Questions Raised About an Icon
This has already appeared in other places, so it probably should be noted here too.
Apparently, questions have been raised about – and an investigation begun regarding – the awards and decorations of a rather famous figure from Vietnam. The individual? The late CSM Basil L. Plumley.
BLUF: per the Army, it appears his being a 3x recipient of the CIB cannot be substantiated from documentation contained in his official records. The same is also apparently true about him being a 2x CIB recipient, or having received multiple awards of the Silver Star and a third award of the Bronze Star Medal with “V” device. My interpretation of what I’ve read is that at least some of these latter awards do appear on one or more of his DD214s, but that there is no other documentation for them in his OMPF.
You can read the details for yourself if you desire. Here is an article that covers the matter in some detail. Here’s a link to the Army memo detailing a review of CSM Plumley’s OMPF by US Army HRC – which indicates that some of the awards listed on CSM Plumley’s DD214s cannot be validated. And here’s the photo that apparently sparked the review.
And yes, CSM Plumley is one of those listed on the 3x CIB list formerly displayed by the National Infantry Museum. I don’t know if he was one of the original 230 or was later added by museum staff.
As I said above, the matter apparently is under investigation. I’ll post a follow-up if/as new info becomes known.
Category: Who knows
Wow… I hope that the accusations are false, but I have a bad feeling about this.
Aggreed.
Interesting, I had never heard of this before but I guess it’s been brewing for a while.
Looking at the photo the first thing that jumped out at me was the lack of KW campaign decorations. I’ve never seen a 3x CIB recipient who didn’t have, at the very least, the blue and white UN ribbon.
Apparently, part of the issue is the man who investigated this believes that SGM Plume served during Korea but not in Korea during the war.
OT: Jonn mentioned Infantry Museum at Ft Benning. GO THERE! Amazing facility, Hollywood helped with some of the exhibits and they are amazing.
Jonn? (smile)
And yes: the National Infantry Museum is indeed worth the trip.
Author! Author!
Oh. Sorry. But maybe Jonn is Hondo and I got confused?
Hondo is really Hondo, New Mexico drove through it yesterday
??
Ich bin keine Stadt in New Mexico. Aber ich bin dort gewesen. Es ist ein wunderschöner Ort.
I know ^^^^ ??
And that it is
Billy the Kid
100% agreed. Hit the museum, watch some lawn darts jump into Fryar DZ, and if you have time, run over to the Andersonville Civil War museum (about an hour east).
I miss being one of those lawn darts.
AirBORNE!
All the Way!
And then some
There are no ex-paratroopers, just ones off jump status.
Absolutely a must-see! And if you ever get invited to a Ranger School graduation (and don’t have your own Ranger tab), GO!! They put on an AMAZING show before they actually present the tabs to the graduates.
“”I just want the correct information out there because there are so many people that are really heroes, and it is so frustrating when they give the hero status to someone who was anything but,” [Brian Siddall] said.”
Anything but?
“Brian Siddall, an independent researcher whose father and uncle served during World War II….” Yeah, well, thanks Brian. We owe you a great debt for your father’s and uncle’s reported service. What pisses me off is that quote(“…and it is so frustrating when they give the hero status to someone who was anything but.” Fuck you Siddall. Plumley is dead and gone. He is no less a hero if ALL of his his CIBs were taken from him.
No one can argue the heroism of SGM Plume or the accomplishments of ADM Boorda, of you remember him. I sincerely hope they are able to show that this is all a misunderstanding or lost records, but if not he will still always be a hero and a human being. As we are all capable of issues and mistakes.
Plumley…. darned autocorrect. And CSM… SORRY
Admiral Boorda was a good, honorable man, who went from E-1 to O-10. He chose to end his life rather than live with the thought that he was considered a poser by others. He could not fathom the thought of disrespecting his beloved enlisted Sailors. I’ve read articles suggesting both that he was and was not authorized to wear certain awards. I believe the consensus is that he was not authorized. Was he aware of this oversight? I don’t know.
He was wearing the “V” on some of his ribbons, which wasn’t include in the citation.
No autopsy released. 2 gunshots to the chest. Was not a member of the secret hat silly handshake club. Refused to run dope on his watch. Took down a sick cabal of perverted “higher up” officers. Believed officers should be taken from the best stock and not just the “egalitarian” class. Was for scientific discovery and adventure. One of the few Jews that believed in honour.
