Guest post; John McCain and the USS Forrestal fire
Atkron sends us the following, his work on John McCain and the fire on the USS Forrestal;
I’m not a big fan of John McCain, ever since he took the side of Airbus over Boeing in the whole new Aerial Refueling Tanker fiasco from around ten years ago. I think, like many politicians, John McCain is in the pockets of special interest groups.
All that aside, McCain did not initiate the fire that claimed 164 lives onboard USS Forrestal on July 29, 1967. The attached meme states that McCain was showing off, and caused a wet start which in turn started the fire that turned into a tragedy.
What did cause the fire?
Pulled ground safety pins and stray voltage in the armament system caused a Zuni Rocket to fire off from the F-4 it was loaded on, and into an A-4 (which may have been McCain’s or the aircraft directly beside his.) This first explosion released all the fuel in the stricken A-4 onto the deck underneath an entire row of Attack aircraft loaded for the days strike missions inside enemy territory. Eventually the flames started cooking off the ordnance, the first of these explosions took out Chief Ferrier, and most of the repair locker responsible for flight deck firefighting. The chief is the man shown on the PLAT footage running into the flames with a PKP Bottle that disappears when the ordnance explodes.
Many mistakes were made that day, most of which were unknown errors until the analysis provided the cause. The US Navy, like many other organizations, write the vast majority of their safety instructions in blood. Meaning, that someone has to get injured or killed before something changes. Here is what the Navy learned:
1) Prior to anything being loaded onto a weapons station a stray voltage check must be performed
2) Ground safety pins will only be pulled right before taxiing (while ashore), at the runway hold short (ashore), or at the catapult (while at-sea).
3) Repair lockers will no longer be utilized on the flight deck
4) All personnel that work on, or around, the flight deck will be flight deck firefighting certified
a. Certification involves actually fighting fires in a training environment
The people spreading this lie have obviously never worked in Naval Aviation (USN/USMC), and most definitely they never worked a day on the flight deck otherwise they would realize a few glaring discrepancies in their narrative.
A) A wet start is when the pilot applies too much throttle before igniting the engine
a. Think of it like flooding the engine of your car
B) A wet start would be recognized by the Plane Captain (PC) as a mist exiting the tail pipe
a. The PC would then continue to point aft while fanning his face with his other hand
b. The pilot will recognize this to mean wet start
c. The pilot and PC will then windmill the engine until the tail pipe is free from vapor
C) Wet starts do not cause fires, a wet start CAN cause a Hot Start
a. The PC upon seeing flames come out of the tail pipe would continue to point aft, and this time draw a sideways lazy 8 in the air with his other hand
b. The pilot would recognize this to mean Hot Start
c. The pilot and PC will windmill the engine until the flames go away
D) McCain’s airplane was tail over water (TOW) how would flames going out of an exhaust ejector start a huge fire if the flames were headed out over the water?
a. This assumes he had a wet start/hot start
E) Plane Captains are trained to recognize these scenarios, and must go to a board review in order to become qualified as a Plane Captain for their type aircraft.
a. I was a Plane Captain for A-7E Corsair II’s and F/A-18C Hornets
F) Not one swinging dick that was on deck that day fault McCain for the fire
a. Question has been asked multiple times on the Forrestal Facebook Group
I am sick and tired of this story about McCain being at fault, he may be a lot of things…but he is not responsible for killing 164 men, and injuring another 161.
Here, watch Trial by Fire:
We watched that film in Boot Camp, A-School, and during Flight Deck Firefighting School; part of the lessons learned by the Navy…to train new Sailors to fight the ship properly.
I served onboard USS Forrestal during the work-ups and cruise during 1989-90 with VA-105. Our 96 man berthing was on the O3 Level right below where those explosions took place. In fact, if I were a betting man, I would bet that some of the holes in the deck on that day opened up into our berthing. That, coupled with the plaque that was displayed in Hangar bay 1 to commemorate the dead made this subject pretty near and dear to my heart.
Category: Historical
Thanks, Atkron.
I am not a John McCain [spit] fan, but also do not believe in false accusations or incriminations.
There is enough that he has done to criticize him for without adding falsehoods to the screed.
Concur.
