Guess what, Hillary: Waterboarding works
Carl Higbie, a former Navy SEAL, and Pete Hegseth, a former Army infantry platoon leader, two combat veterans I greatly admire who are now frequent contributors to FOX News, just squared off in the political ring, where Carl is a Trump supporter and Pete a Cruz man. What caught my attention was when Sandra Smith asked them their opinion of waterboarding, an issue just raised by Hillary Clinton, who piously declared her absolute opposition to torture of terrorists to obtain information to abort future attacks like those in Belgium.
Higbie noted that waterboarding is inflicted on our military personnel as part of their training, preparing them for what they may face if captured, so what’s the problem with using it on terrorists? Hegseth readily agreed, and then Higbie volunteered that he is agreeable to doing more than waterboarding if it saves innocent lives. Neither of these former warriors commented on the ignorance of Hillary’s flat-out declaration that torture does not work, as I had been hoping they would. They know better.
For someone who wants to command our military forces, Hillary needs to get herself up to speed on very basic military matters rather than simply spouting liberal pieties. If torture doesn’t work, then why are our troops trained very harshly to be prepared to resist it? If it doesn’t work, then why spend all that time and money training, and why does the American military’s Code of Conduct state this as its fifth rule (emphasis mine)?
5. When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability, I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.
I’d like Hillary to explain to the nation why our national guidelines for American military personnel who are captured recognize the reality that, unable to resist the pain of torture, even our bravest warriors may divulge more than the permitted name, rank, serial number, and date of birth. That’s the meaning of that clause, to the utmost of my ability. It’s recognition by the military that eventually, everyone talks if subjected to enough mistreatment. Then of course there’s the question that if torture doesn’t work, why do so many nations around this globe regularly employ it as an interrogation tool?
As an infantry NCO in Vietnam, I saw freshly captured Viet Cong prisoners punched, kicked, choked, and even electrically shocked with field telephones during battlefield interrogations, and every single one broke quickly and began giving up intelligence on their troop formations and placements. That was information that saved who knows how many American lives, perhaps even mine, and I never once felt regret as to how it was obtained. Following interrogation, we fed them C-Rations and evacuated them to our coastal bases, a far better fate than they faced from their own Vietnamese rivals, the ARVN, who simply shot them on the spot and left them to be buried by villagers.
So Hillary, despite your extensive combat experience in Bosnia, this old grunt is here to tell you that you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about when you say torture doesn’t work. It may not be morally correct by American standards, but lady, I’m here to tell you: it does work, or it wouldn’t have been going on since the first cave man, caught away from his clan, dropped his club and threw up his hands in surrender.
Crossposted at American Thinker
Category: Politics
I have an idea, after she’s indited by the Justice Department for her illegal activities, then we should waterboard Hillary
/In my dreams. Neither will happen.
“Indicted” (too early in the morning. fingers still asleep)
I suspect she would melt……
For that we need only to douse her with water.
No..but she sure as hell knows about murder! besides Benghazi, how many were the numbers when the scum bags were in the white house…58? I think that was the number, several commited suicide by shooting themselves in the back of the head! That dizzy bitch would show you torture if she were to be elected!!
If it doesn’t work, the advanced beatings course sure was a waste of time.
Like so many things about which Wide Load takes the moral high ground, it doesn’t apply to her. Does anyone doubt that if someone she loved and cared about–her daughter, perhaps–could be spared by waterboarding, that sher view would change. What if waterboarding could have been applied to, say, prevent the massacres at Columbine or at Sandy Hook. Would she have said no? And if that sounds outlandish, it’s not. After all, she is proud to declare that the children of others are to be sacrificed when waterboarding might prevent it. So, no, it’s not outlandish. It’s just another one of those little things the ruling class applies to thee, not me.
There are always scenarios in which laws fail to serve the best interest of an individual, while still being good, on the whole, for the society in which that individual belongs.
Reckless driving at 120 MPH is against the law in most places since a more moderate speed limit saves lives. Yet if someone is dying and I need to get them to a hospital and no police or ambulance is in range, I’m going to break that law and face the consequences. It doesn’t mean that the law should change, though – laws are a guideline for civil society.
