You had to be told?
H1 sends an NBC link to the US military’s latest “no shit” moment;
All U.S. military personnel in Afghanistan are to be required to have a fully loaded magazine in their weapons at all times in response to a spike in attacks by rogue members of the Afghan government’s forces.
A senior military official told NBC News that the order “could save precious seconds” in responding to a so-called “green-on-blue” attack and hopefully save lives.
The U.S. military-wide order was issued after six Marines were killed by members of the Afghan forces in two separate attacks last week. Two U.S. service members and an Afghan police officer were also killed Friday by a newly recruited Afghan village police officer, according to officials.
U.S. military officials told NBC News that the new order did not mean personnel were required to keep a round in the chamber.
So, it’s like the military just discovered that soldiers with loaded weapons are safer. I wonder who figured that shit out.
So to whoever it was that asked the question why he was only reading on this blog that folks weren’t armed, it’s because folks who are currently in Afghanistan were telling us about their recent experiences – I wasn’t just pulling it out of my ass. I’m not saying that it was happening in every unit, but it seems to me that a prospective murderer would pick targets who are unarmed, otherwise there wouldn’t be quite so many Afghans escaping to safety or being simply arrested.
I don’t know who at the Pentagon decided this was a good idea, but I’m glad they finally did. Of course, it naturally follows their plan to face their desks towards the door of their respective offices.
More from Fox News;
The directive, confirmed by Fox News, was issued by International Security Assistance Force Commander Gen. John Allen. It says that troops should no longer simply keep ammunition magazines close by — instead, those magazines should be loaded in the weapons.
Depending on where troops are stationed in Afghanistan, this is not an entirely new practice. At Bagram Air Base, for example, weapons carried by NATO troops are often inspected upon entry to make sure they are loaded. But that was not the practice at ISAF headquarters in Kabul where service members have, until now, been directed to empty their ammunition upon entering the base.
Category: Terror War
The Rules: Be polite, be professional, have a plan to kill everyone
That’s like the idiot campus police who I was working secondary for, for their carnival, told me to keep my weapon but just unload it for “safety”, I could still keep the rounds in my jacket pocket, but I was forbidden to carry my speedloaders or my handcuffs or my pepper spray or my asp. Washington University, in St. Louis MO, and I was a Police Auxiliary in the county and a Licensed Security Officer and vetted Federal Contract Security Officer. But I could keep the rounds in my pocket. Thinking like that gets people killed quick.
I’ve been asking about this for years. Never got any kind of answer other than mumbles and blank stares. Senior NCO’s and Officers get agitated when you press them for “Why?”
really don’t think the “go loaded” idea came from the pentagon. more than likely from State or some other dept. with out a clue. However, with the rash of murders the Generals finally overrode the State Dept weinies…
goofed it up, meant go unloaded…not loaded
Why the flock would you park a car in your garage without a full tank? Go figure…
We had to deal with the same kind of institutional stupidity in Vietnam. At one point in early 1966, following a series of accidental shootings, we couldn’t carry our weapons with a round chambered, even when on combat operations. And that applied to night operations deep in Indian Country. I remember a company briefing as we were preparing to set up for the night several klicks from our base camp, where we NCOs were told by the company commander that as our men set up the defensive perimeter, we were to make sure they had no rounds chambered and to make sure they understood they were not to fire their weapons without clearance from the company TOC. In disbelief I asked that captain, ‘Sir, you mean even if we receive fire from in close or our trip-flares start going off?” When he replied in the affirmative, that it was a new Field Force reg, I rolled my eyes which got me a quick ass-chewing and nipped any further protests in the bud. Upon being dismissed, several of us NCO’s had our own quick briefings and then went back to our positions and had our troops build shelved parapets in front of every fighting position. We then pooled our grenades and lined them up with the pens slightly crimped. The unofficial RoE for that night were if Charlie set off a trip-flare, toss a grenade out. We had no friendly units on any of our flanks and we knew damned well we didn’t have time to wait for clearance from the TOC if the VC got in close enough to trip a booby trap. And, we rationalized, nothing had been said at the briefing about grenades. Fortunately, that night and the next were uneventful, and the ridiculous order from Field Force HQ was rescinded within 72 hours. However, we were periodically, and always temporarily, burdened with such idiocy when some staff genius back at Field Force got a similar brain-fart. And yes, we sergeants made absolutely certain all those grenade pins were splayed wide again first thing each morning that ridiculous… Read more »
Iraq 06, I had a device on my M4 that allowed me to carry a spare magazine (Boonie Packer Redi-Mag). Since we were required to carry a magazine at all times anyway, I figured it was easiest to keep the magazine on the weapon. It was also handy as I was able to have 56 rounds on my rifle when running slick in the truck turret.
