Turkey and the Kurds and US
I’m still not understanding what the angst is between the Turks and the Kurds, who are successfully doing their job in northeastern Syria, with backing from the U.S. government. Since both Turkey and the USA are allies in NATO, this issue needs to be resolved, and soon, too, since the Taliban have returned like a stomach ache.
Part I:
Turkey’s Erdogan threatens new push against US-backed Syrian Kurds
By: Suzan Fraser, The Associated Press 31 OCT 22018
ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey’s president said Tuesday his country has finalized plans for a “comprehensive and effective” operation that would target a U.S.-backed Kurdish militia in Syria east of the Euphrates River, a move that could further increase tension in the area where U.S.-led coalition forces are based.
Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s remarks came days after the Turkish military shelled Syrian Kurdish People’s Protection Units, or YPG, militia positions and following repeated warnings to expand Ankara’s operations to northeastern Syria.
Turkish forces have already forced the Syrian Kurdish forces from west of the Euphrates in two cross-border operations, in 2016 and 2018. Ankara considers the militia a terror threat and an extension of Kurdish rebels waging an insurgency within Turkey.
“Soon, we will descend on them with more comprehensive and effective” force, said Erdogan, who has long vowed to clear all of northern Syria of the militia. He spoke to ruling party legislators.
Full story is here: https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2018/10/31/turkeys-erdogan-threatens-new-push-against-us-backed-syrian-kurds/
Part II:
US, Turkey begin joint patrols around northern Syrian town of Manbij
By: Suzan Fraser, AP and Bassem Mroue, AP 1 NOV 2018
ANKARA, Turkey — Turkish and U.S. troops on Thursday began jointly patrolling areas around the northern Syrian town of Manbij, part of a roadmap for easing tensions between the two NATO allies, Turkey’s defense minister announced.
Responding to questions by legislators in Parliament, Hulusi Akar said the patrols began at 3:53 p.m. (1253 GMT) but did not provide further details.
Sharfan Darwish, spokesman of the Manbij Military Council, told The Associated Press earlier that the patrols have started and are taking place on the front lines between his group and those of Turkey-backed rebels in the operation called Euphrates Shield.
Ankara and Washington agreed on a roadmap in June amid Turkish demands for the withdrawal of the U.S.-backed Kurdish militia that freed Manbij from the Islamic State group in 2016.
The U.S. and the Turks have been conducting independent patrols along the front line and joint patrols are considered a way to tamp down potential violence between the various groups in the region. The sides have conducted 68 independent patrols before the combined patrols started.
The Manbij Military Council that administers the town says the Kurdish militia, the People’s Protection Units, or YPG, which Turkey views as a terrorist group, left Manbij in July.
Turkey considers the YPG a terrorist group because of its links to the Kurdish insurgency in southeastern Turkey. It had threatened to storm Manbij to oust the group from the region. (Okay, I get that part, but the Kurds have been there for some time, since before Saddam Hussein was born, and it is nothing new.)
The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a war monitor, also said the patrols would follow days of Turkish shelling of positions of the main Kurdish militia.
The Observatory and Kurdish spokesman Mustafa Bali said Turkish troops opened fire on the border village of Tal Fandar killing an 11-year-old girl.
So, are the Kurds the terrorists that Erdogan thinks they are?
Originally, back in The Long Ago, they were nomads in that area, just as the Mongols were and still are in Mongolia. They make up the 4th largest indigenous ethnic group in the Middle East, but never obtained a status as a permanent state. At the end of World War I, with the demise of the Ottoman Empire, the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres provided status for a Kurdish sovereign state. However, when the boundaries of modern-day Turkey were set by the Treaty of Lausanne, no such provision was included for the creation of an independent and autonomous Kurdish state. This BBC article provides near-complete information about this history. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29702440
Perhaps it’s time, or even past time, to address this issue head-on, and end the conflict between Erdogan and the Kurds. They have been, after all, successful at chasing out ISISers in Iraq when the Peshmerga had to withdraw, and Turkey refused to attack ISIS positions, resulting in the deaths of many, many Yazidis.