If I were an intelligence officer interrogating someone and I honestly believed to my core that some sort of, ah, ‘enhanced method’ would yield timely actionable intelligence that would save lives and wasn’t obtainable via other less abusive methods, and the value of that intelligence and those saved lives outweighs the cost of doing it, I’d do it in a heartbeat. And I’d pay for it with a lifetime in jail, most likely. Because there are things which out of principle society should be against, even if individuals may sometimes need to break those rules.
And high level principles of law aside, there’s a huge practical debate over the ‘signal to noise’ ratio of value intelligence gained from torture. I’m inclined to think the cases in which it could be useful are few -not none, but few- and, realistically, should thus be something we do not allow by law… and when it regrettably does need to happen? Nobody talks about it, ever.
LC. “There are always scenarios in which laws fail to serve the best interest of an individual, while still being good, on the whole, for the society in which that individual belongs.”
That’s true but the problem is that, as a practical matter, the prohibition against waterboarding a known or suspected terrorist works to the advantage of the individual at the expense of others. Since we are doing hypotheticals, try this. Intel is gathered by or delivered to the US that we are soon to be hit by a string of simultaneous bio-terror attacks. A couple of detainees in US military custody overseas may have specific info regarding the planned attacks. Do we stand on principle, showing them a Hillary Clinton twerking video but…wait…bad example. They probably would ask to be waterboarded in lieu of that. Let’s just make it light deprivation and audio assault. If they won’t budge, is that it, all done? No mas?
As for your 120 mph hypothetical, yes, it is likely against the law but you are unlikely to be found guilty under the circumstances. A reasonable person faced with such an emergency would do the same. You are effectively standing in the shoes of the ambo driver, were one readily available to get the patient to the hospital immediately. One other thing. I think we are in more agreement than not on this matter, actually. I would not condone waterboarding as a routine exercise to fish for intel but, under certain parameters, I would be happy to commence the dipping myself.
p.s. I you’re going to lift a line from me, at least correct my typos before hitting the “Post Comment” button!
A guy named “Alan Dershowitz” and a number of other civil libertarians would appear to agree with you on the issue, 2/17 Air Cav.
http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/openforum/article/Want-to-torture-Get-a-warrant-2880547.php
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/03/03/cnna.Dershowitz/
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2011/09/07/the-case-for-torture-warrants/
Dershowitz later backtracked, and now says he unconditionally opposes torture on “moral grounds” – probably due to flack he was receiving from others in academia. But his argument is quite sound, and I don’t think he’s ever disavowed his previous stance on the necessity at times when exceptional circumstances warrant the use of severe interrogation techniques.
There are times when the needs of the many do indeed outweigh the needs of the one.
I saw an interview on TV several years back between a conservative and liberals. The interview was set up so that there was one conservative and, I think, three liberals, so they could verbally assault him without pause. The discussion was about the use of torture as a means to obtain information. The liberals said it was the antithesis of American values, blah, blah, blah, and should never be done under any circumstances. The conservative brought them to complete silence by asking how they would feel if torturing a prisoner would save the life of one of their family members. Utter silence. The liberals take the high road until reality rears its ugly head. Then there is this exception and that exception and more mindless blathering, but only if making exceptions is beneficial to them.
I fully agree with what you say. But, as we all know, progtards are woefully ignorant of military matters as their pure disdain of the military prevents them actually learning about it. That said, with the inclusion of women into combat units, I predict two things:
1. Said females will whine about the treatment
2. The progtard response will be to stop the training
It might work, but if you don’t trust your government to do the right thing with your health care or your firearms or your taxes or your property or a host of other things we piss and moan about every day here, do you really trust the idea that government sponsored “enhanced” interrogation techniques will remain outside the realm of being acceptable internally?
I don’t. I don’t trust my government to do the right thing under any circumstances, perhaps initially when a program starts it’s all good intentions and idealistic principle. After a short time it’s something else, something corrupt and something that becomes simply bureaucratic.
Do “enhanced interrogation” techniques always yield good results? Nope, there are a lot of interrogators who do not believe the information is nearly as useful as the kind learned from less “enhanced” methods.
The reason that a lot of third world shitholes use “enhanced interrogation” isn’t just because it sometimes works it’s because it sends a message to the populace that they are nothing more than slaves to be used and disposed of whenever it suits the despot and his regime.
