WhiskeyWarrior556- Victim of Red Flag Law
Putnam County armored SWAT vehicle at scene of standoff, Putnam Drive, Mahopac, NY at 8:30 p.m.
Poetrooper sends us this chilling saga of the ramifications of Red Flag Laws, and how a phone call can turn one’s life upside down.
WhiskeyWarrior556 falls victim to New York’s red flag laws
By Taylor Day
On Friday, police showed up to a young man’s workplace and tried to arrest him over social media posts reported to them by an old army buddy of the 28-year-old Afghanistan veteran. This man, known as Alex and popular on Instagram under the handle of WhiskeyWarrior556, slipped out of the back door, hurried home to check on his family where he found out police had already forced themselves into his home and confiscated his legal firearms after threatening his wife with calling child protective services to remove her newborn child. Alex then barricaded himself inside his own attic, unarmed. Law enforcement officers followed him, blocked off the road to all traffic and a seven-hour standoff began.
When it was over, the Putnam County Sheriffs, SWAT team and local police, armed with their own automatic rifles with 30 round magazines, arrested Alex for possessing a “high capacity magazine” for his legal AR-15. In New York, “high capacity magazines” are defined as any magazine that can hold more than seven rounds. Although a plastic box that holds 30 cartridges at one time are standard for this type of firearm, some lawmakers somewhere else believed they knew better and forced that decision upon this American war veteran.
Alex updated his followers on Instagram with video and commentary, also posting screenshots of his SMS conversation with police negotiators. Friends who were in contact with him also shared their conversations via social media. Alex told one friend that the man who called in the red flag law, lied to police by telling them that Alex suffered from PTSD. Putnam County Sheriffs reiterated this, claiming that this was a mental health issue, although offered no evidence of such an allegation. A statement from Police Chief Michael Cazzari of local Carmel Police made this statement:
“This is a person in crisis, having mental illness, having issues and he didn’t need the people on social media telling him that his rights are being violated. He needed help. Medical help.”
Because armored vehicles and total barricades are needed when someone just needs “medical help.” Perhaps the police understood that illegally confiscating someone’s property might lead to violence.
WhiskeyWarrior556 finally gave in when police threatened once again to take his infant daughter from his and his wife’s custody and according to police, he was peacefully detained. Though charged with owning the “high capacity magazine,” no charges have been filed as a result of the standoff.
What transpired on Saturday was exactly what advocates of red flag laws have asked for. A militarized police force, ignoring due process completely, confiscated the property and the civil rights of a U.S. citizen because of nothing more than the opinion of an associate.
If the current legal landscape allows for citizens to have their Second Amendment rights stripped from them without any legal opportunity to dissent, what are the next rights to be taken? After all, our rights to speech or religion, or even due process itself, have no obligation to be respected by the government without the right to bear arms.
Every gun law, including the ones you agree with, is an infringement on our constitutional rights.
Author Note: There is currently a donation site set up through the non-profit Firearm Policy Foundation at www.defendwhiskey.com to help Alex with legal aid. You can follow Taylor Day on Twitter and Facebook.
The entire article may be viewed here: American Thinker
Thanks, Poe.
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AW1
Category: Guest Link, Gun Grabbing Fascists, Legal, Second Amendment, The Constitution
We are all WhiskeyWarrior556.
We are all stupid and say stupid shit on the interwebz and unsocial media?
Oh wait….
I don’t know this guy, but knowing, possessing, and creating content about firearms is not “stupid” or saying “stupid shit”.
On the other hand, lying and taking one’s constitutional rights by force is “saying stupid shit” and “stupid”.
It is likely that this will go far beyond firearms very soon.
Imagine being raided by SWAT because you have…GASP!…a Bible. Or a set of classic literature.
Fahrenheit 451 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
Where I see fault here was his decision to evade at the work place and then to actively resist at his home.
It is a decision that cannot lead to any good outcomes.
It is completely possible for all parties in this case to be shitheads.
Of course, that will never justify the police action here.
Given some of the “Molon Labe” comments tossed around by folks like popcorn in a movie theater, this could have ended very, very badly.
If this sort of raid becomes a habit, it very much will start ending badly.
That raid was a harbinger of raids to come. If they do not get the everloving shit sued out of them, the folks who want us disarmed will see it as a template.
This madness needs to stop. It -cannot- end well. This is -not- the way to address it.
I greatly appreciate the man’s restraint. I very much hope it was appropriate. I am horrified at the prospect of such restraint being seen, in hindsight, as wrong.
There -has- to be a better way to address mental health concerns, one that observes due process and observes constitutional rights.
-has- to be.
Concur completely. Evading and hiding was incredibly stupid. This whole incident was a growing snowball of bad decisions by everyone involved.
When dealing with a mental health crisis, it is essential to ensure that no more than one involved person is making poor choices.
Or, kick the bull in the balls and see what happens.
Some people just won’t think.
Sure, saying ‘stupid shit’ should totally get your personal property seized./s
Our fellow citizen had many pf his Constitutionally protected rights violated for what exactly? This kind of overreaction by LEOs is uncalled for, especially on a Vet.
Now just so I don’t get accused —because if you ain’t licking boot, you’re a monster— I fully support ANY citizen, uniformed or non, that comports and shows deference to the Guiding Principles set forth by Our Founding.
Everyone else, and everything else, can fuck right the fuck off.
If saying stupid shit was a crime, you’d have been thrown under the prison a long time ago.
You are and you do. I don’t know about this Whiskeywarrior guy.
It’s NY so the Stasi PD response shouldn’t be a surprise. Had it happened in Putnam County FL this might be worth discussing.