I think the real problem is “turf”. It’s an amorphous thing, but Erdogan sees all of the Lausanne-based boundaries of modern Turkey, including the parts occupied by Kurds, as his “turf” and he’s unwilling to bend even an inch on that.
Category: NATO
I feel for the Kurds. The Turks, Iraqi’s, the Iranians and the Syrians all have at various times attempted to cleanse them ethnically.
Thos of us who flew in support of Operation Provide Comfort/Operation Northern Watch are familiar with Operation Provide Discomfort.
Time to stuff Turkey with a coup
^this!
Or work with Russia to get Turkey of the teat(s).
Erdogan wants another Caliphate, with guess who as the Caliph. Kurds are on land he wants, and has been trying to grab for a long time.
Wouldn’t trust that SOB as far as I can spit.
IN my view, which is warped, Erdogan would turn on the US in a heartbeat if he thought he could get away with it.
However, he is as mortal as the rest of us, whether he likes it or not. He’s spitting in his own face by not making nice with the Kurds.
Ex, the only reason Turkey plays nice with us and is part of NATO is because they fear a Russian takeover of the Bosporus. The US is the only power capable of preventing that and Erdogan damned well knows it.
Poetrooper, if there were room here to go into the real history of the region, I would do so, but there just isn’t. Have to settle for skimming the surface. The conflicts in the Middle East go so far back in time that this is just a continuing story, nothing else.
If Sennacherib had not sacked Babylon and confiscated the statue of Marduk, taking it to Nineveh, would he have lived much longer? What did his death have to do with his attempt to destroy Jerusalem? The best-guess now is that the Hebrews occupying the city of Jerusalem cut the water flowing out through the city’s walls, and the army of Sennacherib, having no access to water, not only suffered from dehydration but were also vulnerable to the diseases carried by rodents that invaded their camp outside the city’s walls.
There has never been a time in the Middle East without conflict. And the Straits of Bosporus exist because of a massive earthquake that cracked open a rock wall separating a vast inaldn freshwater lake from the salt water of the Mediterranean. That fault line runs right through Turkey. Several quakes have cracked the walls of the Hagia Sofia. One of these days, there will be another massive, extremely destructive quake. Then all this conflict will be a moot point.
Can we support Erdogan’s enemies and make sure he twists his ankle?
I am getting really tired of that double faced m-effer
Bring me the Horizon.
Best British band evah
https://youtu.be/VAXg78MKJcM
One more thing the Brits managed to fuck up.
Just my opinion, cause y’all that have been in this one know way more yonder about it. I repeat again, why are we in this whole mess of the Middle East. They have all been fighting for eons; at least in this case, it’s obvious that other strong men want the real estate the Kurdish people are on. Big surprise there, some of said land is on top of oil fields. This is my shocked face. I’ll see if I can work up face palm and a throat/pearl clutch. Seems as if the Kurds are this section of the world’s Palestinians. The other Arabs (and the world) made them promises of keeping land they had been on and then decided, no we want to keep you under our thumbs. I have to agree with all of the above and say these folks are screwed. It is a testament to their warrior ability that they have held out against these organized governments that want to assimilate or destroy them. Sucks to be them right now. Turkey is just another instance of a country that is using us for their own needs while we are allowing them to be used as a NATO Base. Whose side do we need to be on? Who is truly on our side? The giant sucking sound is our tax dollars leaving our bank accounts. Sometimes it sucks to be us.
You are way off target.
I’ve trained and advised the Kurds on more than 1 occasion.
For starters, read up on the PKK & Turkey.
More later, time permitting.
School me, inquiring minds want to know. If my sympathies for the Kurdish People are wrong I’d like to know. In short, I stand by a statement I have posted many a time. We, the USA needs to GTFO of this whole ME quagmire, help our true friends in the area survive, and defend our own country. This whole section of the world is a cesspool that is sucking up American Blood and Treasury. YMMV
Your sympathies for the Kurdish people are understandable (and, largely, well-deserved), but it is a mistake to think of the Kurds as a single, unified whole. I’m not the original poster, but I worked with the Kurds quite a bit, also.
