14th Amendment, Pt. IIa Sec. (B1015zillow)

| October 31, 2018

GOP Sen. Lindsey Graham announced on Twitter Tuesday morning that he will introduce legislation similar to any executive order President Trump might issue ending birthright citizenship in the United States. He tried to do that in 2010.

“Finally, a president willing to take on this absurd policy of birthright citizenship,” Graham tweeted Tuesday. “In addition, I plan to introduce legislation along the same lines as the proposed executive order from President Trump.”

Oh, and now, the Democrats are experts on the Constitution, as noted [below – my bad!]  before.

On Tuesday morning, Rep. Justin Amash, a Michigan Republican who frequently vocalizes his differences with the president, emphasized that ending birthright citizenship would require a constitutional amendment.

“A president cannot amend Constitution or laws via executive order,” Amash tweeted. “Concept of natural-born citizen in 14th Amendment derives from natural-born subjects in Britain. Phrase ‘and subject to the jurisdiction thereof’ excludes mainly foreign diplomats, who are not subject to U.S. laws.”

Apparently, Amash has forgotten that statute on the books that gives American citizenship to people who were born overseas to American parents, e.g., military and diplomat families stationed in France or Japan or the UK.

So they want to trash the Constitution because of the Electoral College, but they want to keep it, too, because of “citizenship” stuff. Well, you wouldn‘t want to lose all those votes, would you?

Okay. Whatever.  Pres. Trump certainly does know how to poke the bear when he needs to.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/in-the-past-republicans-have-suggested-ending-birthright-citizenship-requires-amending-constitution/

Thanks for reading.

Category: "The Floggings Will Continue Until Morale Improves"

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AW1Ed

Who is this and what have you done to the real Lindsey Graham?

He’s a new man after the Kavanaugh confirmation circus; guess his balls finally dropped. Whatever caused the sea change in Graham, I like it.

Devtun

His mentor John McCain no longer being around probably partially explains the transformation. IIRC political pundits were wondering about the weird change in Graham well before the Kavanaugh hearings.

Slow Joe

Dudes, “V” 2010 is available in Amazon prime. For free!

I have never watched it, so binge time!

Slow Joe

For those of you not initiated, the V are an analogy for radical leftism. They are aliens who promise a better life, and deliver only death, but all youngsters believed them.

I can’t even believe Hollywood ever produced this TV show.
They clearly didn’t read the original material.

11B-Mailclerk

The red uniforms with the almost- swastika symbols?

Nah…

Slow Joe

Is that Morena Baccarin?
Playing the leader of the aliens?
How appropriate.

Martinjmpr

Not sure what your point is – are you saying that because Congress can pass a statute granting citizenship to children born of American parents outside the US, Congress can also pass a statute that conflicts with the 14th Amendment? Because that’s not how the law works.

Whether we like it or not, the 14th Amendment could not be more clear: Anyone born in the US and subject to the jurisdiction of the US (which means anybody who is not protected under diplomatic status) is, per the constitution, a US citizen by birth.

Don’t like it? Amend the Constitution then. But neither Congress nor the President have the authority to make laws that are in clear and direct conflict with the Constitution, and that’s a GOOD thing.

AW1Ed

“Anyone born in the US and subject to the jurisdiction of the US (which means anybody who is not protected under diplomatic status) is, per the constitution, a US citizen by birth.”

Depends on ones interpretation of “jurisdiction.” A foreign child born here is under the jurisdiction of his/her parent’s country, not the US.

That’s the argument, and it’s going to be very interesting watching this work its way through the courts.

OSC(SW) Retired

It is pretty hard to argue that you have plenary or sovereign power to control immigration while saying the same entity has no jurisdiction over the immigrant in question. The very same Amendment mentions both citizens and “all persons” so it is clear that the intent was not to defer jurisdiction in matters regarding non-citizens to their nation of origin, but rather to reserve jurisdiction. Otherwise there would be no reason to have laws deferring jurisdiction in the case of diplomats and foreign military personnel.