“This is a person in crisis, having mental illness, having issues and he didn’t need the people on social media telling him that his rights are being violated. He needed help. Medical help.”
This statement along with calling those who supported him domestic terrorists are an attempt to minimize the claims of citizens that this was an infringement and nothing more.
I will wait and see this case play out fully through the court system before passing a final opinion as I don’t know Mr. Alexander Booth nor do I know his specific situation.
I am immediately suspicious of the LEOs involved however as the story coming from their public affairs department appear to have changed several times over the course of the weekend. That could be as updates came in clarifying things, or it could be something less honest.
It’s going to get a bit wilder before it gets calmer I think.
Soon, Democrat politicians will declare every opponent to be “in crisis” and disarmed/detained for “public safety”… watch. (Leftists gonna leftist.)
“What transpired on Saturday was exactly what advocates of red flag laws have asked for”.
And exactly what we all said would happen. When will charges be filed against the asshat that made the original complaint? Who was the genius in the Sheriff’s department that thought this was a good approach? That’s how you get incidents such as this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Guerena_shooting
I need to see a DD 214….
Have at it.
Military Records
Nah. Too much work.
Better to talk shit in the interwebz and call people names than to do all the hard work.
I’m sure the ninjas will be getting those…or have you missed the weekly posts where that happens?
Your trolling rating = ZERO
There is just to much information missing to be able to logically make a decision on this issue – too many unanswered questions in my mind. Was the actions from the local law right – doubtful. But there have been articles posted from people that know him mentioning a restraining order, divorce, etc that haven’t been answered fully. The one thing that I really question was all the people that went to the scene – as much as support is a great thing, I’m afraid that it can be used against us if the facts of this come out to show that he was less than honest in his posts about what was really transpiring. The whole mess is just too new and too vague at this time.
I agree with that.
However…there are well established legal procedures for dealing with any issues that may require intervention that never involved SWAT or lying to the public.
I have to say that the habit of lying to the public by government officials is becoming SOP lately. Citizens are well advised to believe nothing the “official channels” tell us.
Red Flag laws are just legalized SWATing.
“This is a person in crisis, having mental illness, having issues…”
Wasn’t this the EXACT approach that the Soviets used and the Chinese still use to “cure” those who don’t agree with those in power?
Asking for a friend…
Yes…..yes it was.
Yes…..yes it IS.
There. Fixed it for ya. Yer welcome.
Let’s not forget that the Government of North Korea still “reeducates” people in concentration camps as well.
and their immediate families.
Yes indeed!
Yes, anyone not liking the “workers’ paradise” was obviously ill and needing treatment, of course… Chicoms still do that.
He hade our mountain warfare bigrade patch one.
Sounds like re-education and rehabilitation are in the future. I understand the Chinese and Vietnamese have some expertise in those fields.
I am a big believer in cops but I think there should be a level playing field. They should not be armed more heavily than we are allowed to be, just as any politician on record for gun control should be allowed no armed bodyguards or security. As someone described the other day, maybe API? that is probably a polyanna-ish wish.
This looks like a swatting. He is lucky he didn’t end up in the morgue. Having a standoff with cops frequently ends with that result.
Is there really any difference between “red flag” and swatting? Actually, I think calling a “red flag” on someone is safer for the informer because the authorities actively help you to remain anonymous whereas if you “swat” somebody the authorities try to find and prosecute you. Both will result in severe inconvenience and property damage/loss, if not death.
“Is there really any difference between “red flag” and swatting?”
I don’t see any myself right now, IMHO these “Red Flag” Laws are just what Bernathian liberals want for more control over the populace via fear, just like in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, China,…
And unfortunately, this is how some people end up deciding that they cannot trust cops or other people for that matter (forget the government, that’s a no brainer). If we are going to have these red flag laws, there needs to be more screws put into them so they are limited in their scope and put penalties in place for abusing them especially if the person ends up dying though I would prefer to just throw them out myself because of bs like this.
It is horrifying that many on death row have been freed after new evidence proved their innocence, and those folks were convicted after a trial, appeals, and a lot of people looking over the evidence. I for one wonder how many innocents were executed unjustly.
“Red flag” operations, however, require only that a person “close to” the victim file an anonymous (to everyone but the police) complaint. The end result of both processes, however, can result in the death death of an innocent person.
Yup, just like “muh training kicked-in” when somebody got hurt by mistake or for a dumb reason.
The story is a bad-craziness hairball.
How about let’s take Alex Booth, the police chief, the wife, the guy who drove the SWAT-mobile, the deputy who allegedly heard “a shot” and throw them all in jail for a time-out. The bailiff should also be instructed to whack the pee-pee of the guy who ratted out Booth in the first place…
When I sent this to Ed, it was with a comment that this should prove to be an eye opener for those here at TAH who don’t believe law enforcement, many of whom are fellow veterans, will deploy overwhelming force (armored vehicle–really?) against an American veteran to confiscate his firearms.
Even if there was a restraining order, so what? Ol’ Poe’s been blessed to never have had to undergo a divorce, but I’ve witnessed a few and know that many untrue charges get levied by and against both sides. My opinion is that many wives get restraining orders to prevent their spouses from having any contact and communication with the children, thus ensuring the children hear only mommy’s side of the issue and will opt to remain with her.
Those males here who have been through the process probably will agree that the system is intrinsically unfair and this restraining order business is another example of that inherent bias. Are there situations where restraining orders are called for? You bet there are, but I’d wager far more RO’s are sought by angry wives for the reason I cited.
Anyone doubting that law enforcement won’t show up in full militaria to kill anyone the government designates an undesirable has no idea how government para military forces operate and think.