I’m not certain I’m ready for this great nation to join the third world shitholes of the world because it’s expedient at the moment. We already resemble a lot of those shitholes with our government’s help in reducing the middle class, throw in acceptable methods of “enhanced interrogation” and we’ re there. I’m certainly not ready for my nation to join the likes of my cold war enemy the Soviets in its treatment of prisoners. Maybe everyone advocating waterboarding and other techniques should be compelled to read “The Gulag Archipelago” again to remind them what happens when bureaucrats decide who gets to be a recipient of these new and improved techniques.
I’m all for firebombing the middle east, I don’t much care if it kills women and children but I’m not certain I’m ready for my own nation to openly embrace the kind of interrogation methods being discussed as easily as what to have for lunch these days.
Firebombing the Middle East… VOV, how can you firebomb something where there is next to nothing to burn?
What the commies did to our captured soldiers in Nam…
I don’t believe for a minute Hitlary is the least bit concerned about water boarding. She is just taking whatever side she thinks she needs to be on to get her in the WH.
Touche!
Damn straight, Skippy. She will be on whatever side/opinion she thinks will bring her the most votes. I don’t think she has strong convictions about a damn thing. She’s all about Hillary.
You are full of it Poe. Your anecdote as an infantry NCO is not proof of anything. I have served with Army interrogators, trained with them, led them, trained them, trained by them, and been friends with a few for decades. Torture does not work reliably. I don’t give shit about waterboarding. I have been waterboarded (volunteered). I know it is part of training in some courses so I do not necessarily consider it torture. However, waterboarding isn’t that effective. It “may* work if the person believes you will potentially kill them but they have to have information you want and they have to believe you may kill them. Otherwise they just give you what you want to hear. And that is not reliable way of getting information. Even someone that has information you want can distort the intelligence value. There has been tons of research on this and actual professionals in the field do not find torture to be effective. It gives too many false positives. Information that wastes the time of analysts and intelligence folks. http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/an_fbi_interrogator_on_the_effectiveness_of_torture/ And honestly, it does not even matter if it works. It is against international law. We signed the treaties that banned it. We our bound to those treaties. You wrote “I saw freshly captured Viet Cong prisoners punched, kicked, choked, and even electrically shocked with field telephones during battlefield interrogations, and every single one broke quickly and began giving up intelligence on their troop formations and placements.” So you described literal war crimes. Ones you witnessed. While the statute of limitations has long run out I think it is a ridiculous argument to claim that because we committed war crimes in Vietnam we should do it now. Did we win in Vietnam? Was our operation strategy effective at achieving our end state? And you claim we “saved” lives by torturing. While I am not going to claim to know whether the immediate effect of torture did or did not save the lives of those immediately proximal to the “information” gained any claim that torture saves lives overall is dubious at best. The… Read more »
“As someone who spent most of my time developing information sources in the battlespace…”
Well, see, Lars, therein may lie the difference between your wartime experiences and mine. I didn’t spend my time in air conditioned battle “space,” Sweetie, but rather on the battle FIELD, up to my ankles in the frickin’ mud.
And sonny, you’d sing like a canary if you ever had a field telephone hooked up to your balls and cranked by a really pissed American paratrooper. That scenario of course would be contingent on finding your balls.
Once again, Lars, because you haven’t seen it or read it in an academic paper, it doesn’t exist. You are such an arrogant, pompous twit. I would love to hear what the men who served under you have to say about your leadership.
Or lack of…
I didn’t spend my time in an air conditioned space. I met directly with militants ON THEIR HOME TURF weekly.
You don’t know me, Commissar.
There’s your problem. “You met with militants weekly ” . You should have met with militants only one time and left them laying in the battle space.
Lieutenant Taylor, I am coming to the conclusion that you were the kind of officer my hard-ass troopers would take one look at, spit in the dust and say, “Fuckin’ wienie,” with total disgust.
And I would be smiling in silent agreement when I yelled at them, “Alright you assholes, knock that shit off!”
So, Lars, what treaties did we sign that banned waterboarding?
Like I said in my post; I am not sure waterboarding is torture. But Poe is not merely advocating waterboarding.
But, what treaties did we sign that banned torture, Lars? Or is that just something you say? By the way, waterboarding is right there in the title, if you missed it.
Commissar does NOT know me at all.