He was murdered.
Whoa, whoa, easy there.
I am a jew and I believe in honour. So does many many, MANY, of my people.
Yea, that line kind of got to me. I get it, that if he inflated his junk, he deserves the scorn. They may even be changing the CSM’s grave marker. We’ve seen it before. But to use the words ‘really heros’ and ‘anything but’ is pretty fucked up.
Agreed. That seemed out of line to me, too.
And just who is this little piss ant to besmirch what was a stellar career, even if a few details got lost in translation, something which has not yet been proven as fact?
What a grade A JERK.
I hope he didn’t do the same crap that so many other losers do, but, he will still be a hero in my eyes.
He served Ltc Moore well and did more than his part for God and Country.
Rest easy SGM, you still have my respect, it is an honor to have served with soldiers like you.
I hope with some of the hand written rec’s that where done back then that is is some sort of bo-bo
What a Icon !!!!!!
Interesting to note Galloway has no love for Sidall.
Take what you will from that.
I take a lot from it. I know that some folks here, for their own reasons, don’t genuflect at the sound of Gallow’s name but he knows what the hell he’s talking about when it comes to Plumley.
“Did you say Jerry Callow?”
Galloway. Dammit.
Nooo Jerry Gallo, wait, he is dead….
Mr. Siddall,
CSM Basil L. Plumley is in fact, a hero. Period. Not, “anything but”, as you so disgustingly put it. His status a a hero is not in question. Never was and never will be, by me or anyone who understand the term. He served in more combat than you can imagine. If you had ever been, “a soldier once…and young”, you might have more respect for someone who was, and who did more for his country in his lifetime given in service to it than you do.
Your campaign to find the truth of CSM Basil L. Plumley, rings more like a vendetta than a seeking of the truth. I would imagine, given the fine service of your father and uncle, that they would not be pleased with your efforts.
Whatever the outcome of this matter, my respect for CSM Basil L. Plumley will never lessen. My respect for you though is none.
Rest in peace CSM Basil L. Plumley and thank you for your service.
Very nicely put, and I concur.
Well done, Sparks!
Yeah, Siddall claims to have talked with Plumley, via Skype, for all of 7 minutes. The year prior to his death, in 2011, when he was 91. I wonder who set up the Skype chat for CSM Plumley?
First, is Siddall to be believed? Like others have said, it reads like he’s conducting a vendetta against Plumley. Did he really talk to him? We only have his word for it.
Amen, Sparks.
Sure, get the record straight if there is something to be righted but disparaging Plumley is not the way to go about it, especially from a guy whose valor is by association only.
Siddall does seem to go overboard. But as you noted, he does bring up a potentially valid issue. I’ll reserve judgement on the issue until far more information is available.
Most of the time, writing and contributing articles here at TAH is very enjoyable.
This wasn’t such a time.
I agree and I understand your dilemma Hondo. I just can’t think of CSM Plumley without the urge to come to attention.
SgtMaj Plumley’s heroism speaks for itself and cannot be elided by any outcome of this investigation. However…..if it’s true, shouldn’t the record be set straight? Do we not expect as much from a hero as from any of the rest of us? It’s not as if there haven’t been individuals with outstanding service records who nevertheless embellished their accomplishments. In many ways, those are the saddest cases of all.
I agree with those of you who don’t care for the smug attitude of this guy, but however much of a jerk he may be it’s important to determine what the truth is. Just my two cents, and I mean no disrespect to the memory of Basil Plumley. As I said, his service speaks for itself.
Have to agree. Truth is truth, and it’s damned important.
Yep, fully agree as my previous posts will attest to. And many, many well respected individuals have been ousted on TAH and similar. If true, he gets ousted like anybody else. Some things may be oversights, but 3 CIB’s when potentially only rating one is not an oversight in my opinion. Nor are unearned awards, and V devices. I’ll await the FOIA I’m sure is coming, and will be scrutinized by competent personnel. But, I’m already feeling the sadness.
“Doug] Sterner said he doesn’t see the point in bringing up the discrepancies about Plumley, a man he calls a “genuine hero” because he earned a Silver Star in battle. He said he knows of hundreds of cases in which soldiers have been awarded Silver Stars or other valor awards and the records cannot be found.
“I don’t see the point in trying to be so historically accurate we destroy a genuine hero,” Sterner said.”