We killed a woman with a child at Ruby Ridge, we killed a shit ton at Waco, we bombed and burned a city block in the city of brotherly love.
The police in this country have a long history of doing exactly what they’re fucking told to do regardless of who gets killed on the civilian side of things. The fact they’ve got that history seems lost on most of our fellow Americans.
Cops like government are a necessary evil, but make no mistake they are an evil in any society simply because they can be manipulated into performing society’s dirty business on behalf of the government.
I won’t invoke Godwin’s law, but historically speaking the rest of the world and its law enforcement arms don’t have a very good track record and respecting the personal freedoms of the public either.
“we bombed and burned a city block in the city of brotherly love”
I’m not sure what you’re referencing (other than Philadelphia) and it’s too vague for my Google Fu. Clarification?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing
Thanks for putting me some knowledge. I’d never heard of the incident, but from what I’ve heard about Philadelphia, “The City That Bombed Itself” sounds accurate. Of course, my mother was born in Camden, so I might be biased.
” those here at TAH who don’t believe law enforcement, many of whom are fellow veterans, will deploy overwhelming force (armored vehicle–really?) against an American veteran to confiscate his firearms.”
A lot of Germans felt the same in the 1930s. I will bet the Bonus Army also felt the same in 1932. I have seen, read, and heard enough over the last half century or so to believe that it is not at all difficult to get military or police to do it.
So since he’s a self described “combat vet” with alleged PTSD you all automatically make the cops the bad guys. You can believe what you want, but according to the Sheriff’s department they were there to investigate a domestic violence complaint. NO weapons or ammunition feeding devices were seized nor was he charged with any weapons related offenses. He was arrested for a domestic violence warrant issued by a judge along with some other charges. But the cops are the bad guys. There was NOTHING about red flag laws involved. I love how keyboard warriors are quick to jump on stuff like this and spout garbage. https://2acops.com/2019/11/24/whiskey_warrior_556-is-the-mike-brown-of-the-2a-community/?fbclid=IwAR2nKknnIroJaZzvEfsIXDmeCibfQX9AivpVtbwbWahUCNueWgw5IOLXNZo
Good grief. Did you hurt yourself jumping to that conclusion?
Not sure what comments you’ve been reading, but they must have been somewhere other that here. Meanwhile, it doesn’t make a bit of dif to me if this guy was veterinarian or an auto mechanic, old or young, my reaction would be the same: Somebody somewhere made a pretty good oopsie here and just may have overreacted just a tad.
The cops are the bad guys? Well, as a matter of fact, they certainly can be bad guys, but most of the negative comments were directed at the laws (confusing at best) and social/political pressures to enforce things which make little or no sense to anyone, including cops. More often than not, the cops can’t win no matter how they act or react. Most of us know that.
The choice to see garbage among a bunch of folks who have BTDT is yours to make. Doesn’t make you right, just exercising a right that you still have.
Well gee, RM3, are we to blame for piss-poor media reporting? And even in the article you linked debunking the media account, there are still questionable allegations such as the initial investigating officer supposedly hearing a shot coming from the residence, which we then hear nothing more about. Was that just a convenient untruth to justify calling in SWAT on this guy?
How about the inflammatory reference to the suspect “barricading” himself in his home? What did he do besides going back inside and close his garage door? Did he pile furniture against the doors and nail all the windows shut? If so, the police should report that but we both know he it isn’t likely he “barricaded” himself.
You are way off base when you label the “keyboard warriors” here as being anti-law enforcement. We are most assuredly not–several regulars here are LE–but we are just as assuredly opposed to the excessive use of military-style force in situations that could be resolved with far less drama. And as SFC D’s link up above shows, real tragedies and unnecessary loss of life do occur from over-zealous police reaction.
Overreaction to perceived emergencies in general seems to be the rule these days. I once counted a dozen emergency response vehicles surrounding an intersection, ostensibly to cover a minor fender-bender: four police jurisdictions, multiple unneeded fire trucks, ambulances and wreckers. I suspect most were there to boost call-out figures on a slow day for next year’s budget planning purposes. But then, ol’ Poe’s just a cynical taxpayer.
In summary, our legitimate concerns regarding weapons seizure grew out of that previously mentioned piss-poor reporting, which seems to be the standard these days. Don’t fault your fellow veterans for being misled. If that report had been true, their reactions would be entirely justified.
Poe,
I agree with almost all of you post (not that my 2cp means much, but here it is) , though I’d like to offer a bit of insight to this comment of yours
“I once counted a dozen emergency response vehicles surrounding an intersection, ostensibly to cover a minor fender-bender: four police jurisdictions, multiple unneeded fire trucks, ambulances and wreckers.”
While over-response to “pad the numbers” is very possible, a couple things that could contribute to such a response
1. If the crash happened in a border or “dual response” zone, you could have multiple police or fire apparatus respond. Often it is overkill, but it’s to ensure response to areas that might otherwise not get enough coverage.
2. Multiple calls / poor reporting of location. This can result in multiple agencies being dispatched by separate systems.. think city and county..
3. Multiple ambulances are often due to people insisting they be transported due to very minor injuries. In most locals, EMT’s / Paramedics cannot refuse to transport, no matter how ridiculous the complaint.
4. Wreckers might be due to damage making vehicles undriveable even though damage appeared minor, or due to the drivers being transported.
5. Lastly, due to inattention by distracted drivers, many cops / firefighters have been killed while working accident scenes, so in areas where they have had such tragedies, many jurisdictions send an additional engine whose sole responsibility is to block traffic / protect the scene as a physical barrier. This one could be done away with if people weren’t stupid, paid attention to what they were doing, and actually knew how to drive, but we know how that works out.
Sorry for the long post..