Martinjmpr

Depends on ones interpretation of “jurisdiction.” A foreign child born here is under the jurisdiction of his/her parent’s
country, not the US.

Nope. They can be charged with a crime in the US, they can be haled into civil court, ergo they are “subject to the jurisdiction” of the US.

The only people in the US who are not under jurisdiction of US law are those who are protected by a diplomatic status, SOFA or similar agreement.

Those of you who are staunch supports of the 2nd amendment might stop to think a moment about what could be done by a future president or congress if we allow such torturous interpretations of commonly understood terms like “subject to the jurisdiction” or “shall not be infringed.”

That may not be a precedent you want to set. 😉

11B-Mailclerk

“It’s a -collective- right, so the States can have a National Guard. It doesn’t mean -you- people.”

Didn’t buy that one either, nor other “emanations in the penumbra”.

Amend it, don’t end it. If the meanings “evolve” or totherwise mutate with time, it isn’t a “living document”,

It becomes a dead letter.

I will grudgingly accept immigration problems, requiring the mess of an amendment fight, in exchange for not unleashing “creative interpretation” and/or “discovered other meaning” as the new normal in constitutional law.

Poetrooper

Jumper, usually agree with you but you need to study the 14th Amendment arguments from the time it was being promoted. Its actual purpose was to guarantee citizenship to children of American slaves. Southern Democrats were hell-bent on denying their former slaves that right so the Republican Party pushed for a constitutional guarantee that could not be ignored by the former slave states.

Tucker Carlson had an excellent discussion with a Hillsdale College professor recently which you should watch. It might make you realize your argument is not as certain as you apparently believe:

https://video.foxnews.com/v/5855587517001/?#sp=show-clips

Some Guy

I have to disagree. The arguments made in creating a law mean nothing, what ultimately matters is what was written down and passed into law. We can’t build a society around guessing the true meaning and history of laws, we need to rely on what’s actually on the paper. To paraphrase a famous SCJ, the constitution is dead. Don’t like it? Get congress to change it.
Aside from that, I would also agree that birthright citizenship should be ended, but not by executive overreach.

Alberich

I’m strongly inclined to agree with Martin here–regardless of the situation the 14th Amendment was addressing, its language is hard to get around. In the end, “original intent” is about understanding what the words mean…not about limiting a statute or a constitution to the original situation.

But I am glad of what both the President and Sen. Graham are proposing to do…as I mentioned under another post, if they try this and they fail in the courts, that may be the best way to get things moving for an amendment. Because birthright citizenship is not at all working out to our advantage as a country, and this would be a worthy amendment.

(And if the Supreme Court reads the Amendment differently than I do and says a statute is good enough, well, I can live with that if I have to.)

luddite4change

What the President has done is just stake out a more advantageous negotiating position regarding immigration going forward.

At a minimum, he has placed birthright citizenship as an item of discussion whereas it wasn’t on Monday.

There has been relatively few ruling on the 14th Amendment from SCOTUS (the most notable being US vs. Wong Kim Ark and Elk v. Wilkins), so the chances of a win or loss by one side or the other on this are pretty considerable, probably 50/50 or maybe 60/40 that children of illegal aliens are not citizens.

There is no downside to Trump if he losses in court, while the downside to his opponents is considerable.

Alberich

What the President has done is just stake out a more advantageous negotiating position regarding immigration going forward. At a minimum, he has placed birthright citizienship as an item of discussion whereas it wasn’t on Monday.

Exactly! And that is a fine thing, by itself. Immigration was the issue that brought him to the forefront in the first place; it was a weak point of the “establishment” GOP and of the Democrats; he does well to beat the drum on that subject even if these first two initiatives don’t work.

Poetrooper

Counselor, here’s a venerable colleague who disagrees with you. And he’s a Never-Trumper to boot.

Let’s hope the administration moves quickly on its EO and that the Supreme Court fast-tracks the challenge.