As I told Jonn when I initially brought the story up to him a few days ago (Before he forwarded it to Hondo)…It seems this guy has a Hard-On for the CSM; and I cannot figure out why.
Did he, himself, serve in ANY capacity? Or, is he just using his Uncle and father as his qualifier for the ‘truth’?
All I know, is that this is fucked.
^Word.
Just like so many other millenial types these days, “I know what the military is like, my father’s brother’s cousin’s former roommate served.”
I’d be curious to see how many others this Sidall has gone after and done deep investigation into.
So if Siddell served you would be OK with this? As to Siddell’s service or anything else – All I can say is “Who cares”. As a previous comment stated, we need competent and complete investigation to get to the bottom of this. Looking at that photo of the CSM with his ribbons, I now ask myself why he wore no Korean War related ribbons, yet wore a star on CIB indicating Korean war action as an Infantryman. Someone needs to go beyond the OMPF and look for his name on 187th rosters, etc. His record has him absent from an entire war! And even places him in a stateside unit during that time frame. This is messed up.
Stolen Valor had a post on Facebook the other day that which is enlightening.
https://www.facebook.com/StolenValor/?fref=nf
Didn’t work like expected so you have to swcroll down to May 17 entries.
Thank you for the link CC Senior. It adds a lot to the story.
This is interesting, from the 5/17 9:56AM entry:
“The “researcher”, who himself has never even served one day in the military based all of his findings on only stuff he could find through a FOIA request. Now in my years of doing this I can tell you WWII was one of the worst times for record keeping. Not only that, but if you went over as say a combat engineer and someone wanted you to be an 11B, guess what you were an 11B! You didn’t come back to the US to change MOS’s! You were then an Infantryman and could have them earned a CIB! So this researcher had no clue how the military worked, decided he would go after Plumley.
Not to mention this Brian Siddell also has a personal vendetta against Joe Galloway and LTC Moore, which I also expressed to the reporter before he published this story.”
I would like to know more about this vendetta, if there is one, and what generated it in the first place. If this is some sort of personal angst-ridden business, it needs to have daylight shining right dead center on it.
The article at that site does shed some light. But it also contains an erroneous implication.
Specifically, the article implies that the 1973 NPRC Records fire could be the source of the issue, and that Siddall’s research was adversely affected (and thus is incomplete) due to the fire.
Siddall’s research may well incomplete, but if so the NPRC Records Fire is virtually certainly not the reason why.
The NPRC records fire occurred on 12-13 July 1973. Personnel records affected by the NPRC fire were:
(1) Army Records: Personnel discharged November 1, 1912 to January 1, 1960 – 80% loss
(2) USAF Records: Personnel discharged September 25, 1947 to January 1, 1964 (with names alphabetically after Hubbard, James E.) – 75% loss
CSM Plumley served continuously for 32 years 9 months and 1 day – from his enlistment on 31 March 1942 to his retirement on 31 December 1974. I am reasonably sure his OMPF would not have been sent there
618 months prior to his retirement. The NPRC Records fire happened almost618 months before he retired.Good point but the fire happened some 18 months prior to the CSM’s retirement. (July 1973 – Dec 1974)
Correct. Mental math misfire on my part. Now corrected above.
Dunno. Siddall might have a valid point about the Korea CIB, but the one for the World War II CIB seems to fall into a gray area. If what Plumley was doing was FA scout, the job was probably similar to the later 11-Delta MOS for recon. He was also jump qualified while engaged in two glider-borne operations.
Unless I happened to be in a frisky mood to get my stupid face punched, I don’t ever remember being inclined to call a recon guy a candy ass because he wasn’t real infantry.
My own sense of what was going on at the time was also that airborne troops would typically rather take their chances with a parachute drop instead of riding along as a passenger in a brick with wings. Something Siddall apparently agrees with.
I agree with the comments about Sidall but the points about the CIB and combat jumps have bothered me ever since I read the Sergeant Major’s obituary. It does appear that he was jump qualified but the claim of four combat jumps does appear dubious. A member of my 82nd Chapter (now passed away) was jump qualified but had to ride a glider into Holland, not by his choice. On the Bronze Stars, it is my understanding that prior to Vietnam Bronze Stars were only awarded for valor so no V device was used. And if you have a Bronze Star with a V other awards that are not for valor entitle the recipient to an oak leaf cluster on the one, not a second ribbon a V. I do hope they are able to clear this up favorably.
