And now for the other side
Despite my defense of Sgt Coppa, I firmly believe that IVAW should be listed as a subversive organization. Subversion is defined in Title 18 of the United States Code:
Sec. 2387. Activities affecting armed forces generally
(a) Whoever, with intent to interfere with, impair, or influence the loyalty, morale, or discipline of the military or naval forces of the United States:
(1) advises, counsels, urges, or in any manner causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty [You mean like Chiroux, Long et al??] by any member of the military or naval forces of the United States; or
(2) distributes or attempts to distribute any written or printed matter which advises, counsels, or urges insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty by any member of the military or naval forces of the United States–Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next
following his conviction.
(b) For the purposes of this section, the term “military or naval forces of the United States” includes the Army of the United States, the Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, Naval Reserve, Marine Corps Reserve, and Coast Guard Reserve of the United States; and, when any merchant vessel is commissioned in the Navy or is in the service of the Army or the Navy, includes the master, officers, and crew of such vessel.
And even more damning for IVAW:
Sec. 2388. Activities affecting armed forces during war
(a) Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully makes or conveys false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies; or
Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or willfully obstructs the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States, to the injury of the service or the United States, or attempts to do so–
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty
years, or both. [taking the rest out since it is largely non-germane]
There is no way on Spongebob’s green Earth you can convince me that IVAW doesn’t meet that definition to a “Tee.” They are even brazen about it:
Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW) and the Portland, Oregon based artist collaborative Red76 have joined together on a counter-recruitment project entitled Befriend a Recruiter; an initiative with the goal of clogging the military’s ability to enlist new recruits. By having as many people as can be galvanize pose as individuals interested in joining the Army, you, as part of Befriend a Recruiter, can help begin the end of this war. By flooding recruiters and recruitment centers with phone calls, appointments, questions, and smiling faces, we force recruiters to occupy their time and resources on us. By your calling and asking every question you can think of, about all the false opportunities the military offers, you are stealing away recruiters’ ability to successfully recruit.
So, if they made me Sec Def for a day, IVAW would find themselves listed, and they’d have a nano-second to resign or be brought up on charges. But, going after a lowly sergeant for belonging to a group which the DoD hasn’t yet deigned to find as “subversive” seems a misuse of resources.
There, can I have my friends back now?
Category: Politics
TSO, you are just trying to kick every ant hill today aren’t you?
You Wrote:
“or willfully obstructs the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States”
Clearly IVAW does this and brags about it, so does Code Pink on a grand scale (remember the UCMJ thing in Berkley?) BUT…..
“to the injury of the service or the United States”
All branches of the military have exceeded recruiting goals, therefore, said action was not “demonstrably” injurious to the United States.
That small clause hase kept many a moonbat out of prison since Vietnam.
TSO Wrote: LOL. well, wanted to post something for the gristmill, but had I known about the Interpreter issue before, I would have avoided all these topics and focused on that one.
I’m kind of leaving the other one alone, because it’s weird to post specifically about myself. Unless someone has a point of fact or question they want answered from me specifically, and I think everyone knows where to find me.
On this, however:
I didn’t think National IVAW had endorsed this: to the best of my knowledge it was created by the DC house though I could be wrong. Again, from my admittedly limited understanding, it was an attempt to get those who were already attempting to hinder recruiting to do it in a kinder, gentler way that was not stressful. To kind of pull those who were being absolutely wrong to a middle ground.I think it’s at least two years old, though again I could be wrong.
Personally, I don’t support it. I do support “Truth In Recruiting” campaigns, that inform youths that might enter military service about what’s really going on, and that even if their recruiter has lied and told them no one ever goes to war in their MOS, it can still happen, etc, etc.
However, you make an excellent point, and I will see what can be done to change this if we are still supporting it.
You are having some fun today grasshopper.
Your first post re: AS begged the question. Do you have specifics about the alleged charges? If so, where did you get this information, and more importantly, have you verified same?
It would appear that the genesis (and/or catalyst) for this has been the actions of her VFW Post commander
You’ve built a whole scenario around something, but just what?
Your fundamental defense of AS has merit, but there’s a specious element as well. She clearly supports the IVAW and it’s goals. It’s not our job to rationalize her motives… only the results. It’s the old ‘yelling fire in a crowded theater’ thing. It ain’t illegal if the theater is actually on fire.
Someone pointed out the obvious in the comments. I’ve said as much chatting with her online. ‘Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.’