This should have been handled with far less drama. Why go out of your way to set a guy off? Especially if they guy is really cracked.
I cannot think of a better way to set of a paranoid or PTSD case than a high profile SWAT raid. Maybe faking a Martian invasion, but that might trigger giggles.
If someone is truly triggered, wouldn’t a “gentle way” warrant service be better? Keep that Iron Fist out of sight?
That was showboating. It was also very lucky it didn’t provoke something horrific. It was also insanely -stupid-.
Something about your response reminds me of the words of some of those anti-establishment types involved in another dust-up…
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
When the state is the problem I guess it’s safer to be a statist than not.
Any beverage of your choosing, on me.
Hear, hear.
1. It is blue New York state, so yes, the cops are jackbooted thugs.
2. Rarely does a reinforced platoon or so of cops dressed up like army rangers show up on a domestic violence complaint, even in the socialist part of the country.
3. Some inconvenient facts here are that they busted into the house, took all his weapons that they could find, and threatened to strip the kid from the mother’s arms if she didn’t properly kiss their asses. You need to drastically improve your comprehension skills. And the cops WILL lie to make themselves look good. Anyone expecting them to do the right thing versus following orders is delusional.
I actually watched this as it was happening. My son got the links from a cop friend as it went down.
Watch the videos. Booth is clearly in need of some help.
On top of that, virtually every local news organization and Booth’s own instagram posts contradict the narrative that this was a Red Flag persecution.
http://westchester.news12.com/story/41364769/police-man-wanted-in-domestic-incident-causes-7hour-standoff-in-carmel
According to the police, they originally responded to a domestic violence complaint, then thought they heard a gunshot. At that point they saw knucklehead, in full tactical gear, barricade himself.
After the standoff he was arrested based on a previous warrant for burglary, trespassing, aggravated harassment, and a few others related to previous incidents. No weapons or magazines were seized.
I know most of you are simply going to say that the cops are lying, and the news is fake. Of course you will believe what you want, but tying our second amendment rights to cases like this are not helping the cause.
Watch his live updates:
Local story for me. The whole incident was the result of this dipshit breaking into his ex’s apartment, allegedly intox where she had moved after splitting from him getting a order of protection from him after alleged domestic violence in September and had the police already removed his firearms. Felony arrest warrant issued cops went to serve and he wouldn’t comply, he goes back into his abode cops hear noises and the circus starts, for about six hours.
While this was going on he is posting online with his “story” causing a couple people to stop by and yell at the cops and the police department’s phone to be swamped by others calling, crashing the phone system. Because if its on the internet it must be true. This is where the original stories on line came from.
Did not know there were videos. From the video he is a few fries short of a happy meal.
Well, you have convinced me. Couldn’t even finish the second video. Just too weird, “fellow veteran” or not.
Nope, you’re wrong, shocking as that may seem, but we’re not going to say the cops are lying. However a bit of police duplicity may be suspected in that business that the initial officer on the scene “thought” he heard a shot, when the house subsequently yielded no arms. And that begs another question: if this guy was considered such a deadly threat, why was a single officer sent out initially to apprehend him on the domestic violence charge?
And as the video shows, this fool was hanging out the window with his phone in full view of the police, not exactly a threatening posture. However his wearing of tactical gear could signal a willingness to fight so points go to the police in that regard.
Overall, both the obviously troubled young man and the police should be thankful this situation was resolved without loss of life. And for that, kudos to the police. As for our jumping to unwarranted conclusions after being misled by fake news, I do not think you are one who should be pointing that particular finger, Steeley.
This is upstate NY, small town not the city. Maybe he wasn’t considered a deadly threat until he was at the door with a tactical vest with the magazine pockets filled (with empty) magazines. Since cops don’t have x-ray vision it is a mute point.
A non threatening posture is great until it becomes threat can change in seconds. As for hearing a possible shot inside a house when your outside been there done that, heard things that sounded like shots that were not and herd things that did not that were. Since they want to go home they can treat all as possible.
I don’t concern myself with what some turd is wearing. I concern myself with what he has in his HANDS.
When I said ‘most of you’, clearly I didn’t mean The Great Poe.
That said, a quick review of the comments here shows that many (if not most) do believe this was a Red Flag.
Why you feel the need to level an unwarranted personal slight is beyond me, but I will take it in the spirit of healthy debate.
Personal slight? That’s rich coming from an arrogant know-it-all who so clearly disdains the others who comment here, “The Great Poe” included, informing us that you, with your superior intellect are going to educate us if we will but give you sufficient time? BTW, when are you finally going to get around to addressing us as deplorables? You know you want to–you really, really want to–it’s in your superior DNA.
By the way, I’ve been retired twenty years and have all the time in the world for this kinda crap, but aren’t you supposed to be working for us ignorant taxpayers? I don’t know what Department of the Army is paying you to do but I’ll give good odds it’s not to frequent TAH and “educate” the rabble.
Wow.
Jeez Poe, I didn’t realize I had cut so deep. I’ll get a sympathy card in the mail right away, just as soon as you fill out your hurt feelings report.
I guess all those memes about boomers being sensitive are accurate. As a Gen-Xer I thought it was a Gen Z joke.
I don’t post on government time, so stop worrying about your hard earned tax dollars. You don’t know what my status is- what shift I work or even what time zone I’m in. For all you know I’m on leave or sitting up with a sick relative.
I do try to educate, though- you are spot on with that. There is so much work to do here…
It reminds me of words of a great soldier-scholar-poet (see if you can figure out who. It would be a simple Google search, but I have a feeling you haven’t figured out how to switch over from Bing)
If you waste your time a talking
To the people who don’t listen
To the things that you are saying
Who do you thinks gonna hear?
