and everyone deserves equal treatment. One the other we change the physical standards for women, the hygiene requirements are taken to the limit (here I reference porta-potties at training events, you all know what I’m talking about). There’s also the very real physical seperation issue that we seem to be obsessed with. Women must have their own tents, their own lockable showers and bathrooms,guards are posted if the facilities must be shared. I understand the threat of sexual assault is out there, but to assume that we’re all rapists-in-training does not seem to fit with the image the Army is trying to project. Even if women are allowed in Ranger school, I can’t see us making the required mental shift to allow women into the line units, or male-only combat slots -#36 OWB mentioned Israel. I’ve had the pleasure of dealing with the Israeli military and they have the right idea. I’m not agreeing… Read more »
Why the fuck are girls going to Ranger School theres no ponit. They cant even pass SAPPER school. And if they do fucking get to go to Ranger school then they better be shitting in the same fucking hole and getting kicked when they get tired to complete the mission. O yea and when then get on there mensterual cycle they better suck it up because i know we dont stop the fight for bullshit like that and carry the same fucking weight.
“I know women who can graduate Ranger School”….yada yadya yada… what school? Ranger? Are you serious?
Combat is physical. I’m not talking about getting sniped at on a convoy. Dak To Pork-Chop Hill etc… When you call in a unit to save the day, or have to take a hard objective, you need a tough hard-core unit trained for that.
As for the leadership thing… the NCO Academies, IOBC etc.. are leadership schools… Ranger/Q course is a gut check… and after you passed, you know that you and your fellow grads accomplished something that 99% of the other soldiers could not/chose not/ or would not do. That puts you in a group that you can be assured, that when the gut check is called upon… the failure rate would be diminished due to the past training.
How many women cadets at West Point, Air Force Academy, Naval Academy, Coast Guard Academy are on the football team?
The 20 miler humping the 4 duece with base plate… any takers?
I see a lot of people saying that Ranger school is a leadership school. BS!!!! I was career Infantry but was never granted approval to attend Ranger school for one simple reason. While I far exceeded the physical standards the docs would never sign off on my application because I could not reach the required body fat index to survive. No, I wasn’t fat, just the opposite. I am a skinny minny. They would not approve my application unless I could get to at least 6% body fat and they would prefer something in the range of 10 – 12%. The reason. That layer of body fat is what you survive off of with the reduced food intake you experience while going through the course. It is also necessary to help stave off hypothermia that you may experience in the swamps of Eglin or the mountains of Dahlonega in the winter time.
For the record I did pass the SFOD-D (Delta) Selection and Assessment Phase just to give you an idea that yes I was in excellent physical shape.
defendUSA – I am TOTALLY with you on this. TOTALLY.
It has nothing to do with hygiene at all. It merely has to do with certain roles being for men. I’m am SICK AND TIRED of entitlement.
Captain J: It sounds rather like we are on the same page on this issue. I have not had the pleasure of dealing with Israeli troopers in over 20 years, so have no direct knowledge of how things have changed with them. Appreciate your insight. It sounds as if things are philosophically much the same.
Will never understand the objection some seem to still hold that we have the luxury of eliminating from any job those who want to do the job, are mentally and physically able to do the job, and can be trained to do it well.
And, yes, the pregnancy issue is a serious one. I had a preggers female commander once. It was just icky! But, in her defense, she timed the pregnancy carefully and the worst issue we had with it was getting her seat belted into a Jeep late in the pregnancy. She asked no special treatment and had her command in order to deal with her time away.
How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time! Slowly the left devours the military that they love to hate!
“Standards will not be lowered…” Where have I heard that before?
Another military program being turned into a pump instead of a filter. Just fuckin great.