Hope this Wikipedia entry helps. I didn’t check out all the references cited at the bottom. The history portion is interesting, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Star_Medal
BSMs without Vs were awarded during WWII: http://www.audiemurphy.com/decorations005.htm
Silly me, I meant to say BSMs with Vs were awarded during WWII.
It can become confusing. he wording for the BSM/without device mentions “Ground operations against hostile forces” That can confuse the folks at home and may imply more than the actual facts.
Yes, his combat jumps (said to have been with the 505th) have been questioned for years. Siddall was not the first to say this. Google an interesting discussion on this on the Trigger Time blog. It has a few entries (years ago) and a curious entry by someone who actually called him at his house to offer to put him on the 505th PIR newsletter list. He got quite vague with his response.
His awards are out of precedence, it should be the silver star, legion of merit, bronze star, purple heart, air medal and army commendation medal. Looks like someone made his rack and he did not pay a lot of attention to the rack. I know that the precedence has changed over the years, but what I listed is for the present. I hope everything comes out ok, because it is hell getting old, especially when you are not around to defend yourself.
You’re correct about the SS and LOM – those are reversed on CSM Plumley’s ribbon rack.
While today the PH is immediately after the BSM in order of precedence, that was not the case when CSM Plumley retired.
Prior to 1985, the Purple Heart was indeed immediately above the GCM in precedence order. The 1986 Defense Authorization Act changed that, elevating the PH to its current position in order of precedence for US military decorations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Heart#History
CSM Plumley retired in 1974. Other than having the LOM and SS reversed, the ribbon rack appears to me to be in correct precedence order as of when he retired.
Except for (now please don’t beat me on the head too much for this) the American Defense Service Medal Ribbon included in the rack.
Since he didn’t enlist until 31 Mar 42, I don’t believe he’s authorized to have been wearing one of those.
I say again, don’t beat me too bad for saying that.
He might still rate the medal, Claw – if he had any reserve or national guard service prior to 7 Dec 1941 AND (1) spent at least one day on active duty prior to 7 Dec 1941 (training counted), and (2) later enlisted and served on a tour that was of at least 1 year’s duration. We know (2) is true; (1) may well be true also.
Many young men of his age group served in the Guard or Reserve during the depression because there literally wasn’t much other employment available, or to earn a bit of extra income to help support the family. He was born in 1920, so it’s feasible he did. Knew personally of a case where a Navy guy legitimately rated the medal under similar circumstances (USNR service involving >10 days temporary active duty in 1940 or 1941 who later enlisted or was called-up to full-time active duty in 1943).
Regardless, it’s in the correct position on the rack based on precedence – which was what my comment above said. (smile)
Yep, you’re right. Didn’t think about him being in the Guard or Reserve prior to enlistment for active duty. My bad.
That’s why you’re the Hondo and I’m just a lowly minion./smile
BTW, you’re not John Havlicek, are ya?
Only reason I knew is that I knew someone years ago who had the ADSM – and had acquired it that way. I did check the current sources I could find to confirm, however.
Nope – I’m nowhere that as athletically talented or good-looking as Havlicek, so I’m definitely not him.
I also didn’t steal the ball. (smile)
As to that ribbon rack in the West Point 2010 Photo: The backing behind those ribbons is not the metal bars but mounted on cloth the same color as the dress blues. That means it was prepared beforehand, not assembled there. The only exception seems to be the Legion of Merit Ribbon, which seems to be added. This would account for why it is out of order.
Just a question, thought you couldn’t wear the Arrow device on the National Defense Service ribbon and no more than one arrowhead may be worn on a medal and service ribbon.
Found it, its a cluster but not sure if that is correct also, I thought only stars.
Today, it would be incorrect – a bronze 3/16″ service star (same as a campaign star for a campaign medal) is now used on the NDSM to show 2nd and subsequent awards.
Not sure what was used on the NDSM to show 2nd and subsequent awards in 1974, though. And it might not have been the same as today. The Army changed the Air Medal from OLCs to numerals during Vietnam, so there’s precedent for the Army changing what device is used on a particular decoration to show second and subsequent awards.
The OLC was the correct device to use on the NDSM at the time of the CSM’s retirement.
Thanks. Thought that might possibly have been the case, but didn’t have either personal knowledge or access to the appropriate AR from that era to be certain.