Unfortunately, appearances wise anyway, it attached to the weapon next to magazine well and to some people it appeared that I was carrying a magazine in my rifle. Had to deal with everything from some random moron shouting “WE’RE GREEN ON THE FOB” from about 50 yards away as I walked back to my tent from the vehicle yard to well meaning NCO’s who needed glasses when they’d tap me on the shoulder in the DFAC to let me know we didn’t have loaded weapons on the FOB. Even my PSG confronted me about it, asking ‘if I enjoyed causing trouble’.
I kept it on there until the day we flew home, but bowed to the ‘wisdom’ of others and started carrying a pistol magazine for my M9…which is a WHOLE other story.
having our weapon in amber status was the standard on our fob in afghanistan, but when a new base commander took over before we left he changed it to a green fob because he thought it was too dangerous to have a loaded mag in our weapons while on the fob… in a warzone…
I can only say it’s about cotton pickin’ time people were told they can carry loaded weapons.
Poetrooper and the rest of you, I’m very glad you made it back in one piece.
FRIDAY NIGHT 2 Whiskey Editorial:
Tell the Marines in Beruit and other services members along with our allies who were killed there that they now can keep there weapons FULLY LOADED. Well they are dead because they were prevented. The USS COLE same situation, 50 cals manned and unloaded. Khobar Towers, we were told Hezbollah Al-Hejazwere was going to attack … yet at THREATCON CHARLIE all we could do was sound the alarm … thank God the verbal alarm was effective. I never went on duty without a fully loaded weapon that is “one in chamber and a pressed-up (reloaded) magazine”. Condition this and green that … amber this and fuck*n load your weapons boys and girls because these people want to blow you up, chop off your head, and change your way of life back at home. If cops uniformed and plainclothes carry fully loaded 24/7 here at home … then would it not make equal or more sence to do the same or more overseas IN A WAR ZONE? Perhaps a basic course for senior officers is in order … “Tactical and Strategic Benefits of Fully Loaded and Ready Weapons Systems in War, Hostile, and Conflict Zones”. Hell it could be a 5 minute online course. Who makes such decisions … do we not remember … we have seen this before!
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” George Santayana.
From the Wikipedia entry about the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut, 1983:
“At around 6:20 a.m., a yellow Mercedes-Benz truck drove to Beirut International Airport, where the 1st Battalion 8th Marines under the 2nd Marine Division had set up its local headquarters. The truck was not the water truck they had been expecting, but a hijacked truck carrying the explosives. The truck turned onto an access road leading to the Marines’ compound and circled a parking lot. The driver then accelerated and crashed through a barbed wire fence around the parking lot, passed between two sentry posts, crashed through a gate and drove into the lobby of the Marine headquarters. The Marine sentries at the gate were operating under rules of engagement which made it very difficult to respond quickly to the truck. SENTRIES WERE ORDERED TO KEEP THEIR WEAPONS AT CONDITION FOUR (NO MAGAZINE INTERTED AND NO ROUNDS IN THE CHAMBER) [my emphasis added].
By the time the two sentries were able to engage, the truck was already inside the building’s entry way, armed.”
The souls of the Marines and other service members who were killed and wounded, both physically and emotionally, must be weeping…
ROG That Marine!
I suggest a week of direct fire with live rounds and IEDs loaded into trucks driven and aimed straight at the people who think troops in a combat zone should not have loaded weapons when on duty.
Did those morons ever hear of Gallipoli?