Alberich

Thanks for an interesting article! If Mr. Trump and Sen. Graham do what they are promising, we will very soon find out whether the Supreme Court agrees with me and Martin vs. Professor Schuck.

And as I note above, in agreement with L4C, they will have done a good thing even if they lose…and maybe pave the way for something better.

Alberich

(Also, if they lose, you’ll get the consolation prize: knowing that “legal commenters at ThisAintHell are smarter than Yale law profs…” Yeah, there may be a flaw in that reasoning, somewhere, but I don’t care to dig it out.)

Doc (FMF)

Please read ALL the words. There”s a lot of room for discussion of intent, especially when you look at the writings of the amendments author. Hope this makes it to the Supreme Court ASAFP.

2/17 Air Cav

Tell you what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna actually do some research and report back in however many days it takes, in light of other stuff I am doing. There are many variables in this and parts and pieces that need to be addressed with terms defined. That’sa whata Ima gonna do.

11B-Mailclerk

Much appreciate the pro-work for us amateurs.

5jc

As I wrote the other day in the last thread I fully agree with everything Martin wrote. I’ll say it again. It says what it says. Weasle around it is for the other team. Don’t like it? Change it.

Problem is that after this election it will be near impossible to get a Constitutional Convention going.

11B-Mailclerk

Oh? The convention of states efforts have made surprising progress.

I have a family member who is a big time advocate for a convention of states. The thinking is covered in Levin’s book on the subject. I was highly skeptical, but am beginning to see it as a way to finally get some hard limits in place, that Congress would never impose on itself.

It may avert the wreck of the Republic, if we can prevent it form being worse than what it seeks to cure. Strict limits would be needed on the participants and topics.

The -last- Convention was effectively a Coup against the original Articles of Confederation. It was just supposed to amend it, not end it.

-Strict- and -enforceable- limits are a must.

Surprise….

David

Do NOT wish for a Constitutional Convention. Literally they could rewrite the whole thing. Remember when they met to address the Articles of Confederation?

11B-Mailclerk

If the state delegates are chartered only for certain amendments, they have no authority to scrap it.

Limited power of attorney. For example. If you give me one to sell your car, I can’t sell your house.

OWB

Nope. That is NOT how it works. At all. Each state legislature limits what can be discussed.

2/17 Air Cav

I just watched a recording made in 2015 of then-candidate Trump saying that the issue of anchor babies will be addressed, that the 14th A may or may not be at issue, and that he would find out once in the White House. Another Trump promise kept.

OldSoldier54

I was never wild about Trump being POTUS, not being a fan of blow-hards.

However, I’m starting to take a shine to the Donald, because results are hard to argue against.

Especially, as there seems to be method to his braggadocio.

11B-Mailclerk

So far, I can accept the occasional disagreement in exchange for the overall progress.

Watching lefty heads explode has been. … remarkably satisfying. It’s like some long deferred payoff…

JacktheJarhead

I love how the Dems throw crap like the Invasion “Caravan”, the fake bomber and other lovely things their propoganda arm can use.

Then Trump throws them a curve ball and they all go insane, start running around, calling in experts and use up news cycles so it is now at the top of the news.

All the other Smoke and Mirrors fade back. Love it and they play into his hands, time after time.

Poetrooper

Some folks are referring to that caravan as the country’s “Longest unemployment line.”

RGR 4-78

Medicade, welfare, WICK, lots of lines to be filled.

AnotherPat

“Harry Reid’s 1993 Claim That ‘No Sane Country’ Would Provide Birthright Citizenship Fuels GOP Immigration Push”

Yep…he actually said that. It’s caught on video in this Fox News story:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/harry-reids-1993-claim-no-sane-country-would-provide-birthright-citizenship-fuels-gop-immigration-push

David

What’s funny is how the libs are scrambling saying that is old, obsolete, etc… yet said Blasey-Ford’s flawed memory was gospel truth.