Hondo,
Am I correct in assuming that a DD-214 is assumed to be correct as it (ideally) is created from original source documents? If that is the case, then evidence is required to change the document. Absence of and order, 40+ years later does not meet the standard of “clear and convincing evidence”.
CSM Plumley’s DD-214 showed that he was a 2 times recipient of the CIB. Unless someone can show me where he is wearing a 2 star (3 times award) CIB on active duty, I think we have to overlook the picture of a 90 year old man who likely had the uniform put together by someone else.
As for the award of the CIB in WWII. The 1943 and 1944 circular which authorized the CIB only specified that someone had to serve as an infantryman in an infantry unit (the MOS requirement did not occur until 1960 or so). It is entirely likely that the 82nd ABN was pretty liberal in interpretation given that units were wildly dispersed and fighting as infantry during the battle of Normandy. The issue of a WWII CIB would have also given him the BSM w/ V that is also not to be found.
“It is entirely likely that the 82nd ABN was pretty liberal in interpretation given that units were wildly dispersed and fighting as infantry during the battle of Normandy.”
Luddite, the 101st was just as liberal in Vietnam. I was a 54EP, a battalion CBR NCO, but sent to a line company to serve as a fire team leader. The day I “qualified” for my CIB, my platoon was a couple of kliks from the actual fighting but per regs, all in the company got it even the young CBR NCO. Trust me, I later earned it, but not the day awarded. However, had I broken a leg and been evacuated stateside, I would have had the right to wear a CIB without ever hearing a shot fired. I seem to remember we had a secondary MOS and mine would have been 11B if we did. BTW, I have a copy of the orders from that day.
So, per my DD-214 someone unfamiliar with the situation could question my CIB as well. There’s a lot goes on in a soldier’s service that can’t be necessarily read in a DD-214. Combine that with sometimes sloppy record-keeping and give-a-shit clerks and I think we should tread lightly sometimes with making firm determinations from 214’s.
Fully understand, as someone could question my CIB if they only had the DD 214 and a copy of my ORB/assignment history.
L4C: official records are indeed presumed correct unless clear evidence indicates they are in error. However, here what may be the case – and I’m making an inference from the wording of the Army memo linked above; I have no direct knowledge – is that the official records in question are his OMPF on file at NPRC, and that OMPF is not internally consistent. That inconsistency could be due to either omissions (of documents that should be there but are not) or admin error(s) on one or more of the documents contained therein (the DD214s). I believe the Army investigations’ purpose will be to ascertain which of those is the case.
Again: I have no direct knowledge of the details of what’s happening, and I could easily be wrong. I don’t have enough facts or access to primary source documentation and era references to make other than an educated guess regarding what’s going on.
The absence of an awards order in the OMPF is not in and of itself evidence.
In order to prove that he was not awarded a CIB or other WWII awards it will be necessary to account for each and every awards order issued by the 82nd between the time of his arrival 1942 and the Division’s redeployment to CONUS in 1946, each and every aircraft manifest for three operations, and likely all division pay records. (As. Mr. Sidall makes money re-selling pdf copies of these types of records, it is reason to give me some pause, as the USG and us the taxpayers will be doing that research for him.)
While Mr. Sidall does have some evidence that the good CSM was with the 320th FA Glider in June 1944; however, some of the units soldier did in fact jump into D-Day according to the unit history. Additionally, Mr. Sidall’s research doesn’t account for the CSM’s earlier service in Sicily (including unit, position, etc.)
I don’t know why the CSM is wearing the American Defense Service Medal in the photo (again I believe someone else put the uniform together, as there are some other errors such as the upside down unit awards), as his service did occur during the qualifying period and its not listed on his DD-214.
I’m to young, but did the OMPF of 1974 include a DA photo? That would be interesting to review.
By the 1980s I’m pretty sure they did. Not sure about SCNCO OMPFs in the mid-1970s, though.
True. But that may not be the standard that’s used (categorically prove beyond possible doubt) in the investigation.
A copy of award orders should be in the OMPF. If they’re not, there’s no formal, cross-checkable proof that a claimed award is valid. And the ABCMR reputedly now won’t accept certificates only as proof of awards – they now apparently demand a copy of orders before they’ll order awards added to a soldier’s records.