Finally, if she is prosecuted for some illegitimate offense, I’ll stand beside her. If she is somehow used as a scapegoat, I’ll stand beside her. But just now – it’s the fleas.
I served in Iraq during OIF I and was an early member if IVAW. I am proud of having served my country in Uniforn. Unlike the stereotype, I fully expected to be deployed to war and even spent the month before bootcamp saying goodbye to family and friends around the country. Iraq, however, was not a necesary war and actually weakened the national security of the United States.
The term counter recruiting is misleading. I prefer the term truth in recruiting. I think that potential recruits should know what they are signing up for. They should know about substandard medical care, poor treatment and how they will be treated both in the service and when negotiating the VA. I have made the offer many times that I will personally take people to the recruiting station if they want to join after speaking with me. Most members of IVAW are the same.
I have known Sgt. Coppa for several years and know her to be a dedicated and loyal solider. She cares deeply about her comrades in uniform and is dedicated to saving lives while supporting and defending the constitution. I am not sure what more could be asked for in an NCO.
COB6 Wrote: I appreciate all patrons of TAH, you included but you are either seriously misguided or a garden variety idiot. I checked your website and you seem to be a talented and successful guy so act like one. The term “counter recruiting” is not something created here; it was created by the anti-American cabal of malcontents that you have chosen to align yourself with. I suggest growing up, focus on your business and family; you will be happier.
PS: Do you do work out of state? I’m about to purchase a fairly significant property in SC and I like your work.
Being a Hospital Man, would you have been a part of that “substandard medical care”? Just asking.
So, how did you arrive at the idea that Iraq was unnecessary, and how has it “weakened the national security of the United States”? Did IVAW point that out to you, or was it Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon or Jane Fonda?
And YOU prefer the term “truth in recruiting”? But IVAW doesn’t, so obviously, by staying with them, you endorse their terminology and tactics? Just asking, yet again. And EVERY recruit will receive substandard medical care, poor treatment and they’ll be treated poorly in the service? That seems to be what you’re saying.
The term counter recruiting is misleading. I prefer the term truth in recruiting.
Somehow, IVAW has dropped ‘the truth’ out of their Befriend a Recruiter scheme: Via Befriend A Recruiterhttp://www.befriendarecruiter.org/tactics.html
There is wrong, and Army Wrong. Things not to say:
+ Do not insult the recruiter; don’t tell them they are lying or full of sh-t.
+ Don’t tell them you are part of a “Truth in Recruiting,” or Anti-War campaign. They probably will not respond favorably.
+ Don’t name any groups or people that you organize with. As with all friendships, you’ll be rewarded for, “being yourself.”
PS: THe VA is a global leader in reducing HAI’s and in the management of patient information. I am calling bullhockey on your statement substandard care at the VA.
TSO, I’m still your friend. Would take more than this (if anything could at all) to drive me away.
Since I’m not a member of the military I’ll leave all of the military part of this to those of you who are qualified to write, respond, “judge” that. But as an American I find Army Sergeant’s actions and writings to be disgusting, unprofessional and disrespectful to the uniform she chooses to wear. It is my understanding (I apologize if I am wrong) that this is not her first hitch in the Army. If that IS the case then why in the hell did she re-enlist?
I read Army Sergeant’s blog. While some of her posts are just blather to me others, in my opinion, were written to incite, not to provoke discussion. In one particular post “A Greeting To My Distinguished Visitors” she was even advised/admonished to take the post down and didn’t.
Look, I don’t know what all of the military rules and regs are. And I don’t wish any single mother to be in a position of potential job loss and/or more. But Army Sergeant made her choices so she will have to live with any ramifications that might come from them provided they are legal. Otherwise, you reap what you sow.
I feel sorry for A/S, but I recall several people on here warning her that she was pulling the tiger’s tail. You never know when that SOB will turn around and notice you.
True, she’s been known to meander to and from on the issue’s discussed, the thing that really urks my tail is someone whom has access to or knows her and possibly intimately, elected to publish *private* info.
I don’t always agree with her but I do have a certain amount of respect for her. In my opinion instead of beating her about the ears verbally everyone should consider coming together and find the a$$hat that put the info out in the wild.
In my opinion, that’s flat out endangerment.
Does anyone remember the list of subversive organizations that we had to read and sign? I do. I have been trying to get a copy. I don’t remember the form number and when I got a copy of my service record from the Archives, it wasn’t in it. I could use some help in this matter as it will be an educational tool for the grandkids.