That’s what I always thought about Obama, et al. Why make stuff up or go for spurious things when there are a plethora of legitimate Constitution-spitting-on things he is doing.
McCain has always bothered me, but I respect his service and fortitude while a prisoner (refusing release deals, etc.) Let’s focus on his campaigning as a conservative but being a RINO weasel if we are talking politics.
“In Washington, compromise means agreeing with Democrats”
R. H. Limbaugh
Yeah because we give two shits about what he did 50 years ago. He is a vile pile of shit who Im glad is dead. The peice of shit left his first wife when she became crippled and sold out every Republican that voted for him time and time again. He is the epitome of what Trump is trying to expose and get rid of. You chickens are coming home to roost rump swabs and moon bats!
John McCain suffered a terrible time as a POW. For that he gets credit. Since then, especially of late, his political stance has not been “for the best good of the Nation”. He is a prime example of why there is no valid reason to re-elect any person to office. This nation of over 320 million people, surely has enough statesmen to be able to fill every office from county commissioner to the US congress, and with new faces EVERY Election cycle. McCain is a war hero, nothing more, nothing less.
“John McCain suffered a terrible time as a POW. For that he gets credit. Since then, especially of late, his political stance has not been ‘for the best good of the Nation'” and he has been given a pass on it all BECAUSE of his terrible time as a POW.
yes, it happened. and yes, it sucked. but it does not act as a get out of jail free card, and i’m tired of folks looking the other way because he can’t lift his arms above his shoulders. it’s an integrity thing, and I count him as guilty too. and I’m also going to say the same thing about his brain tumor too. you hold him accountable and put his feet to the fire, don’t just go along to get along simply because he had a rough time. I expect more from a serviceman, even if he did become a politician.
there is plenty of other evidence out there for McCain’s lack of faithfulness to the country, but it seems to all be since he took off his zoom bag and put on pin stripes. I am curious as to who exactly decided to start peddling this trash around; is it older than his presidential bid? I can’t seem to recall seeing it before then, but I can’t be certain of that.
Frankie, I should’ve posted that I made a slight edit to your quote.
Well said Atkron, we should always follow the truth, regardless of how we feel about the people involved.
As a side note, I seem to remember hearing somewhere that part of the problem that day, specifically with the ordinance cooking off, was that much of it was 500-1000 lb iron bombs, left over from WW II, that used an explosive that was more sensitive to heat, and less stable than what’s used in modern weapons. Do you know it this is true or not?
I’ve read somewhere – in a source that appeared authoritative – that the ordnance was old (I can’t remember if it was WW2 or Korean War vintage). Source indicated that the ordnance was indeed more sensitive to heat and thus prone to cook-off in a fire – and had been stored under conditions that exacerbated this tendency. Ship’s Captain was apparently aware, but under serious pressure to launch on schedule and thus authorized use – with tragic results.
Don’t have time to search for the source at present. Will try to do so later and post link.
Yes, there is a good section on the WIKI that states there was a delivery of bombs that were from 1953 delivered from a ship just prior to that day.
The bombs were in such poor condition ( rust, etc) that the ordnance officer tried to flat out reject them and the AO guys wanted nothing to do with them.
The CO tried to have them replaced but was told there was nothing else available in time for that mission.
There was talk of simply jettisoning them off the side, but it was decided to simply store them in an area of the flight deck and reluctantly use them fir the mission.
I saw this same meme on as friends time line and quickly posted the truth and a link to the article.
According to this source, the first bomb to cook off was a M117 750 pound bomb loaded with Composition B:
‘The USS FORRESTAL (CVA-59) fire and munition explosions’
http://www.insensitivemunitions.org/history/the-uss-forrestal-cva-59-fire-and-munition-explosions/
‘[…]
Though serious in itself, the initial fire was not catastrophic. However, only ninety seconds after the fire started a 750-pound M117 bomb loaded with Composition B detonated killing or seriously wounding most of the fire fighters. The detonation ruptured the flight deck spilling fuel into the hangar deck below. As the fire progressed, more detonations followed.
[…].’