And if you should die explaining how
The things that they complain about
Are things they could be changing
Who do you thinks gonna care?
There were other lonely singers
In a world turned deaf and blind
Who were crucified for what they tried to show
And their voices have been scattered by the swirling winds of time
‘Cause the truth remains that no one wants to know
The words of a favorite singer/songwriter (and actor), also a Vietnam Vet, who flew Hueys in ‘Nam. Here’s a hint for those who haven’t figured it out yet: “Busted flat in Baton Rouge…”
Nope, he didn’t make it to RVN; he was in West Germany.
But he WAS Ranger qualified.
Just looked it up on Wikipedia, and you’re correct; he flew Army helicopters, but not in RVN.
Well now if that don’t just beat the devil, ol’ Steeley quoting Kristofferson to someone who was attending Kris’s concerts when young Steely was likely still in diapers or maybe even still swinging in a some good ol’ boy’s scrotum.
Miz Poe and I went to a concert in San Antonio before he became a star. Most of the seats were empty. Kristofferson surveyed the largely empty auditorium and said, “Well, hell, why don’t y’all just move on down to the front.” Just out of college, we were back in the cheap seats and ended up on the second row from the stage.
During the first few numbers, some drunk chick kept yelling, “Sing ‘Me and Bobby McGee’!” Kris finally paused, leveled a long, steady look her direction, and in that deep gravelly voice said, “Lady, this ain’t no fuckin’ juke box up here.”
After a moment of stunned silence, it brought down the house. Of course, that was in the days before entertainers talked like street thugs. First time I’d ever heard that word from a concert stage.
As to beating the devil, you might not waste your time talking, Steeley, if you lightened up on the know-it-all, gonna-teach-you-ignoramuses something attitude. With your military background, you ought to know that’s an approach that never works unless you exercise total control, which is a laughable concept for anyone on this forum. Well, except Ed.
As you can see, when you drop that condescension and just converse, your contributions are well received–you’re even thanked. But how you play it is your call.
And puhleeze drop the phony bit about not doing at least some of this while you’re at work. Sitting with a sick friend? Where, hanging between your legs?
I saw Kristofferson live as well. I was bit older than you were when you saw him, and of course Kris was much older, but it was just him and his guitar (and a harmonica) and it was awesome. Have you seen the Drunk History episode on him and the story of ‘Sunday Morning Coming Down’? Well worth looking up.
We have so much in common; it’s a shame we just can’t get along. If I didn’t know you were committed to honest and forthright debate in the quest for truth I would think you had some sort of personal vendetta against me.
Again, you know absolutely nothing about me except what I have decided to share with you, and my work place and hours are not among those facts. To use another pop culture reference, you know nothing, Jon Snow.
Steeley, you blew in here sneering at TAH’ers of decade-long standing as a bunch of unsophisticated know-nothings, so perhaps a bit of steeley self-reflection is in order.
For your information, among the regulars here are many with advanced degrees in law, medicine, engineering and so on. We’re not quite the unsophisticated rednecks you assume simply because most of us hew to the right side of the political spectrum. You say you’re not a liberal but that is a most assuredly a frequently employed liberal attitude, one that we get a surfeit of in the media so we don’t put up with it here.
I told you once before, I’m willing to get along, but I have a very low threshold for smarmy condescension, liberal or otherwise.
Lars is an excellent example–been around a long time and is obviously a man of some intelligence. Yet he simply can’t engage without trying to show he’s the smartest guy on this forum, which is far from reality. So after all these years, he’s still treated with contempt and ridicule, which he seems to thrive on.
Your initial posts here closely resembled the Lars model which is why you got some flak. That you got more of it from me is not because I’m the smartest guy here or the most eloquent, but more likely because I like the mental fencing and I have time to do it while the true intellects here probably have more productive ways to spend their time.
As to your non sequitur claim that this is a personal vendetta, if I know nothing of you personally, as you state, how can I possibly wage a personal vendetta?
I say again, it’s your call. You want to get along? Then make your arguments without talking down to us. You think you can teach us something? Fine, just give it your best shot without constantly reminding us that you are doing so. This may be a military site, but is not a military classroom.
You might be pleasantly surprised at the response you’d get here to well-reasoned arguments.
I forgot to include that you appear to possess research tools and skills than many of us old dinosaurs don’t. Put them to work for us–not against.
Poe, I invite you to go back and review my posts. You will find that I am only smarmy in response to insults and other ad hominem attacks. I use smarm(?) (I was going for sarcasm) because I don’t like to respond to insults with insults. It’s kind of pointless and childish.
In fact, what you will find is that I typically ignore insults altogether, responding only when the insults become the focus of discussion.
I will call people on outright falsehoods or when they are clearly posing as someone they are not.
Finally, while I respect the service of everyone present, I do not accept it in place of actual factual, logical argument.
Okay, we need to call an end to this discussion but first, I feel I must, in your own words, “educate” you.
From Poe’s World Dictionary:
Smarm, a fetid, off-putting substance that forms in the eyes and ears of those being talked down to by someone in no demonstrated position to do so.
Poe out.
And you still can hear me singin’ to the people who don’t listen,
To the things that I am sayin’, prayin’ someone’s gonna hear.
And I guess I’ll die explaining how the things that they complain about,
Are things they could be changin’, hopin’ someone’s gonna care.
I was born a lonely singer, and I’m bound to die the same,
But I’ve got to feed the hunger in my soul.
And if I never have a nickel, I won’t ever die ashamed.
‘Cos I don’t believe that no-one wants to know.