Martinjmpr

A child of a diplomat is not subject to US jurisdiction and therefore has no claim of citizenship.

Martinjmpr

Seems likely that until such claim is granted the diplomat is still not subject to US jurisdiction and therefore the child of said diplomat is not a US citizen, but I don’t know if such a thing has ever been tested in US courts so I can’t say for sure.

IIRC asylum applications can take months to decide, if not longer. Once granted asylum in the US that person is subject to US laws (whereas a diplomat is not) and so at that point if a child is born the 14th Amendment kicks in and the child is a US citizen by birth.

thebesig

Definitely, do the Executive Order, watch it get challenged, take it to the Supreme Court. If the Supreme Court rules in favor of President Trump, watch the NPCs go into overdrive talking about how we should abide completely by the constitution, how the court is being activist, etc… Bringing their hypocrisy in full light. Then, we use their arguments against them regarding Roe versus Wade. President Trump knows exactly what he’s doing. :mrgreen:

OSC(SW) Retired

Might run into the Kavanaugh conundrum. This is already settled law. United States v. Wong Kim Ark set the precedent. So even a 5-4 court might not be able to find a way around that SCOTUS decision.

Martinjmpr

Not at all – there is no limitation on SCOTUS’s ability to reverse itself. There isn’t even any kind of time limitation.

The shortest time I think the Court ever reversed itself was when in Bowers v. Hardwick the court held that sodomy was not protected by the constitution in 1986 and then 17 years later in 2003 in Lawrence v. Texas they ruled that it was.

Bottom line, there is no reason a current SCOTUS cannot overturn a decision of a previous SCOTUS.

Luddite4change

Its generally been pretty rare; however.

Ret_25X

Let’s just be honest. Citizenship should be earned. Being born is not something that earns one anything. Being 18 or 21 is not something that should anyone anything.

The concept of citizenship in Starship Troopers is looking better and better…if…we can also have the discipline of the military in that book…

Can you imagine a world in which the fakers and other dick weeds could not succeed?

ChipNASA

Trump is beating the Dems harder than a Chinese Gong. I love watching it day after day.
I can’t wait for the collective pants pissing and shitting next Tuesday.
It’s going to be *glorious*.

AW1Ed

They are simply not equipped to deal with push-back. All previous Republican Presidents “grinned and bore it” when the Lame Stream Media and the Dems took their shots.

No more, and they can’t process it, so they go full retard- cry bully- adolescent meltdown mode, fling poo in all directions at once.

And I’m enjoying every minute of it.

5th/77th FA

Got me a deal on microwaveable Skinny Pop @ the K Roger. Already getting set up to watch ‘splodey heads on the TV set next Tuesday. Good Times. The Donald just trying to do what he said would do.

26Limabeans

We have ranked choice voting in Maine. It will be a few weeks before the results are known.
Just wait until 2020. Maine will be the deciding state and it will be the next midterms before they figure out who won.
Ranked choice is similar to the March Madness picks. Nobody knows until the last candidate is standing. Stupid stupid stupid.
And coming to a state near you.
Worse than referendums. Mob rule.
One man, multiple votes.
And do overs are next.

5th/77th FA

Dahell and daphuque Lb. I read that 3 times and still scratched my watch and wound my ass trying to figure out what it means. Best I can cipher is, it will be pert near St Patties day before y’all know for sure who won what. And all of this from descendants of the likes of Ethan Allen and Joshua Chamberlin/20th Maine V Corps. Coming to a state near me soon? Dahell you say. Well maybe FL, we all know how that place is. God Lord willing, and I can shame enough people into getting out next week, us Georgians will dodge a socialist democrat, funded by nanny,difi,maxie pad et al. God helps us all, everyone.

26Limabeans

If no candidate gets more than 50 percent then they keep voting until one does.
It’s a liberals heaven.
A conservatives nightmare.

SFC D

Might as well have a lottery. Winner gets the office, loser gets stoned in the town square.