I just don’t have any sympathy. There is a fine line for performing duty and having convictions that are the opposite and then espousing them among liars and losers.
The notion that any of the people who associate with IVAW etc…and claims that the Army lied to them while being recruited, blah,blah, blah only reflects the idiocy of the recruit.
Take responsibility. It’s too late to change what has been done.
If AS had any allegiance at all to the oath we all took upon enlisting, then perhaps despite freedom of speech, she should have waited until ETS, or retirement to jump on the IVAW band wagon.
Reaping what we sow and owning it. Start now.
Truth in Recruiting. What do you think the military is? Its not the Boy Scouts. HM2 and AS you guys need to focus on something else. Why don’t you help real veterans and not these posers you have aligned with. You know the old saying, you lie with dogs you get fleas.
There seems to be some confusion about what I was getting at regarding the “substandard Healthcare” comment. I was referring to the Walter Reed fiasco as well as the VA. I would never blame the guys on the line for the failing of the system. The Bush Administration convinced me that the war was pointless. I remember the day they finally had to admit that there were not WMDs in Iraq. By the way, Congress agrees with this finding in a 2006 report regarding a post war analysis of pre-war intel. There are also several NIEs that indicate that Iraq became a major terrorist training ground during the occupation and that the danger to the US was greater than it was pre-9/11. IVAW national, to my knowledge, does not support counter recruiting. Individual chapters, unfortunately, are able to do what they want. This has been a major point of contention. I was not familiar with Befriend a recruiter until yesterday and do not agree with the tactic. I take full responsibility for joining the military. If I had known how my career would turn out, I would have gone to ROTC or college followed by OCS. But I would still serve. The VFW endorses the Iraq War and routinely sided with George Bush. I am still a member of that organization despite that difference. I do not agree with the methods and tactics of every IVAW member or Chapter. My chapter does not do counter recruiting. The culture of the military, in my experience,was such that you will only be trained to minimum requirements. The service does not generally respond well to innovation or encourage creativity. Others may have a different experience, but that is what I observed at four differnt commands over nearly nine years. I think people have a right to hear a counterpoint to the roses and pony stories the recruiters tell. COB6 thank you for your kind words about my work. If you are really interested in talking more about it email me. I also feel that I need to say that I do not expect… Read more »
Nice try, the Recruiting shit is directly off a link at the national website. Go to IVAW.org, you know, your website, and click the link on what to do. The first thing thereof is from the quote I used.
From the IVAW page:
Actions You Can Take
Befriend a Recruiter
Now, go and click on the link for befriend a recruiter and get back to me with how that doesn’t violate SAEDA and the laws I posted above.
Oh, and love your slam regarding the body armor issue. Now, you go put on Dragon Skin and hump around wearing that shit and let me know how you like the extra 20 lbs.
And as for the VFW, they get their positions via resolutions passed by their membership. They also support Obama on a ton of issues, it is all what the resolutions say. So, while I respect that you maintained your membership, you should stop spreading the myth that the national just sides with the GOP. The membership dictates the positions, not the organization stating positions that members should hold.
John it was more than complaints they were substantiated. It was also proved that members of congress and the CO knew about it before the story broke and did nothing. I notice you said nothing about the VA. I assume we can agree on that.
TSO I would have gladly taken Dragon Skin over the cordura shell I wore in Iraq.
Jonn wrote: See, that’s where you’re wrong. You write a thousand paragraph essay, TSO and I knock down every bit of what you say except a few things, and those few things happen to be what you finally want to discuss. Where have I seen that before? Oh, yeah…from nearly every blowhard, pseudo-intellectual who comments here.
Yeah, VA has problems, but no different than any other hospital system – and you don’t even know what problems the VA has because you didn’t clarify what you’re talking about.
And Walter Reed was still about ONE BUILDING used for transient barracks – not health care. And it doesn’t matter who knew nor for how long – it still wasn’t health care. Since I’ve been in VA and Walter Reed for surgery, I guess I’d know about the quality of the facilities.
Like I said, you’re spitting out code words that would set the IVAW bobbleheads to nodding, it won’t work here.
Jonn doesn’t go to the VA, since he is retired. I go to the VA, and I also look at the satisfaction rankings from those who go. And they very favorably compare to those who go to regular hospitals, and I would be happy to share that info with you. I love my VA doctor. Sometimes it is a pain in the ass getting an Appointment, but it is outside at times too. So, I think it is safe to assume that we also disagree on that count.