(until I get banned)
“the initial officer on the scene “thought” he heard a shot, when the house subsequently yielded no arms”
As you well know, a lot of things can sound like a gunshot. Cops are going to err on the side of caution. If you heard what you thought was a gunshot in a house, would you call in the cavalry?
“And that begs another question: if this guy was considered such a deadly threat, why was a single officer sent out initially to apprehend him on the domestic violence charge?”
It’s more likely than not that he wasn’t the only officer responding. He was probably the first one there. SOP is for multiple cops to serve such warrants, but when everyone drives themselves, you get there at different times. First on scene does a tactical approach and maintains observation. Once everyone gets there, then there’s an attempt at contact to serve the warrant.
This WhiskeyWarrior556 escalated things. He could have ended it at any time. He had at least one felony warrant and multiple misdemeanor warrants. Instead, he (and others online) preferred to whip everyone into a frenzy that this was big government coming to take down Mr Freedom.
Thanks, Mason, for making things clearer. I’m not trying to be anti-cop as I’m not now nor have I ever been. However, I also believe that there are many in law enforcement who would gladly confiscate firearms from ordinary citizens if for no other reason than to make their own jobs safer. Worse, I think there are far more officers who would do it solely because it was ordered by some higher authority.
Put simply, like tens of millions of my fellow Americans, I’ll continue to respect and support law enforcement as long as law enforcement respects and supports my constitutional rights.
This whole thing is a ball of misinformation that has people jumping to conclusions on all sides.
For some reason this one tugged at people’s heartstrings and went viral almost immediately. One thing I’ve learned on countless standoffs, they’re usually over something stupid. The really violent people like to run or fight it out.
I will agree though that a lot of cops would probably enforce incremental encroachments into rights. They’ve got families that need to eat and a place to live. If there was some drastic, immediate encroachment, like Beto’s enforced confiscation, cops would protest and refuse to do it.
Bullshit. A cop lie for “we are busting into your house by force to illegally achieve our desired aims by other means.” It goes well with “I smelled marijuana emanating from the area of the suspect.” And other such cop lies.
You think cops want to bust into random citizens’ houses based on lies?
That’s a great way to get fired and (because qualified immunity wouldn’t apply) get sued out of existence.
Believe me. The last thing a cop wants to do is sit on some perimeter for seven hours.
” the initial officer on the scene “thought” he heard a shot,”
Many things sound like a shot, including the sound of a shot glass as it is slammed on the bar after being drained. (Ask me how I know).
I have mistaken non-shots for shots on several occasions, the most memorable of which was way back during my first attempt at college. A half dozen or so of us vets were sitting at a table in the cafeteria telling tales of derring-do and what not when someone came in operating a set(?) of “clackers”. Instantly, without a word being spoken, all but one of us were underneath the table wondering where the f$%^* our weapons were. The last guy was just sitting there with a strange look on his face thinking to himself “WTF?”. He looked under the table and asked what was going on.
We looked at each other sheepishly, laughed a bit , and got out from under the table as we realized that what we had heard was those %^*(^$ “clackers”.
Those of us under the table were all Vietnam vets, including one SEAL, a couple of 11X, a Huey pilot, and one or two others I can’t remember. The guy who didn’t hit the deck had been a Navy Quartermaster who served in the Med.
The problem is not someone hearing what they think is a shot, it’s what is done afterwards with that information. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. Even if it was, who fired it and where did they fire it from?
In spite of what policemen are evidently taught these days most of the US is NOT a combat zone, and most of us citizens are not out to shoot them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLHftISLNHE
This video is but a pale imitation of what a large and well used set of clackers sound like. There is a definite similarity to a 7.62 round passing close aboard.
There may or may not have been a very similar incident in Tombstone AZ shortly after after a few of us got back from Afghanistan in 2002. 4 grown men, under a table in the Crystal Palace, beers in hand.
We forgot about the hourly “shootout” in the street.
Beers in hand–good to see you maintained your priorities…
The lighter side of PTSD, I guess. I still laugh when I remember it. Still have a bit of that reflex, although I can’t get under the table as quickly as I did back then, and I definitely can’t get back up as quickly. I do not laugh anymore at those “I’ve fallen and I can’t get up!” commercials.
If the cops weren’t such regular liars perhaps we’d be more prone to believe them…nothing more fucked up than reading another we investigated ourselves and found no evidence of wrongdoing.
As I said in my previous comment I don’t know this guy and it might be a shit case, but thinking the cops are liars is based on a reasonable set of historical data points indicating where ever there is a possibility of officials lying to post the narrative that suits them it’s been the case far more often than not.
Cops lie every day, they lie right to your face when they tell you they just want to help you or get to the bottom of something.
You know they’re full of shit because the first thing cops do when they get in trouble is lawyer up because they know for a fact that talking to the other cops in no way helps them personally.
There’s a reason people don’t trust the police, it’s largely based on experience.
Am not on face book, never twittered, never tweezered, never wheezered and never got married.
Knucklehead appears to be wearing the “fear the deer” patch of the Vermont Army National Guard. I served with two officers from the VTARNG in AFG a decade ago. They got lots of pure maple syrup mailed to them and it really improved the taste of our food. Delicious stuff. One 82nd ABN DIV officer loved the syrup so much he said it was like an addiction – similar to a junkie on crack.
George Washington thought about our liquid gold as a way to bypass the British sugar tax’s. I suggest it on the pancakes at P&H truck stop.
One of the few actual Mountain Units in the Army.
One time in Iraq I saw a bunch of Soldiers with a First Army patch with a Mountain tab. I was with a guy who was authorized the President’s Hundred, Special Forces, Ranger, and of course (because we were in Group) the Airborne Tab, making him a rare quadruple tabbed. He was of course intrigued, and we asked.