If there are any former senior officers reading this, it would certainly be interesting to hear their take on this subject. I’ve always viewed it as a bit of a, “Damned if you do and damned if you don’t,” situation for a commander on the ground. No one wants accidental deaths in his command when they seem so easily preventable by the issuance of a simple order, “Clear all weapons when you come in through the wire.” However a single hostile incursion can produce far more deaths of disarmed and unprepared troops than several year’s worth of accidental shootings. For the officer concerned about the safety of his troops, which is the greater risk? For the officer keeping a sharp eye to the promotion board, which is the greater risk?
For distant bureaucrats, it’s a no-brainer: disarm the troops. If any of them happen to get killed, it’s nothing more than an unfortunate incident for which the local commander can always be made the goat.
What is so peculiar about this is that it seems to be such a uniquely AMERICAN thing. Other countries don’t seem to have this squeamishness about their troops walking about locked and cocked and their troops don’t seem to be killing each other off accidentally at unacceptable rates.
In fact, the only accidental death I ever witnessed in this manner was that of a young private who was ordered by our platoon sergeant to carry a wooden crate full of flares and grenades, gathered after we came in through the wire, over to the ammo sump we’d dug into the beach sand at Tuy Hoa. He was pissed at being detailed so he angrily threw the case into the sump which already contained several other such crates. Biggest fucking mistake of his young and brief life…
Funny how for SFOR 14 (Bosnia) in 03-04 we had to be armed and ready at all times…when the facts were nobody there was ever going to bother us and at least 80% of the soldiers were totally retarded with weapons.
In OIF3 we were armed but “unloaded” on most of the camps…same thing–most of the soliders I was with wouldn’t have been able to lock and load understress without fucking it up.
I would wager that more accidental discharges occur while clearing weapons than at any other time. Our numbers from Iraq “green on the fob,” to Afghanistan “living in hole with your squad (round chambered),” reflected that anyway. Alas not a senior NCO perspective, only an e-5. In any case, if I followed that correctly… Am I to understand that you believe the backwards savages we’re fighting are able to discern a soft target from a less soft target?
John, I loved the scorn in every letter of this post. I am also glad that common sense eventually found its way into the pentagon.
I can’t help but think this unloaded weapons policy can’t be all that widespread. I was an advisor for an Afghan Kandak, and we were required to have loaded weapons (on red status) when we went to the Afghan side of our FOB. Weapons were amber on on the NATO side. Afghan soldiers could not bring weapons to our side, and couldn’t have weapons on their side unless they were on guard or training. This was as recent as May 2012. Just my experience, and probably not the same across theater. As a team chief, I wouldn’t let my guys go anywhere on the Afghan side without another team member and a loaded weapon regardless of our relationships with our individual counterparts. It isn’t your counterpart you have to worry about – it’s the 600 other Afghan Soldiers in the Kandak you have to keep your eye on.
When I volunteered for Katrina, we were given a safety brief that said we were not to lock-and-load unless given direct authorization from the TOC. One of our convoys came under fire from a building. I was in the TOC at the time helping to figure out a Log run for water to the flooded areas.
The 1LT who was in charge at the time actually asked if they have clear lines of fire to the target and the potential for civilians to be in the vicinity. Well, the SFC on the radio misunderstood and said the civilians were definitely in the vicinity (meaning the shooters). The 1LT told the convoy to not return fire and continue with mission because… of all the damn things… there was a news helicopter in the area and we didn’t need it on the news.
Well, a Police sniper got out of one of the rigs, fired three rounds… no more shooters from the windows. The 1LT at first believed it was one of the soldiers and ordered the SFC to return to the Command Point immediately. He actually started to dress-down the SFC until the police sniper stepped up.
Same shit, different day. Need to cover your butt for the media, who cares what troopies get hurt.
I recon I would be trouble. I aleays carried my .38 loaded. AS soon as we cleared the wire wherever the 60s were cocked and ready. Of course this was the RVN and looser ROE.