As for the armor, that makes one of us. As an infantryman, I found it somewhat important to be able to move.
I note you skipped my point about it being linked on your website. Not to worry though, I will point out other things on your website that violate the law in the near future, and you can ignore those too.
OK, I stand corrected, Jonn has gone to the VA.
TSO as I said in my previous post, it was news to me. I rarely go to the website and care little for what national is doing. My local chapter focuses on veteran outreach and local events. We don’t do counter recruiting, truth in recruiting or befriending recruiters.
As for the VA the majority of the problems are in access. Most of my experience is anecdotal, but when I am hearing the same things from all ends of the spectrum, I have to say I think that my experience is the norm in my area.
When you have troops with open wounds living in squalid conditions it is a healthcare issue and it goes to care of the wounded.
Jonn wrote: “Open wounds”, “squalid”? Have a tendency for hyperbole do we? It was out-patient transient barracks – there were no “open wounds”. They weren’t living in “squalid conditions” by anyone’s measure – well anyone who is rational and doesn’t have an agenda.
You forgot to mention the non-English-speaking mother who complained to the Washington Post that she couldn’t find a Spanish interpreter to get her some help finding her way around DC – even though her son was in my Panamanian wife’s ward and my wife had helped her get everything she needed including taking her to the store to buy things she needed in our car when my wife was off-duty.
Access to VA facilities have improved three-fold in the last eight years. Is it perfect? No, it’s government – the same government that we want to manage our national health care. As far as the body armor issue goes, if you’re implying that Army leadership doesn’t care about casualties, you’re a naive idiot. Notice I said “If”.
TSO as for the armor issue, you missed the point of the article. I was not advocating for Dragon Skinz. I saying that in the past, the army had responded with unprofessional ridiculed directed at military families who only wanted their servicemembers to be safe.
In the three years that the Bake Sales for Body Armor Program was running, we never provided dragon skinz, dispite numerous requests. I believe that General Cuklo and General Brown were being upfront and honest about what they knew at that time. Unfortunately, that had not been our experience up to that point.
HM2(FMF/SW)Ret,
I was there during the Walter Reed “fiasco”. You’re talking out your ass using talking points you’ve swallowed whole.
HM2(FMF/SW)Ret,
“TSO as for the armor issue, you missed the point of the article. I was not advocating for Dragon Skinz. I saying that in the past, the army had responded with unprofessional ridiculed directed at military families who only wanted their servicemembers to be safe.”
BS, I know of one clown (Tim Kahlor) that did it just to have a club to bash the war.
The guy is a liar. I know that for a fact.
He’s MFSO and MFSO is one of the sponsors of the weekly protests at Walter Reed Army Medical Center every Friday night. He looked me in the eye and lied. Said that he had no connection to the protests when he IS a MFSO big shot.
He also said that he was in DC to check up on some friends of his son’s in WRAMC. BS, he was in DC to do Congressional visits for MFSO.
Typical left wing loon. If I came to DC to check on my kid’s friends at Reed, the last thing I’d be doing is screwing around with Code Pink and MFSO. I’d be inside doing what I came to do.
I don’t know Tim Kahlor and he was not associated with the Bake Sales for Body Armor Campaign.
Moreover, I don’t see how this is relevant.
Bldg 18 was a former motel rented to house single troops that overflowed what was then available inside the fence at Reed. I used to drop stuff off (food) for the day room all the time. I saw no evidence of “squalid” conditions. I saw no evidence of rats, mice or insects. I have even seen what the inside of a room looked like. No worse than a graduate dorm. A two man suite. The halls were a bit dim and I hate shag carpet, but squalid it wasn’t. Out of about 75 rooms, an inspection the day after closed just 2. A few failed but were not closed, the vast majority passed. One room had on hole in the bathroom ceiling where the tub above overflowed. It also had peeling wallpaper with mold in the living room. But the guy never put in a work order because if brought up to standard he’d get a roomie. The other room had holes in the walls. Rob, the occupant, put them there as had already been billed for that. There were sanitary problems with his room, but consider this, he’s finish his meal and leave it anywhere, including the floor. That’s not WRAMC’s fault. I knew the SGT in his medical hold company and explained that bewteen the kid wearing Dad’s stars and not being subject to punishment while in Medical Hold, Rod was running amuck. The other problem was how to take care of those who can’t take care of themselves. The CG had been working on that and had made progress. Fast enough? Certianly not in the wake of the Washington Post smear. So he took it in the neck. Important to note that prorities after the story got bumped up. Had there been no story that would not have been true. And by the way, the Post had to pull the trigger before they were finished. The funding needed was going to become available, so it was publish or your smear perished. That Wednesday or Thurday, just dyas after, the patients walked about a mile and ahalf in… Read more »
HM2(FMF/SW)Ret
[Moreover, I don’t see how this is relevant]
You said people’s motives regarding Dragonskin were pure. That’s BS. Tim Kahor doesn’t have clean hands.