All I heard was Buzzzz….Whirrrrr….Clickkkk……
Crank up the TA-312, Poetrooper. Piercing the commo wire through the ear lobes works just as well when balls are not to be found.
FOAD, Lars.
That’s way too much trouble, Claw. Just use a Taser.
Ah, Yes, the TA-312/PT Field Telephone.
For the youngsters out there, here is what the model number stands for:
TA – Telephone Apparatus
312 – 3 sources, 1 Crank, 2 Batteries
PT – Push to Talk
Your learning point for the day.
Oh, I almost forgot.
When things are slow and there aren’t any prisoners to interrogate, you can always go fishing in the creek with a TA-312.
I’m just going to leave this here.
https://youtu.be/brGYuf6nmYQ
I think she hurt him more when she grabbed his Jimmy!!
We were still using the old WWII model EE-8’s in 1966 as I recall, Claw. Still, that little unit could crank out enough juice to let you know you didn’t want it fastened to your balls.
The problem with know-ti-alls like Lars is that they presume to be experts on topics of which they’ve had no personal experience. If he’s such a crackerjack intel officer, then he should know that prisoners are far more likely to break quickly when they are fresh out of the fight, still confused and unsure whether or not they’re going to be killed. We never executed prisoners but if we turned them over to the ARVN or the ROK Marines, they were goners.
If Lars ever interrogated prisoners it was likely long after they’d been captured and had time to get their act together, been fed and got some sleep, when they’d already become relatively certain they weren’t going to be killed. That’s a whole different ballgame but Lars is too arrogant and full of himself to realize that. If he were half as informed as he thinks, he would realize the truth of the rule that ultimately, everyone talks. That truth is based on far more experience and knowledge than young Lars has.
How about the Poodle probably bored them to death, and they’d say anything to get rid of him?
Thanks for the info on the old models, PT. I understand the progression from the EE-8’s, TA-1’s and TA312’s. Had my old time Commo Sgt in my ADA Battery in Germany explain them to me when he came to order parts from me for various repairs.
Good points on the straight from the battlefield interrogation to later on after they’re all comfy cozy. Never really thought too much about that. Of course I was never in S-2/3 nor a POW guard, as well as not being familiar with the term *Battle Space.*
Claw, I did serve as an asst S-2/S-3 in an Airborne infantry battalion in Vietnam. I also spent time there in a rifle company as a team leader and sometimes squad leader.
I was never actually the principal interrogator but I witnessed several “anecdotal’ situations such as I described.
Battle space was a doctrinal term the army no longer uses. It refers to the ground and air space that a unit controls, either by physical occupation or fires.
In other words, a units’ battle space is its actual area of operations plus the surrounding area it can shoot, to include the airspace above it. It’s where a unit fights
Battlespace is a good name for a video game.
I’m going to put my twenty cents in right here, and say that Lars the Poodle does not understand that the ENEMY is NOT bound by any laws or treaties that WE signed. And that ENEMY will use any means necessary to get information out of OUR troops, or just maybe demoralize them.
But then the Poodle has never heard of some of the hideously vicious things that were done to US troops by an utterly evil beast in a female body in Vietnam.
Lars, old Poodle, if you ever decide to enter the Real World, the one in which people want to kill you because you exist and will sign or tell you anything because they think you’re stupid, you are in for a very rude awakening.
I do understand that the enemy is not bound by our treaties. But that does not change the rules we are bound by. Nor does it change that overall these treaties give us greater power and influence than torturing people would.
OK, Lars, I’m in a firefight and my weapon jams as an enemy soldier rushes my position. Now under your rules it’s OK if I beat him to death with my entrenching tool, hacking him to pieces in the process.
But what if I stun him with my first swing and then drag his ass back to the command post for interrogation. If I then smack him in the nose with my bare fist to make him talk, am I guilty of abusing my prisoner in your expert opinion?
If so, maybe I’m better off dragging his ass back to where I caught him and beating him to death with my entrenching tool, hmmm?