As an aside: regarding the ABCMR, that’s a good thing. Certificates are easy to fake, and fake certificates are readily available for purchase – and they’re damned hard to cross-check against official records. Orders are also relatively easy to fake – but because they can be cross-checked against other official records, fake orders can be proven to be fakes.
It will be interesting to see how this one goes. I have no idea how it will turn out, what standard of proof will be used during the investigation, or whether “benefit of the doubt” will be granted.
We’ll all just have to wait and see.
I believe that the Army Board uses a “preponderance of evidence standard” (51% or more certain than not). For instance, if you were an infantryman in an infantry unit and had a certificate and a picture of the BN CDR pinning on your CIB the board would most likely rule in your favor that your DD 214 should read “awarded CIB”.
In this case, its likely that the Army has to meet the burden of proof if it desires to change the DD-214.
If Mr. Sidall wants to comb through the US Archives at his own time an expense to show that CSM Plumley doesn’t rate these awards, I’m OK with that. But, I have a problem with pushing the cost on to the tax payer.
#1) four jumps in WWII,
#2) + 1 with the 187th in Korea. (hotdrop behind enemy lines to capture NK gov’t fleeing north)
#3) plus LZ X-ray.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_L._Plumley
if you’re an infantryman doing infantry shit in your battalion circumstantially you get the CIB, it is a unit award. you technically don’t even have to fire a shot in the action as long as you were there with your battalion in action.
P 96 section 8-6: http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_8_22.pdf
F this whining pinko trying to defame a legend! I hope his silk panties chaff his well used third point of contact, and his WWII ancestors whoop his candy @$$ when meets them.
You need to re-read para 8-6 of the AR you cited.
The CIB is NOT a unit award. It is an individual award (technically a badge or tab), with specified criteria and restricted eligibility, that is awarded to qualifying individuals by-name on orders.
Wikipedia is not a reliable reference. Anyone can post anything on Wikipedia
An interesting footnote about that three-star CIB list: Two of the recipients, COL Melvin Garten and COL Joseph Wasco, served as battalion commanders of the same unit, 2d Battalion, 327th Airborne Infantry, 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne Division, in Vietnam. LTC Wasco succeeded LTC Garten after Garten was severely wounded when an IED detonated near his Jeep. I’m familiar with this history because LTC Garten was the BC who personally welcomed me to the battalion then promptly assigned me, a 54EP CBR NCO, to Bravo Company as a fire team leader because his line companies were short of NCO’s, as he tersely explained. Months later (and many pounds lighter) when LTC Wasco needed a CBR NCO to prepare for a field CMMI, I finally got my slot and served on his staff for the duration of my tour. I didn’t know Garten http://www.fayobserver.com/military/melvin-garten-army-s-most-decorated-colonel-dies/article_9fd4024b-0ffb-5c17-9f70-daa81ebf96c2.html except for that one meeting but I got to know Wasco fairly well, sharing a CP tent with him frequently for the next several months. He was a lean, mean, Airborne soldier, celebrity handsome, who would probably have made general had he not, like many of those “Old Army” types of that era, liked his adult beverages a bit too much. http://www.myersdurborawfh.com/obits/obituary.php?id=319332 There is another interesting historical intersect here in that LTG Hal Moore, mentioned above, as an O-6 brigade commander in the 1st Cav, took control of the battlefield from LTC Wasco at the Battle of Trung Luong where the 2d/327th was badly outnumbered. For two days I served as Moore’s tactical net radio operator in the forward TOC until the enemy regiment withdrew. Moore was even leaner and meaner than Wasco and tough as nails. This was about eight months after the battle of Ia Drang for which Moore and Basil Plumley became famous. A few years ago, I wrote about the Battle of Trung Luong and copied Joe Galloway who passed it on to General Moore who was quite pleased with my description of his role. About the same time, a retired CSM who was a close friend of Basil Plumley’s became a fan of… Read more »
By the way, I know I’ve posted all this here before, just not in one comment with all the connections; so if Ol’ Poe’s starting to sound like an old nursing home geezer repeating himself endlessly, he begs your indulgence.
You’re were already a stud Poetrooper when you said you were a 54E. Everything else was just icing on the cake.