They tend to be good people with a beautiful culture – but that is empty praise as the same could be said about most independent ethnic groups. The reality is that they are largely politically/ideologically divided, and often violently so. It seems that every time they get the chance to earn some credibility as deserving of a nation of their own, they turn on each other.
I support Kurdish sovereignty, but the situation is complex. I agree with sharkman, look into some of their politics and, especially, the PKK. Even our own nation considers them to be terrorists (incidentally, IIRC, Russia does not).
Thanks Mike, appreciate that info. Will dig some more. As I stated, I know very little about that whole thing, first I’d heard/read of Kurdish folk was after DS when Saddam was turning on them. Kinda lumped the Turkish ones into that whole Armenian thing from back in the ’20s. Seems as if my original thoughts and posts are correct. ALL of the ME peoples will fight one another if they can’t/don’t have a semi common enemy. I still say GTFO of the ME. It’s a real shame and tragedy that humans are still slaughtering one another in the name of religion. SMH
I’m not suggesting you give up on the Kurds (or the greater Middle Eastern community). They are still generally good people (and their food is amazing). Just imagine if the Democratic Party was armed in the states, and the situation is no different here.
As stated, I support the Kurds, but they need to get their own house in order. They have been the US’ greatest ally in the region, despite the fact that we have, continually and consistently, abandoned them whenever it was politically expedient.
Also, as many Kurds are Muslim of various sects, Sunni and Shi’a included, religion plays little role beyond propaganda.
Separate point: More than the Armenian situation, I feel the Israel-Palestine affair is a better comparison than the Armenian situation, with some role reversal (Israel/power-player=Kurd/resolute underdog).
The Turks have had problems with the PKK branch for decades, long before Erdrogan came on the scene. As Mike says, there are factions all through the “Kurds”. I worked with them in Northern Iraq, and loved their spirit, but there are Syrian, Iranian, Iraqi and Turkish branches, and they all don’t play by the same playbook. I also saw Turkish firebases set up in Northern Iraq almost 15 years ago, so this is definitely not something new.
I did 13 months in Kirkuk. I’ve found most Kurds to be very hospitable, tolerant and freedom loving.
The Bush administration left them flapping in the wind, breaking the promise that the US would fight for the Kurds’ autonomy or self governance.
Damn them.
If we ever had a friend in the ME, we’ve lost ‘em and probably caused our troops to be hurt in the process.
You’d figure after Vietnam we’d learn to NOT fight a war with NGOs and three-lettered agencies but why change when the ruling class gets rich having KBR suck blackwater?
For some reason was thinking of the cost of this series of ops. Your mention of the ruling class getting rich made me do the leg work.
Cost of the Apollo program in 2017 dollars? $144 billion.
Astan war? $1.07 trillion! The Iraq war has similar estimates.
WWII was roughly $4 trillion in modern dollars.
” Erdogan sees all of the Lausanne-based boundaries of modern Turkey, including the parts occupied by Kurds, as his “turf” and he’s unwilling to bend even an inch on that.”
That’s his job. It’s the job of any nation’s leader to protect his nation’s territory. Should we return the southwest to Mexico? Washington state to Canada?
Granted, and I do not begrudge that to him. But this is a strong ally he could use in that region, if he had the sense to look at them that way. Instead, while the US has allied itself with the Kurds in one district, he ignores that and bombards them.
He’s only sucking up to the US because he’s afraid of Russia, as someone else has indicated elsewhere.
Tim, you are right that a national leader should defend his nations borders.
The problem is that Erdogon preferred Isis on his southern border.
Once the Kurds kicked Isis out, Turkey invaded Syria and took the Syrian city of Afrin from the Kurds.
So the Kurds would not link up Afrin with Manbij and Kobane and control the entire Turkish/Syrian border area as the Kurdish state of Rojava.
Turkey is now occupying Syrian territory and the Isis revival is almost entirely due to Turkish support of Isis.
I believe we are also occupying Syrian territory, and have killed several hundred Russian “mercenaries” in the process.
I really don’t care about ISIS. It is only a symptom, and unless we are willing to do much, much, more to exterminate it we are wasting time, resources, and lives. As some dead, white, male general said-“Mass, not driblets”.