According to what I’ve been able to find via Internet research, the M117 bomb was a Korean War era weapon, and Composition B was a common explosive in the 1940s-1950s, and it is more sensitive to heat than more modern explosives that are used in aviation ordnance.
carriers didn’t have flush deck AFFF systems or Hangar Bay water curtain capabilities….many innovations now taken for granted simply hadn’t been invented at the time of the conflagration
And, as noted before, the AFFF that was applied and doing its job was mistakenly washed overboard by inexperienced fire crews, causing many of the fires to reflash.
true…the firefighters left were inexperienced… because the primary fireteam had been wiped out. Brave MFers were engaged valiantly in the operation and…BOOOM
I have heard stories about old ordnance being used during Vietnam. Personally, I wouldn’t doubt it.
But look at it another way, when I was on FID in 1989-90…there were Phoenix Missiles in the bomb farm (STBD side of the Island) that were as old as me. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw the date of manufacture on the part number / serial number placard.
Wasn’t the USS Iowa turret explosion caused in part by using powder bags that dated to WWII?
I will have to defer to a Gunner’s Mate, or at least someone with more knowledge.
If I recall the articles of the time, the Iowa gun turret explosion is believed to have been caused by incorrect use of the ram. It has two settings, projectile and powder.
Projectile setting has great force, to move a 1900-2700 pound shell, and longer throw to punch it far enough into the barrel to leave room for the powder charge.
Powder setting is much less forceful, and shorter.
If you ram projo twice, it is highly likely to set off a charge.
Found it:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion
Yeah, not surprising at all, and in general, nothing wrong with it, use up the old stuff first. I didn’t mean it as an accusation, just like i said, getting all the facts to understand all of the reasons the incident progressed the way it did.. Big incidents like that (or firefighter line of duty deaths, etc.) are rarely due to just one factor, it’s usually a chain of events that leads to the final outcome
I think that in most major disasters (not counting things like tornadoes, floods, and hurricanes) are due to a series of failures in judgment and procedure. A cumulative effect which results in a major tragedy.
For an example watch “Run Away” from a few years back about the railway disaster with Denzel Washington. A “cascade” of small mistakes put an unmanned freight train on the main tracks in a busy Eastern rail corridor. From a true story.
I have said here before and I will say it again.
Thank you for service McCain now drop dead.
I would like add to that….
Take Susan Collins and Hangus King with you.
At leas Senator Jeff [The] Flake has decided to go on his own, I honestly think that John McCain should have gone to the proverbial pasture after his failed Presidential bid, it was his election to lose and that he did.
The same idjits that post that fake meme about McCain are also the same ones that think the USS John S McCain is named after him. The ship was actually named after his father and grandfather -both Admirals.
Thank you Chief; I had always thought it was named for the senator.
Don’t mention the USCG Cutter Trump around them. It was named after William Trump who was awarded the Silver Star in WWII. The name alone could cause snow flakes to melt.
TOO LATE, I am SO gonna steal that and use it on my liberal snowflake sister and the clique she hangs out with!! 😈
Yepper!
Thank you for that tidbit of info.
I am going use it on my girlfriend that suffers from TDS. Harsh medicine to swallow for sure.
I am not a big McCain fan but I respect his military service. I find it really sad that these fake memes continue to go around the Internet, especially Facebook. I get frustrated with the people that call “fake news” constantly then continue to pass that fake shit along by re-posting the memes. I voted for McCain when he ran for POTUS because the alternative really sucked. I do believe it is time for him to just retire, enjoy what little time he has left.
Crap, reported this comment by accident. Wanted to say ditto.
Atkron: BZ!
Well written/well said; thanks for posting this. I, too, am sick and tired of this bogus story about McCain being at fault for the fire aboard the USS Forrestal. As you stated, anyone who has actually worked the flight deck and conducted Naval Aviation ordnance/arming evolutions ashore or at sea will instantly recognize how ridiculous the false narrative blaming McCain really is.