11B-Mailclerk

Trump beats dems like a bass drum at a thrash-metal festival.

11B-Mailclerk

Now playing:

OrangePocalypse

BlueCord Dad

United States v Wong Kim Ark(1898)
‘..that a child born to foreign citizens here permanently and “legally” becomes a citizen of the US by virtue of the first clause of the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution’
I put the quotes around legally. Maybe this is what POTUS is hanging his hat on?

OSC(SW) Retired

The problem with that is the decision did not hinge on his parent’s legal status or allegiance. It was about Wong Kim Ark’s allegiance to the U.S. They essentially said that his allegiance to the sovereign and the sovereign’s allegiance to him were established at birth (common law). Since he never exercised his right of expatriation, and his parents never renounced his allegiance for him, the question of his citizenship had to be answered in the affirmative.

luddite4change

Yet, it still took Congress to pass a law in the 1920’s to grant Indians citizenship by birth. Had Congress and the courts believed that Wong applied to all persons born on US territory then the Indian Citizenship Act would have been unnecessary.

OSC(SW) Retired

That was a completely different situation. Native Americans were in a unique situation that they were born on soil within the United States that was deeded to a quasi-sovereign nation. So when John Elk was born he owed allegiance to the nation in which he was born, his tribal nation. Since the tribe had direct jurisdiction over Mr. Elk the allegiance test meant he was not born a citizen. It took a law to correct that for about 300,000 Native Americans.
In the Won Kim Ark case, he was born on U.S. soil under the direct jurisdiction of only the U.S. government.

USMCMSgt(Ret)

In that case, the parents in the Won Kim Ark case we’re legally in the country.

I suspect this is one of the cases that raises the question.

The short argument is this: If you’re not legally in the country, your child isn’t granted citizenship status because of the parents illegal status.

USMCMSgt(Ret)

Or something else, perhaps.

David

Where do you find that ‘legally’? https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/169/649 seems to have no mention of it.
(Not to mention the confusion over the vague wording… does it mean “the parents here legally”? Or that the child “legally becomes a citizen”?

Club Manager, USA ret.

My wife keeps trying to evoke the 4th Amendment, the part about she cannot be forced to board a soldier in her home :>))

Combat Historian

That would be the 3rd Amendment. The 4th prevents unreasonable search and seizure, although the 4th may apply if she considers you “contraband”… 🙂

Club Manager, USA ret.

Thanks for keeping me straight. We had a lawyer do a presentation at a meeting the other night and I mixed up my amendments. Heck, the only one that counts in Arkansas is the second anyway.

26Limabeans

One of the reasons for the 3rd was Brittish Soldiers taking wives for servitude as well as livestock etc.

It’s like the difference between the ninth and tenth commandments.

2nd Can’t take my gun.
3rd Can’t take my wife, my dog, my beer….

Sparks

In my humble opinion, anchor babies and their mothers and every cousin they can get into the country, are just that anchors around our necks. Anchors dragging down our economy, our culture, our language and everything else that makes this nation great. So cut the chains and send them back with a nice pamphlet titled, “How To Be A Good Citizen and Make Your OWN Country Great”.

Because ours already is and it was paid for by the blood, limbs, and lives of countless patriots. So we don’t need YOU, your language, your culture or anything you have to offer.

Sparks

Yes, I know. They’re after the big free ride.

Cthulhu

It would require a fully ratified constitutional amendment. Congress will never do it and the states sure as hell won’t.

Not going to happen. Not in our lifetimes.

Period.

This is Lindsey Graham sucking up to Trump in his audition to replace Jeff Sessions as attorney general.

To help you all get your head around this; imagine a president saying he would ban all firearms through executive order.

It is insane and completely beyond presidential authority.

And the 14th Amendment is even more indisputably clear about natural born citizenship than the 2nd amendment is about armed citizens.

USMCMSgt(Ret)

Executive Orders aren’t laws.

Cthulhu

Didn’t say they were.

26Limabeans

How about when Barry did it?
Can we go back and see what you said then? I think we can.