Turns out they were from New Hampshire and were one of the few actual mountain units in the Army by training and equipment. They were wearing the First Army patch because they were a provisional unit made up of dudes from Connecticut, VT, and NH.
They were all authorized permanent wear of the Rams Head device.
First Army patch with a mountain tab? I don’t believe that the mountain tab is authorized for wear like that. It’s not a permanent tab like Ranger, Sapper, Special Forces, or President’s 100.
That must have been a few years ago for a First Army patch. I would have been more curios about his Airborne tab as I don’t remember anybody on jump status. We did repatch to the 173rd AB for about two months. But Vermont (Air Force TAG) refused to pay for troops to go jump school and little things like that.
No, we were in 5th Group, so we had legit airborne tabs. The Vermonters just had a mountain tab.
I did see a LRS guy in 10th Mountain with SF, Ranger, Airborne, Mountain at JRTC years ago…
Just out of curiosity, how many years is a few? I new the XO of E/110 MI BN (LRS). He was prior service SF and had all 4 tabs. Circa 2003.
This would have been circa 1999ish. I may be off a year or two, I went to JRTC a few times in that era.
I think my unit was leaving the box, they were going in. I remember they were testing a piece of commo gear that the Battle Lab at the Intel School was trying to field, so they (Huachuca) set up a demo for the LRS and Scout Platoon folks that were there. I really had no interaction with the 10th Mountain guys other than to watch them set the thing up.
I saw the same First Army patch w/ Airborne tab in Iraq. I think it was around 04-05, maybe 03. Didn’t think it was wrong because there were 40-50 of them wearing it. I figured it would be hard for that many to be wrong at the same time.
Road Island had a small jump states unit, states with money, they might have been shuffled. Sometimes you change patches more than socks.
For many years each division, active and reserve, was authorized a Ranger Company or Long Range Surveillance Detachment, and each Corps had a Company. These units were on jump status and wore an Airborne Tab.
LRS units were deactivated in the heavy units but stayed in the light, but many states kept them around on jump status as separate units. When LRS was phased out of divisions completely, the Army refused to fund these units.
The last LRS units came down to a unit out of Michigan (F/425 IN) and Texas (G/143). It came down to which unit had the longest uninterrupted history, and Michigan won out (the 143rds break in service for the Civil War may have had something to do with it).
I believe there is another Guard unit that is round out for the 173rd- I thought it was 1-143 out of Texas, and of course there is the 19th and 20th SF groups
That’s just about what we said to these dudes, and they insisted we were wrong (and got kinda pissed about it).
I remember they were the Sherif’s patrol on Route Irish or one of the big MSRs. I’m not saying they were right, I’m saying they did it. Here’s what Wiki says:
3-172 IN (MTN) currently wears the 10th Mountain Division shoulder sleeve insignia (SSI), however, the battalion has a somewhat unusual SSI history.From the unit’s inception in 1982, until the formation of the 86th IBCT in 2007, the battalion wore the First Army insignia with “Mountain” tab as its SSI. This was originally only temporarily authorized, but as time passed no further provision of SSI for the organization was made.
Thanks for the clarification.
Just substitute the words “Black Man” or “African American” for “Veteran with PTSD,” or just plain “Veteran,” and many of these anti-cop comments will sound like they were taken off a Black Lives Matter or Antifa website.
Have you considered that some folks actually do have negative experiences with cops that are less than professional? Frequently?
I sometimes wonder if we should draft the bulk of our cops, the way we draft juries.
I definitely think the “War on X” stuff isn’t helping.
Medicade late with your meds again?
Vote Democrat for more.
Seriously, they’ll extend Red Flag laws to anyone who annoys them. (No one would abuse that, eh?)
Ya’ mean like how laws like that were NEVER abused in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union,…
This stupid progtard scrunt should get the ban hammer. Four of these assholes is a couple too many. If this as a supposed site for combat veterans turns into a forum for these paid leftist trolls, many of us will go elsewhere.
That is their goal: Shit up anything they can’t control. Drive away normals.
Fuck ‘lily”, he/she/it merely comes here to stir the shitpot and needs to be made to lick the spoon, likely an admirer of Bradley manning!
Honestly, I can’t determine what lily’s politics are because their posts are all over the map. That could be one of three things:
1). Honest, objective thinking
2). Trolling to get a reaction
3). Mental illness
I’m going with trolling masquerading as objectivity. If it is trolling Lily is playing 3D space chess and its working.
Steeleyl does not know me.
Where you been, Mr. Shit? Been missing you.
HIYA, JACK! LONG TIME TO SEE! MISSED YA. DOING WELL, I HOPE?
“HIYA JACK!”?!?!
Oh, dear. I fear you have just gotten yourself on one of those lists our protectors swear they don’t have. Keywords, ya know.
Mason, Toxic Deplorable Racist B Woodman, timactual, y’all know me!!!
I’m not sure how to react to that, 11B. I don’t think I’ve ever been called “normal” before.
I was called normal once, but I got over it.
Lily is being dealt with. Others are on the radar and may lose their comment privileges as well. The TAH FNG tab discusses board etiquette, but it really boils down to 1) keep comments relevant, and 2) be civil to others. The usual BS and banter is expected; pushing the envelope will generate a warning. Please heed it. I do not enjoy deleting comments, but will if forced.
I’m intrigued. What would count as irrelevant and uncivil on this thread?
A Proud Infidel saying “F%$k Lily”; Jack S#!t for using a clever pun to call me ignorant and stupid; or my pointing out the irony that Lily may be both an objective thinker and a troll?