A while back, I had a discussion here on the pages of TAH with an individual who clearly had zero experience in Naval Aviation, yet he insisted that McCain was at fault for the Forrestal fire because he had induced a ‘wet start’ in his A-4 that had caused a loud ‘bang’, which in turn ‘startled’ the F-4 Phantom pilot and caused the F-4 pilot to fire the Zuni rocket across the flight deck into the A-4(s). I tried to explain the detailed realities of shipboard aviation ordnance/arming operations (including the role of the Plane Captain, Aviation Ordnancemen, cockpit switchology, and the use of the Master Arm switch) and the hazards of stray voltage during aviation ordnance evolutions, but the individual would not be dissuaded from the false narrative of McCain being at fault. He would simply not accept the fact that USN/USMC aircraft do not sit chained down and parked on the side of the flight deck with engines turning, ordnance systems fully energized, and Master Arm switches in the ‘On’ position. He apparently believed that an F-4 pilot can fire ordnance anytime/anywhere, kind of like pulling the trigger on a double-action pistol. To say that it was a frustrating discussion would be putting it mildly, and I wish that you would have been able to roll in hot during that discussion in order to help me explain how things really work on the flight deck.
Thanks again for posting this.
On top of all those safety devices you mentioned, I would add the Ground Safety Switch, which disables firing of any ordnance while the aircraft is weight-on-wheels.
Yes, many people don’t know about WOW switches…but hey the truth doesn’t help them feel. We have to use words and phrases so the people feel, not think.
Oh, so that scene in “Jewel of the Nile” when the hero is machine-gunning folks from a fighter jet on the ground … can’t happen?
Same as Iron Eagle, where the kid launches a Maverick missile while it’s sitting on the runway.
I mean, if you believe a 16-year old kid can fly an F-16, you’ll believe anything.
While not really likely – it may not be impossible either.
My first FIL was already a licensed flight instructor but too young to enlist in WWII. He enlisted on the birthday he became eligible, and they made him a flight instructor for the Air Corps. He always grumbled about not getting to fight, but by the time he got in, they needed trained instructors more than trained fighter pilots.
He did get to fly jets in Korea.
Thanks Mick, I would have been happy to have your six.
Thanks, Atkron.
A friend was on the Forrestal that day. He never wanted to say too much about the fire beyond the fact that he was on the deck during it all, and felt lucky to have been there as opposed to other places. Still, he suffered injury.
Unfortunately, nobody on the internet has ever let anything as simple as the truth prevent them from making outrageous, unfounded accusations that further their pet political causes.
See also: FDR knew the Japanese were planning to bomb Pearl Harbor and let it happen because he wanted to bring us into the war; Truman only dropped A-bombs on the Japanese because he hated yellow people; Oh and of course, 9/11 was an inside job… 😉
Not apropos of McCain, but FDR committed several actions which were acts of war before we got into it. See Neutrality patrols, and his authorization for Navy ships to engage U-boats on sight. Don’t know if he knew about Pearl Harbor or not, but doubt it, because he wanted to get into it with the Germans, and was probably not paying much attention to the Japanese.
Very well done, Atkron, but the gossipy stuff won’t go away, no matter what anyone does to correct it.
Believing the baloney is easier than believing the truth, because the truth gives nothing to use for gossip.
Thanks Ex-PH2…I’m a technical writer, and nowhere near as eloquent as you and many others on here.
Your approval sincerely means a lot.
Well, then, from now on, when I have technical stuff to write about, like weapons used for invasions by space aliens, I’m sending it to you first!! 😉
Thanks Jonn for allowing me to share this with your readers.
This false story is like Herpes. It’s like someone wants to ‘Swift Boat’ him like (justifiably) was done to the Masshole Kerry. But instead of using evidence they are using the people’s ignorance.
About a month ago I was trying to explain to some guy claiming to be a former Marine exactly what I wrote in this post. He claimed a Master Guns of his confirmed that McCain started the fire.
When I was all done, he commented the following: Wow, Master Guns was right they covered that one up really good.
I had to put my phone down, before I gave it a flying lesson after reading his response.
Yes, I would classify this as a variation of the “big lie” technique.
In the “big lie” technique you tell a lie so obvious and over-the-top that people believe you because no reasonable person would make up a story like that. “Yes, I received the Medal of Honor for my actions with the Army during the Invasion of Grenada in 1983” (a real example, BTW.)
This variation I would call the “TECHNICAL big lie.” It’s where you throw a lot of slang and jargon like “wet start” and people just assume that if they know that kind of slang, they must be “insiders” who know the “real deal.”