Cthulhu

Did what? Sign executive orders? How is that relevant?

5th/77th FA

Never say never!…Chew toy on aisle 1.

USMCMSgt (Ret)

“And the 14th Amendment is even more indisputably clear about natural born citizenship than the 2nd amendment is about armed citizens”.

That’s fuggin hilarious!

Cthulhu

Read the text concerning citizenship. No confusing clauses about well regulated militias or anything that leaves any doubt that being born here makes you an American citizen.

26Limabeans
My Two Cents

In the book: “The Conservative Case for Trump”, Phyllis Schlafly explained:
“With Donald Trump as president, the clear intent of the Fourteenth Amendment can be reinforced. The Fourteenth Amendment, ratified in 1868, was designed to overturn the Dred Scott decision in which the U.S. Supreme Court declared African Americans could not be citizens. It had nothing to do with offering citizenship to the children of foreign nationals. In fact, the Fourteenth Amendment did not even apply to American Indians, because they were “subject to the jurisdiction” of their tribal governments. Congress did not grant citizenship to American Indians on reservations until 1924, fifty-six years later.” (page 19-20)

2/17 Air Cav

Part I The issue generated by President Trump regarding the 14th A is whether a child born in the United States to a woman who is in the United States illegally is, by virtue of that birth, a United States citizen. The operative word, as he put it, is illegally. The 14th A does not distinguish between a child born to a woman here legally or illegally. The only qualifier in the 14th A is that the child born here be subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. What does that mean? Before there was a 14th A, there was the Civil Rights Bill of 1866. It began, “…That all persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States….” You can read the whole of it here: http://legisworks.org/sal/14/stats/STATUTE-14-Pg27.pdf The statute was passed by a majority Republican Congress over President Andrew Johnson’s veto. That law is widely regarded as the backdrop for the 14th A citizenship clause but, of course, something changed when the bill provision quoted above was written into the 14th A: the words “not subject to any foreign power” were dropped in favor of “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” Enter onto the scene the Supreme Court in 1898 when it decided the case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark. The cite is 169 US 649. Here: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/169/649/ Wong Kim Ark was born in the US in 1873 to a woman who was here legally from China. He and his parents left the US in 1890 but he returned alone that year and was granted entry. In 1894, he went back to China for a visit and returned to the US in 1895. He was denied entry on the sole basis that he was not a US citizen. (The Chinese Exclusion Act was in force.) The Supreme Court ruled in favor of Wong Kim Ark but, of course, he was born to a woman here legally so that was not an issue for the court. Nevertheless, the decision… Read more »

rgr769

I don’t have a problem with birth right citizenship for people who are here legally as permanent resident aliens. What I have a problem with is people who come here illegally or solely for the purpose of dropping a kid here so they can anchor their application to come here or as a basis for staying here, illegally. I am also highly offended by the bullshit that we can’t detain a parent because it will separate them from their child. We do that every day with American citizens with children who are arrested and incarcerated. The effing MSM treats us like we all rode the short bus to school when we were kids.

11B-Mailclerk

Sponsoring family is purely by statute.

We could end that statute next session of congress. No more “anchor babies”. The kid gets to stay. Mom and pop get to jump the hoops or leave. They can take the kid or surrender for adoption. I favor the latter, actually, as the kid is -us-

Harsh? Yup. Workable? Certainly. Ends chain migration and actor babies on the spot.

So why won’t folks talk about -that- statute? Agenda maybe?

11B-Mailclerk

Gah.

Anchor not actor. My phone spell-check is a Lefty stooge and saboteur.

2/17 Air Cav

I’m working my way to pertinent statutes but because of the huge amount of bad information circulating by “experts,” I wanted to lay an unbiased foundation for the issue. Some people draw a conclusion (e.g., Trump is wrong or Trump is right) and then cherry pick what will best serve that conclusion. I’m trying hard to steer clear of doing that.