That was me that asked the question about being told to be unarmed. Wasn’t trying to instigate anything, or even say that shit was pulled out of your ass, so calm down, people here seem to get upset when they are questioned, or are disagreed with. I actually love this blog, and follow it regularly, also agree with 99% of things said on here. The being unarmed thing, this is my third time in country over here. I know ISAF Hq makes you go 4(Green) there, thats why I only pretend to unload my M9 and make a show of unloading my M4, I refuse to be disarmed in country. Now I will say that some units try to make their personnel go green, but there is no directive that has been passed down to any unit from ISAF stating we are not to have loaded weapons on us. I have had Afghans try to make me unload before entering their compounds, a shake of the head and a curt “f-you” normally suffices for them to drop it. So, with that being said, I have posted under the other name of SandBag0369, and have a couple lengthy posts explaining what is going on over here, especially with some of the units and IA personnel sent in country. Do some commanders need to pull their heads out their asses? You’re damn skippy they do, but some common sense needs to be applied at the lower levels as well. Like, don’t allow the Afghans to disarm you, stop thinking the locals are your friends, stop taking off your gear every chance you get, actually establish overwatch when at ANA/ANP compounds, and actually learn to use your weapon. There is some extremely atrocious weapons handling over here, ie. personnel not knowing how to unload their M9. I have tried to set up classes and periods of instruction for the personnel here that do not have my Marines providing PSD, on such things as M240 employment, guardian angel/overwatch procedures, Hasty LZ briefs and 9-Lines, comm classe, and small arms ranges. Nobody seems very interested… Read more »
During my tour at Bagram (08-09), every weapon had a loaded magazine in the magazine well and everyone carried those weapons everywhere. The only place my M9 was not at my side was inside the JOC building and Afghan nationals were not permitted there, except for the once-daily head (sorry, latrine) cleaning crew. Of course, that cleaning crew was assigned an armed escort while they were inside the JOC.
To have done things any differently would have just been stupid.
And don’t get me started on the folly of wearing reflective belts in a combat zone….
Going to GREEN weapons status (e.g., weapons and ammo on person, no mag in weapon) probably made sense on most US/ISAF installations while I was there in 2007. (As I recall, Bagram AB was an exception; there, you went to AMBER – mag in, no round chambered.) There were very few Green-on-Blue incidents at that time, and my sense is that conditions were generally much calmer in most parts of Afghanistan than they are today. Outside the wire, you generally went to RED (mag in, round chambered, safety on).
It hasn’t made much sense for the last 2-3 years, though. The incidence of violence in general, and of Green-on-Blue in particular, has risen. So it’s way past time that this policy changed to reflect reality – politics be damned.
As it stands right now over here: Major FOBs and camps are condition 3/Amber, minus ISAF HQ and the U.S. Embassy which are condition 4/Green. Though from what I understand both of those changed to 3/Amber a few days ago.
Condition 1/Red whenever outside the wire, on ANSF compounds and Coalition PB’s and COP’s. Though it changes from PB to PB and COP to COP.
I have either my pistol or rifle in condition 1 at all times, no matter where I may be and the same with my Marines. Not taking any chances.
Wow, where to start.
I grew up in Hawaii and in the late 80s, early 90s, and two different times at Bellows AFB, one each someones rammed / tried to ram and run thru the front security post. Those guards had their weapons on Red and emptied a magazine into the vehicle before it could get 50 feet past them. Bellows was basically a camping / vacation spot at that point. However, in combat zones there are different levels of what you can do and where.
Bosnia (90s): Green inside the wire, amber outside
Iraq (05): Green inside the wire, red outside
Afghanistan: Amber inside the wire, red outside
I’d say in Baghdad in 05-06 it was pretty hairy (50ish SIGACTs a day), which was just strange as to why we were Green on the Camps/FOBs. After going to Afghanistan, it was just kind of odd to think back on the difference between the two.
As much as we didn’t trust the ANA, the ASG were the most trustworthy LNs on the FOB as far as we were concerned. In a couple cases they even died defending the FOB and doing their jobs, saving lives.
Biggest problem is, the longer you stay somewhere, the more bean counters and bureaucrats get involved in making decisions so they can put a note on their evaluation about “improving security efficiency” or some such bollocks. Granted, when someone gets shot, they’re never to blame…
@19, sounds like ass clowns I worked with on deployments…