Just so long as you don’t bad-mouth Ted Stampley, the fellow who spread the stories about McCain. He’s Saint Stampley to Vietnam veterans, for some reason that escapes me.
I had never heard the name before, had to go look him up.
Would I be correct in assuming that this link is about the same Ted Stampley, Jonn?
http://www.miafacts.org/prankster.htm
Carriers seemed to collect lovely handles, The Flaming Forrestal, Colliding Kennedy, etc. We were on the Dope Boat, USS Independence in 77-78. Half the MARDET was in the brig and the other half guarded them, then rotated.
Sea School included a one day trip to the Navy FF School. That had high entertainment value. Class III firefighting was unpleasant. We probably had to be FF qualified due to the above event. Guarding special weapons on the flight deck during OPS was always hairy. Part of the briefing was if you caught to hot a gust drop weapon and grab a tie down before getting blown overboard.
One nickname I heard from a retired CPO buddy who served on the Forrestal was “Forrest Fire.”
and our sister ship The “Sorry Sara”
USS Saratoga CV-60
Christ, if I started giving discussing submarine nicknames, we’d be here for days.
One of my Uncle’s was aboard the Kearsarge (the aircraft carrier one) in the mid-60’s) he always called it the “Queerbarge”.
(Runs for cover expecting lots of flak from the Navy guys!)
It’s only queer when you hit the pier.
…you forgot the Danger Ranger…
Stinking Lincoln, Shitty Hawk
USS Pubic Mound[Puget Sound]
USS Braindamaged [Bainbridge]
All Stationed in Nofuck, Vagina
Shitty Kitty
USS GUADALCADITCH (USS Guadalcanal LPH-7)
USS INCHWORM (USS Inchon LPH-12)
USS BEDPAN (USS Saipan LHA-2)
USS TRASHVILLE (USS Nashville LPD-13)
I always wondered if people that served with McCain after ‘Nam thought he was a bad luck charm. I mean, he was there when the Forrestal went up and then goes down over the north.
I’ve seen the videos of the fire before, but never those after photos. Amazing they were able to control it and keep the boat afloat. That the ship was refit and served for decades more is also amazing to this landsman.
I think that the time in the Hanoi Hilton may have done something to McCain’s (D/R) Head. I met his dad Admiral McCain while walking back from the Trade Winds EM club to the OKIE 3. Seems like we ignored his staff car and he got out and we got an asses chewed out. He came aboard with that pet gator he kept in a box and the OOD tried to pet it and the gator bit his hand.
Atkron, thank you for this story and video Sir. My Army type question was answered at about the 12 minute mark, when a Destroyer came along side and used its water cannons to help, if that’s what they’re called.
God rest all those lost. Must have been a hell of a terrifying experience.
If you ever get a chance to go to the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola; the plaque I mentioned, along with Forrestal’s stern nameplate are on display.
I suspect that McCain succumbed to the corrupting influences of DC. I saw this in Bob Kerry (D-Neb). Got elected as a moderate democrat. His hero status due to a loss of a foot in Nam was a plus to the electorate. His first two terms were reasonably good and principled, but clearly he had become corrupted by his third term. The Nebraska electorate, outside of Omaha, is quite politically savvy and tossed him.
In order to get anything done, politicians have to regularly compromise their principles. Once you lose your principles, it is down hill from there to the pit of corruption. It is just human nature.
“Politicians and diapers need to be changed often and for the same reason.” – Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain)
Great article and thread!
I was a #1 Nozzleman, OSL and Rep 5 Locker Leader and an Enlisted Locker Officer.
Trial by Fire … always on my mind.
Note: and EOOW/EDO …
I was in prototype when the Bonefish fire happened.
Believe me, they hammered lessons learned from that my entire time there and we’ll after I hit my first boat.
You do NOT screw around with the potential energy a submarine battery contains.