2/17 Air Cav

Part II “The question presented by the record is whether a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States by virtue of the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution[.]” That’s how the Supreme Court framed the issue in Wong Kim Ark in 1898. The court explained that nowhere in the Constitution is citizenship or citizen defined and, in the absence of a definition, the court would look primarily to English common law for guidance. (And this is where it gets interesting.) In doing so, the court looked back nearly 300 years to Calvin’s Case (a/k/a the Case of the Postnati) and wrote this: “The fundamental principle of the common law with regard to English nationality was birth within the allegiance, also called “ligealty,” “obedience,” “faith,” or “power” of the King. The principle embraced all persons born within the King’s allegiance and subject to his protection. Such allegiance and protection were mutual — as expressed in the maxim protectio trahit subjectionem, et subjectio protectionem — and were not restricted to natural-born subjects and naturalized subjects, or to those who had taken an oath of allegiance, but were predicable of aliens in amity so long as they were within the kingdom. Children, born in England, of such aliens were therefore natural-born subjects. But the children, born within the realm, of foreign ambassadors, or the children of alien enemies, born during and within their hostile occupation of part of the King’s dominions, were not natural-born subjects because not born within the allegiance, the obedience, or the power, or, as would be said at this day, within the jurisdiction, of the King.” I’m going to repeat a line from that, sans the Latin: “Such allegiance and protection were mutual… Read more »

luddite4change

Food for thought: The rule was that if a child was born in England to a foreigner, the child was English except if the child was born to a foreign ambassador or the birth occurred “during the hostile occupation of any part of the territories of England.” There is no exception for a child born otherwise, including to a foreigner who entered England illegally.

What constitutes a “hostile occupation”, as a concept of legal vs. illegal immigration/travel had not been developed. It was only after WWI when visas came into common use that a distinction came into existence.

Thanks for the background, looking forward to part III.

David

More food for thought: the SC decision was based on then-Common Law… and the UK has since abolished birthright citizenship for all.

5th/77th FA

Will we be quizzed on this lesson? If so, will it be essay, multiple choice, fill in the blank, or true/false? Are you grading on a curve? How can we earn extra credit? Why is the Soviet the teacher’s pet? Will libie heads go all ‘splodey ‘splodey if this passes?

2/17 Air Cav

Nah, my motivation was the sound-bite set and those in the media who opine w/o having any clue as to what this citizenship question is all about. That goes, perhaps doubly, for TV guest lawyers whose idea of research is to read Wiki while in make-up.

Luddite4change

Where is the third installment?

USMCMSgt (Ret)

Slow down, Cthulhu. You haven’t seen the ball since it was snapped.

USMCMSgt (Ret)

(Dammit. Wrong thread. Sorry bout that). The info you posted is fascinating. Much appreciated.

2/17 Air Cav

Part III If the 14th A’s citizenship clause were the be all and end all on babies born in the US, and its language were so plain that no interpretation of it is necessary, then all matters concerning it would moot. We would simply read the citizenship clause and ask, “Was the baby whose citizenship is being questioned born in the United States?” If the answer were yes, then it would necessarily follow that the baby is a US citizen. And if the answer were no, then we could ask other questions regarding the baby’s parentage. But nothing is ever that easy or simple and we covered one exception to the “yes” answer already with respect to a baby born in the US to a foreign ambassador. Another exception was an Indian baby born in the United States, whether or not born on tribal land. There is no question that the United States exercised jurisdiction over Indians, just as there is no question that the nature of that jurisdiction, while incomplete and not exclusive, has been altered through acts of Congress and Supreme Court decisions. In 1924, Congress conferred US citizenship on all members of US Indian tribes. It did so with these words: “BE IT ENACTED by the Senate and house of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That all non citizen Indians born within the territorial limits of the United States be, and they are hereby, declared to be citizens of the United States: Provided That the granting of such citizenship shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of any Indian to tribal or other property.” All of the foregoing is offered to establish that Congress certainly has the power to pass laws that affect citizenship, including birthright citizenship. The power derives from two places in the Constitution, Article I, Section 8, giving Congress the power “To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization” and the 14th A’s Section 5, giving Congress the power “to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.” Accordingly, looking only at the language of… Read more »

David

I believe the Indian citizenship act was due to the phrasing in the 14th, that “under the jurisdiction” phrase – it was argued Indians were primarily subject to tribal laws rather than US laws, hence not under US jurisdiction, hence not full citizens, and the 1924 law was intended to clarify that they were indeed citizens.