Decisions, decisions…
I was once in a discussion while on AD when torture was discussed. BTW, I had nothing to add to the discussion. I was there to listen. It was a learning experience for me. On Marine said he would torture someone to death to obtain information if doing so would gather information that would prevent an American troop from getting a minor flesh wound. Would I do the same? Yes. I don’t know what that says about me. Maybe it means I’m human and love my troops and America. If the torture would obtain potentially greater benefit, such as stopping a suicide bomber or stopping someone from crashing an airplane into an American city, I would not hesitate one instant. Not one …
Really? Have you discussed this angle of yours with Neville Chamberlin lately?
When you approach the Enemy with such bubblebrained naivete contained in a ‘peace’ agreement and expect HIM to abide by it, you are the epitome of sheer stupidity.
It doesn’t matter what WE signed if the Enemy – whatever IT is – has no intention of abiding by that agreement. What part of that is so difficult for you to understand?
If you are that disconnected from reality, you need to get some help with your problem. I strongly suggest that you do it now, before there are any recalls to active duty.
You don’t make nice with those who want to kill you. Is that simple enough for you?
“It “may* work if the person believes you will potentially kill them”
This statement tells myself and others that you do not have a basic understanding of what ‘waterboarding’ actually does (physiologically), interrogation resistance techniques, etc.
As for ‘torture’ (to some) never being effective, I frequently notice that the ones who preach this fact have zero experience when it comes to time-critical situations.
Their mores and sympathies are also often based on a distinct lack of first-hand experience when it comes to having seen with their own eyes the victims of the scumbags who are being ‘coerced’.
A human being can willfully commit acts that remove him from protections and considerations granted to his former fellow human beings.
Spare me the bleatings along the lines of ‘we are better than this’ when you are rolling up multiple cells in 1 night, and at the top of the pyramid is a VBIED factory that produces devices destined to wind up in a crowded market, with a torture chamber in the basement, well equipped with power tools, its operator tasked with keeping the local civilians in line and silent.
People who have never lived and worked on the dark side should be very careful when it comes to judging or making blanket proclamations dealing with those who spend time there for the greater good.
We are “better than this”.
But there are times when you must sink to the enemy’s level, and deal with them in ways they understand.
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Damn fine print. Billy Mays does not like the fine print.
Kinda hard to read in a dark coffin.
I got two lines deep. That’s all I could afford to risk and that was plenty. I see that DrKnow’s idol has a new rule: anecdotal evidence is invalid UNLESS it is served up by him.
And another thread shot to hell by our very own shit cannon.
It’s like wading in a mental sewer.
Indeed. I don’t come here for one sided opinions. I truly seek out alternative viewpoints for all of the right reasons. That isn’t what Lars brings to the table though.
I’ve told you this before Lars, it isn’t the message it’s the presentation. A thousand people have told you the same thing. I USED to read your posts and actually research your references. Not anymore though.
You, sir, are what you mock. Just with a different label. You are no different than the most ignorant, radicalized segment of any group. The only person you’re fooling anymore is yourself.
I observed water boarding in Vietnam done by South Vietnam Special Forces.I feel, today, that I possibly would not be alive had it not been conducted. Almost ever other night the unit I was in would surround a village where there were suspected members of North Vietnam. What info obtained was used then. Had we had to wait for the S-2/DIV G-2 to process them it would be to late for our current or upcoming mission. The turn around back to the unit would have been at least (2) two days….
They were turned over to them. It was in almost all cases well after 1200 Hours before they were picked up….My unit had a SOP of no/none pick ups after 1500 Hours.
Come back tomorrow. I was told by some very reliable info sources, that our CIA taught them.
What is wrong with the truth?
I along with a tank company ws there………….
Torture is against the Geneva Conventioms, oh you wanto trade known high-risk terrorist for a piece of shit who walks off a FOB to go be with the enemy? Yea, that sounds cool I don’t see the problem with that.
Good article Poetrooper I’d rather 1000 scumbags who would murder us and our families if they had a chance get “tortured” than 1 Service Member get even a scratch.
*convention, Conventioms are a delicious snack only members of NATO can eat but are not available to anyone outside of NATO
Folks, the way I am on these comment sections is the way I am when I’m with other Soldiers. It’s also the way I am when I’m with other people.
What you guys say about me here? That was said about me behind my back at my unit. I’m a major in the Army Reserve, though some, perhaps many, of the Soldiers that I served with consider me a major pain in the azz. My “know it all” attitude, and taking any disagreement with my position as an “insult” and “attack” against me, has lead to my creating a hostile working environment when I reacted.