I don’t recall lily’s comments on this particular thread, but he has lost comment privileges for other, cumulative remarks. I’ll welcome him back if he heeds my advice and stays relatively civil.
Proud’s comment was likely in response to lily’s, and Jack’s is part of the BS’ing and banter you’ll find common here. Feel free to reply in kind.
Your opinion of lily is your own, and has no bearing on his current condition.
My only comment on lily (if that is his real name) was that he or she was all over the map with their commentary to the point it was difficult to tell if he was just very objective, trolling to deliberately get a response, or off his meds.
Stupid is as stupid did. Both parties! When the popo came after me on trumped up charges, I did exactly what they told me to do. I was heavily out numbered, outgunned, and they had the drop on me. Took 4 days in jail, 6 grand, and another 6 months for the ex and the courts to admit that she lied her ass off.
I certainly hope you did everything you possibly could to return the favor upon her? Nothing teaches folks like pain. Particularly when they deserve it.
Thank God that even though the state I live in has been Californicated to the point that a Red Flag law was passed, my county (including the Sheriff, among others has gone on record saying they will not enforce such unconstitutional crap.
Don’t bet your personal farm on the words of a politician.
Let’s see how things roll when the costs of those words go beyond bad press and political scolding.
We have the police we have demanded for fifty years. Perhaps it is long past time we rethink the role and the mission.
Nope, viewing it with a jaundiced eye, but it’s still better than the fools in Denver and Boulder that cheered the passage of such crap..
The county I live in just voted itself a 2nd Amendment county. While I am usually considered a pro-gun kinda guy, I have a real problem differentiating between a county that says “we will selectively enforce the federal laws we do/don’t like”, and whether it’s immigration law or gun law. Seems to me little difference. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
Big difference.
The 2nd Amendment sanctuary movement is a move to protect a constitutionally guaranteed right of American citizens that cannot be contravened by law.
Illegal immigration sanctuaries are protecting federal lawbreakers from the enforcement of legally promulgated federal statutes.
I try to keep an open mind that the sanctuary types genuinely believe they are on the side of the Constitution as written. Good grief, folks can read into it all sorts of things. “Who is/isnt property” led to a war.
Some folks want States to nullify Federal items they find repugnant. Arguably, the system was built that way. Also arguably, that system changed in 1865.
As a general principle, what it boils down to again is a State having the authority to say “This is decided by us, versus the Federal government.” Immigration, guns, and a bunch of other controversies fall into this basic split. Do the States retain authority over anything not specified in the Constitution, or not? Do local LEOs have to enforce Federal laws, or at least grudgingly support that enforcement, or at least refrain from thwarting that enforcement?
“We wont enforce your gun/immigration law, because…”
“We wont allow you to enforce your gun/immigrant law because….”
The “gun” version seems clearer, because of explicitly written text of the 2nd, but I assure you, some folks see plain english for “immigration” in the 9th and 10th.
Best we work this out amicably. Because what comes after an attempted forceful resolution, of either, is likely to be far less free than what we currently have. And no, “work it out amicably” is not the same as “give in once again to the left.”
While I see your point, it bothers me that local folks are picking and choosing which laws to enforce, with either. Seems to me they take an oath to uphold all law, not just the convenient ones.
David, here’s another major difference:
1) 2d Amendment sanctuaries seek to UPHOLD federal law.
2) Immigtation sanctuaries seek to NULLIFY it.
Considering what has come to light after the fact. Should we expect a follow-up/retraction? Serving a felony warrant for burglary and aggravated harassment when he broke into his in-laws home to threaten his estranged wife, in violation of a restraining order is NOT a red flag seizure. You guys are better than this to believe the drunken ramblings of a wannabe 3%er.
Considering what has come to light after the fact, what we believed was the initial report. I’m still not terribly impressed with the way this escalated.
Remember the David Koresh / Branch Davidians fiasco? That looney could have been bagged on “Pizza in town night”, by a couple of deputies in daily attire. The casualties were a direct result of showboating. The horrific endgame was from “Oh yeah? Hold my beer and watch -this-!“
Sometimes the best way is not the “shock and awe” way.
Consider. At some point those folks determined to have a revolution, of whatever sort, on camera and right now, are going to exploit that Iron Fist habit. They are predictable. That also means the are sitting duck vulnerable, once, to a deliberate ambush. Think of some of the stuff that goes on overseas, and apply that same template here. I shudder to think of the potential casualties and resultant on-camera endless-loop “news”.
No thank you.
Not to mention that Waco was one of things that spurred Timothy McVeigh to execute the bombing in Oklahoma City. Actions like this by the government and people using the government to get even with people they don’t like (such as these red flag laws) sometimes motivates others to violently retaliate. Especially when they already have a low opinion of the government. I feel the same way about false sexual assault accusations. How long will it take before someone has their life totally ruined, completely snaps, and decides to violently get even with the person who wronged them consequences be damned? Or even worse, decides to attack the very community that they feel has wronged them?
11B Mailclerk has this right…
We the people are actually allowed a voice in how we want the police we employ to act when policing us as citizens.
If those who would be police don’t like that, there’s absolutely no requirement that they remain in uniform. No one is drafted or coerced into being part of the LEO community.
We are long past the time when we the people should discuss demilitarizing the police. We have been training all of these units to be hammers, it’s not hard to understand why they perceive every encounter to be with a nail.
We, as a society, asked for this. We demanded it.
The VA has been taking firearms rights for years, way before the red flag laws started.Stop voting for democrats and get out more.
Later articles from regular media indicate that the LEO’s were responding to a domestic dispute and the Vet went off the tracks in his response to it. Not a red flag incident. As with anything you can decide which narrative you choose to believe.