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A couple of thoughts folks. I was there; O-3 level, amidships, watching the PLAT until it went black. Then I had a peripheral role with the investigative team for the four weeks of transit back from Subic to Norfolk. The investigators thought they knew the most likely cause but it wasn’t until the Enterprise had a similar disaster several years later that it became clear. It was our 4th day on YS; our first Alpha strike with more than the usual number of acft armed for the launch. A huffer (yellow gear, starting unit) was parked so that it’s very hot exhaust blew directly on a Zuni pod on an F-4 on the stpd side. The Zuni ignited and flew to the port side and struck an A-4’s fuel tank…from there on the disaster couldn’t be stopped. The A-4 may have been MCain’s acft, I can’t remember. I see the internet uses the term “electrical anomaly” as the ignition source….I won’t argue the point, but ever since we made sure huffer exhaust didn’t blow on ordnance we haven’t had a problem like this. As an aside the F-4 pilot was adamant that all of his ordnance switches were “safe” when the rocket left his wing. (knew him well, we were both on CAG-17 staff). When all was done it was clear that the MK-65 (M117) series bombs that McNamara brought in from storage in the Arizona desert had gone off high order (as did the Shrikes, and if memory serves the Sidewinders and Sparrows); the newer Mk-80 series bombs cooked off low order; external drop tanks were ruptured adding their fuel to the conflagration. The high order explosions killed most of the fire crew responding; worse, their hoses were shredded; the monitors you see around the flight deck catwalks were added as a result of the fire. We had 134 dead and a larger number wounded; a significant number were from the F-4 squadrons “night check” crews in berthing on the O-3 level aft. Explosions ripped open the 2″ armor plate of the flight deck and the flaming jet fuel… Read more »
It’s good to hear your perspective. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Thank you for clarifying sir, I really appreciate hearing from you.
For the record, those huffers had a very hot exhaust that kept me mighty warm in the wintertime Med.
Thanks for the input, Haze Gray. We appreciate it.
You know, since I slept on it. I seem to recall stories/rumors about the huffer exhaust being the cause when I was on FID.
But, I honestly forgot about that.
I’ve heard about the huffer exhaust numerous times before as well.
For some reason, over time ‘stray voltage’ has also crept into the discussion of causal factors, even in official Navy historical accounts:
‘Witness to History: USS Forrestal Fire’
http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=2967
‘[…]
Mowad was a young lieutenant aboard the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal (CV 59) on July 29, 1967, when a stray Zuni rocket from an F-4 Phantom, triggered by stray voltage, set off a chain of events that left 134 dead and more than 300 injured.
[…].’
I watched a documentary one time a few years ago regarding the fire, about the Admiral that headed up the investigation.
Apparently he’s the one that saw reflected flash of the rocket shooting across deck in the PLAT cameraman’s protective screen in the footage.
The details are all kind of foggy for me now, but he’s eventually the one that deduced stray voltage as the official cause.
From what I do remember, the man put in a lot of time and effort into his investigation.
Your comment is the first, the only one I have read, that provides specifics.
May I ask you a few questions:
Why was McCain even part of the story? Why the wet-start stuff?
Is there possible credibility on that?
Who would bring that up if no cred?
Was McCain quickly removed from the ship?
If so, why?
Did McCain have a history on that ship of wet starts? How significant is the risk of a wet start causing a flame to ignite a rocket behind it? Where was McCain during the exact hours this occurred?
I don’t think you will persuade those who have something against McCain that this incident wasn’t primarily his fault. I’ve been seeing it pop up on forums and YouTube for years.
Unfortunately, some lies just seem to go on forever, and sometimes the truth never seems to “get its boots on.”
Interesting.
Why is “wet start” even mentioned at all, given the 2 reasons you provide, pulled safety pins and stray voltage? Heck, wet start gets more attention in your recap than either of the alleged causes. Why do people, people who were there and have no axe to grind, allege wet start as the cause for the initial rocket firing?
Please give a detailed explanation of exactly how the specific rocket fired due to pulled safety pins and stray voltage.
Odd, no other rockets on any other planes on that deck at that specific moment in time are noted for having had similar conditions.
Your comment is the first, the only one I have read, that provides specifics.
May I ask you a few questions:
Why was McCain even part of the story? Why the wet-start stuff?
Is there possible credibility on that?
Who would bring that up if no cred?
Was McCain quickly removed from the ship?
If so, why?
Did McCain have a history on that ship of wet starts? How significant is the risk of a wet start causing a flame to ignite a rocket behind it? Where was McCain during the exact hours this occurred?