The more I read about Plumley, the pissed-off-er I get at this guy Brian “I-didn’t –serve-but-my daddy-did” Siddall. He had some medical issues in 2010. Actually, they arrived in 2010. Nothing serious. A brain aneurysm is all. Affected his memory and eyesight. You think I kid but I do not. Anyway, about Plumley. While Siddall was banging around in his dad’s pants (or the mailman’s—who knows?) Plumley was at war in Europe. Plumley’s battery alone took about 25 KIA and another 20 WIA. “Plumley, Basil L.” is listed in the 1945 account of the 82nd as WIA in the Rhineland. Many of his brothers fellow soldiers were KIA/WIA/MIA/POW—the last—a heavy number of POWs—occurred in Holland. That enough? No. Plumley was not only in uniform 20+ years later but he was fighting and guiding EMs and officers alike in heavy combat. Like I wrote before, if the Army wants to correct a record or two, fine, but this Siddall guy wants to hurt Plumley’s image. Shit. On his worst day, Plumley’s shadow could kick this guy’s ass.
“Plumley’s battery alone took about 25 KIA and another 20 WIA.” That was at Normandy only.
I believe the point is that he was an artillery scout assigned to an artillery unit in WWII. I read the military.com article and I saw nothing disparaging his service in this. Only that there is no evidence he performed Infantry duties in an Infantry unit.
Did Basil Plumley ever serve in ground combat? If the answer is yes, STFU. Amazing as it may sound to today’s second guessers, meticulous records weren’t kept at the company level. Ever.
Hell, Meticulous records aren’t even kept at HRC (Human Resources Command) these days. And everything is digital.
My last DD214 had to be corrected with a DD215 because they left off multiple awards that were in my records and screwed up the coding information on it.
They don’t give a shit though, because it isn’t their record and they aren’t held accountable for their mistakes.
This little shit stain just wants to get some fame by trying to defame a hero. He’s a typical millenial, regardless of his age.
Sometimes I can see where records verification can be problematic. Growing up in a military family, the son of a career enlisted Marine I know things changed over the years. Every time my Dad “shipped over” he got a DD214. In those days he would sell back 60 days leave and get paid for travel to/from his home of record. I have copies of his DD214s for his reenlistments and his retirement. I don’t know how that gets translated into a composite record at St Louis and can see where it is easy to have a gap in someone like CSM Plumleys records.
The historical record outside St Louis clearly shows his service in WWII and Vietnam validating 2xCIB. I suspect he shows up in some other history books from Korea. So this should be a simple validation.
I volunteer to be the investigating officer if they need someone to do it.
What is stopping you? Investigate it and post the results.
Re: Plumley
It is my understanding that he rarely if ever spoke of his service. So this seems to be a matter of impeachment of evidence given by others, kept by others, or maintained by others. Of course the wearing of insigna on your uniform is a form of speech, but as an above commentor noted the uniform and time in question was when Plumley was very old and quite possible was dressed by others. As a note what one wears can be deceiving (Caesar as a loud fop or Nelson in official portrait).
It seems to me that vetrerans have two natural enemies in this case those that seek to destroy reputations by questioning facts and those who the veteran no service by inflating their achievements without their knowledge.
In Plumley’s case I think it will remain a mystery until their is unassailable eyewitness testimony about his pre Viet Nam service.
So who exactly said CSM Plumley did all those things which are now being disputed (4 combat jumps in WWII, Infantryman in WWII, combat and parachute assault in Korean War)??? Lets follow the chain of information: Joe Galloway and LTG (ret) Moore in 1991 – 92, while writing the book, “We Were Soldiers Once and Young. Galloway stated in the military.com article that Moore told him that info at the time. So where did Moore get it? Dave Moore, his son, stated in that same article he got it from CSM Plumley in 1965 (ie-Moore DID NOT just make it up). On top of this, if CSM Moore disagreed with those claims, he could have fixed it by confronting those two in 1991. Same goes for the movie in 2001, which he was present for during the filming. He could have told Mel Gibson if he had a problem with it.
The “source” of this nitwit’s rampage is one Russell L. Ross whom insists the events at X-Ray & Albany are entirely wrong and that he is the only one that knows the truth. Ross has confronted Galloway, Moore and several others numerous times over the book and movie “We Were Soldiers” At one time, I completed an ass load of research on this Ross critter and met up with him in the Bay area. It didn’t go well for Ross and we parted company on a not so nice footnote.
” we parted company on a not so nice footnote”
With only a quick look at this guy that is understandable.
Looks like this Cocksucker Slimell has his own website:
http://www.airborneinnormandy.com/index.htm