2/17 Air Cav

No, David, the law did not, as you say, “clarify” that Indians were citizens: it gave them citizenship.

2/17 Air Cav

Part IV The Constitution nowhere vests decision making regarding immigration or citizenship determinations in the executive branch. That power belongs to Congress. But Congress does not run the agencies it creates and funds: bureaucrats do. Executive branch agencies are empowered, by law, to establish operating procedures. The idea is that Congress passes a law and, within that law, an agency is charged to give effect to the policy within that law by promulgating appropriate regulation. Technically, all regulations are to stay within the policy boundary lines, or scope, of the enabling statute, but the lines are rarely sharp and clear. As a result, rulemaking by an agency frequently appears to be lawmaking and, as a practical matter, sometimes is. Law and regulation are not the only licenses and constraints under which executive branch agencies operate. There are also executive orders. An executive order is exactly that, an order, in writing, issued by the nation’s chief executive that directs an executive branch agency to do something or to cease doing something. The constitutional authority for executive orders traces to Article 2, Section 3 which, in part, mandates that the chief executive “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed.” Perhaps the most infamous executive order was order 9066. It was issued by FDR and authorized the internment of Americans of Japanese dissent. On the flip side, perhaps the most famous directive issued by a chief executive came from Lincoln. We call it the Emancipation Proclamation. In 1948, Harry Truman issued Executive Order 9981, effectively abolishing segregation in the military. The point is not to argue the directives, or edicts, but to illustrate the tremendous power that can be wielded by a president through the executive order. Through the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, Congress expressly gave the chief executive much authority in the area of immigration. In fact, Congress effectively, but conditionally, gave the president its power to make certain decisions regarding who may be admitted to the country. Here’s a cite to the 1972 case in which the Supreme Court upheld a decision of the Attorney General to bar… Read more »

5th/77th FA

We are now highly schooled there Professor. A little more make out…err make up time spent with Mary Ann in afternoon detention and I’ll have it down. The talking head “experts” will run screaming from the green room when they see the preparations you’ve made. As you pointed out, this issue could actually go either way when it gets to SCOTUS. Guess lib heads went all ‘splodey ‘splodey when they realized that The Donald had a phone and a pen also. At the very least his action on an EO will get the ball rolling to fully address the whole issue in immigration and citizenship. EO can go both ways, and are very easily overturned. Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation didn’t free that many slaves in itself at all, but it did lead to the 13th A. Truman’s EO was seen as a lawful order from the CINC, so bingo bongo it happened. There were senior officers who didn’t agree with Harry at the time, but they followed the order. Remember reading a good number of years back, some conversation over whether children born in the South between 1861 and 1865 had US Citizenship. That was left to quietly fade away and not discussed. Good stuff and fine job you done good.

OWB

Good stuff, all. Thanks for bringing it up, PH, and thanks to AC for giving us so much background on how we got here.

Lots of great information to use there.

2/17 Air Cav

Information is power. Information also brings frustration to those who possess it. Whatever the topic, from guns to recipes, it is maddening to hear someone claim to know what they clearly do not. Politicians make long careers banking on that truism. Most people lack information and, thus, are beholden to others. It explains, to me, why I have rec’d pounds of political mailings, all of which are absolute bullshit. Sadly, they must work for some voters. Ditto the 30-second radio and TV commercials.

Luddite4 change

Thanks for the hard work. Definitely not a slam dunk.