Your “Bakes Sales” was an anti-war stunt too. Anyone who cares about the troops doesn’t need a freakin’ donut to close the deal and contribute to the troops.
You’re just looking for that folksy backdrop to your anti-war smears that the troops were not properly supported.
HM2(FMF/SW)Ret
[I was referring to the Walter Reed fiasco as well as the VA. I would never blame the guys on the line for the failing of the system.]
Get your bullshit straight. There are a fair number of Soldiers running the things that the Washington Post wrote about. One of the solutions was to get more Soldiers, more senior Soldiers to perform those duties.
So yes, if you call Walter Reed a fiasco, you are blaming the guys on the line at Reed.
But again, I have more respect for them than I’ll ever have for you.
Raoul:
Let me try this again: I DO NOT KNOW TIM KAHLOR AND HE WAS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE BAKES SALES FOR BODY ARMOR CAMPAIGN.
Whatever Mr. Kahlor, whoever he is, did or thought about Dragon Skinz is on him not me and not Bakes Sales for Body Armor.
I did not say people’s motives regarding the Dragon Skinz issue were pure. I said that the article I wrote highlighted the Army’s less than transparent method of dealing with the body armor problem.
We never provided Dragon Sinz nor did we endorce Dragon Skinz as a superior product. (I don’t think it is. I suspect that it has promise, but isn’t quite there yet practically.)
We only provided armor that met DoD specs or additional pieces requested by the soldiers/marines themselves. The campaign was non-partisan and was a great opportunity for individuals and groups who ordinarily wouldn’t agree on anything to come together for a common cause. It was beautiful and I am glad that the issue has been resolved.
HM2(FMF/SW)Ret
Pay attention or take notes, you causing the class to fall behind.
“I saying that in the past, the army had responded with unprofessional ridiculed directed at military families who only wanted their servicemembers to be safe.”
There are “military families” playing politics regarding body armor. Kahlor is an example.
YOU are an example.
Your BS is just a riff on the old hippe bullshit of “Imagine if the schools could have all the money they need and the Air Force has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomnber.”
Like I said, nobody who really supports the troops needs to be bribed with a donut to support the troops. You ask and either they’ll give or they don’t because either they care or they don’t.
You can go blow smoke up someone else’s ass.
I will not go into fundraising theory or explain that there are a variety of other organizations that sell things to raise money for troops. (Yellow ribbons before deployment mean anything to you?)
In any event, we raised over $35,000 that we used to send side/delt armor and drop leg platforms to Iraq and Afghanistan. About a third of it came from sales of some sort and a lot more came from donations on the website. Communities around the country found themselves empowered to do something for the troops. I thought it was beautiful. If you don’t like the method, fine. I’m a results guy myself.
In any event, I’d rather be criticized for doing something than to have done nothing when it mattered.
You can have all of the contempt you wish for me. I have nothing but respect for you.
I almost forgot: MFSO and IVAW both refused to support the project or to relay its existence to their prospective members.
No national membership organization offered any real support.
Oh plueeze, a bake sale for body armor is something Code Pink does. It mocks the military as unable to provide for its’ members.
[I almost forgot: MFSO and IVAW both refused to support the project or to relay its existence to their prospective members.]
If you offered to supply body armor to Al-Qaeda they would have.
Raoul:
I recognize that we don’t agree on much and if I said black you would likely insist on white solely by virtue of my suggestion. However, I was one of two co-founders of Bake Sales for Body Armor. I wrote all of the correspondence with potential co-sponsors. Code Pink was not only not involved, they were not invited.
The purpose of Bake Sales for Body Armor was not to “mock the military as unable to provide for its'[sic] members,” but rather to provide a stop gap measure for soldiers who requested assistance. It was never intended to run as long as it did. However, soldiers themselves began requesting drop leg armor as protection against IEDs. We continued providing these pieces until the fall of 2008.
I say again, no national membership organization, including cult pink, endorsed the project.
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