What you guys see in me, the Soldiers that I served with also saw in me. Of course, many couldn’t say to my face what you guys say here, but they showed it via nonverbal communications. Examples include “half azzed” salutes, if I’m not avoided to prevent that, to “half azzed” attentions and parade rests when I’m addressing them. The friendly interactions that I get are fake and forced most of the times.
People feel about me the way you guys feel about me, and this has translated to many Soldiers not wanting to follow my lead, my orders, or my intentions. As a major, I could take command of a reserve company or Battalion. But, the Battalion Commander sees in me what you guys see in me, and knows better. He wouldn’t really need the Battalion Command Sergeant Major to let him know that my being in command would lower troop moral and negatively impact retention.
Consequently, estimations that I’m either a paper pushing bubba, or awaiting transfer to the retired reserve, would be reasonable.
Narcissus, how come you haven’t been shot by your own troops so far?
Because if I transfer to the retired reserve, I’m out of their AO. Even before that, after final formation, I’m “ghost” before first formation next drill. But, they know that if they shoot me, they’ll have to deal with my haunting them not just with my ghost, but with ghoulish know it all voice.
Change a few words and it’s Obama talking.
I’ll bet Hillary would like to waterboard Bill. “Who are you screwing around with” as the water starts flowing.
There ain’t enough water…
By Merriam-Webster’s definition, Lars is guilty of performing torture upon the members of TAH:
Simple Definition of torture
1: the act of causing severe physical pain as a form of punishment or as a way to force someone to do or say something
2: something that causes mental or physical suffering : a very painful or unpleasant experience
Full Definition of torture
1a: anguish of body or mind : agony
1b: something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining
Reckon we need to call those Geneva Convention folks…
Sorry, I like this sit but the article is a load of bull. As somebody who spent the better part of a decade in the intel game, “enhanced techniques”/torture/waterboarding does not work. People often assume that it does only because of what they’ve seen on 24 or other Hollywood garbage. In real life, being a dick to your subject will just shut him down and he’ll either shut up completely or tell you whatever he thinks you want to hear. Having experience on patrol or in the S-3 or whatever has nothing to do with formal intelligence gathering.
Sounds like a lost decade, Sorensen. You should write a book and use that as your title. First of all you are trying to tell me and others here that what I experienced in combat is not valid because you didn’t share the experience in your years of “formal intelligence gathering,” which, by the way, was not my topic. That’s a very narrow way of thinking and people who do it don’t tend to learn a lot.
I’d be curious to know how many enemy prisoners fresh out of a firefight, hungry, thirsty, physically exhausted, perhaps bleeding from wounds, visually trembling with fear for their lives, that you’ve interrogated. If you’re the pro you say you are, you know that’s when prisoners are most vulnerable. The main problem is that most of them that we captured were low level Viet Cong and had little intel to divulge beyond their own platoon or company although our sister battalion did snag an NVA colonel as I recall.
My MOS was 54-EP an E-6 Airborne Battalion/Brigade Chemical, Biological and Radiological Warfare NCO, so I had no intel training. Because there was little need for a CBR NCO in that war, I assisted in S2/S3. I know what I saw. Just because my experiences don’t mirror yours and those of Commissar does not invalidate them. Waterboarding and the infliction of pain and extreme fear do assuredly work and if you believe otherwise then I repeat, that was a lost decade you spent in “formal intelligence gathering”.
Glad you enjoy the site. Jonn deserves a lot of thanks from us for providing such a great forum where we can agree and disagree.
I think the difference, Poetrooper, is that you were in the field, pulling information out of enemy combatants in circumstances that can only be described as under extreme duress. And much of the interrogation method was colored by the torture of American troops by VC.
The opposite of this is the noncombatant that Lars the Poodle and Sorensen have experienced, someone whose comfort is more important than anything else, as if intelligence extraction is merely a conversation or gossip over the back fence. If they don’t think you’re going to kill them, they’ll lie their asses off to you while they’re counting and quickly memorizing the numbers of troops within view so that they can relay that information back along their own lines to other jihadis.
How many mama-sans cleaning the barracks at Phu Bai or Bien Hoa or Ku Chi were spies for the NVA, relaying the arrival of newbies after work hours?
And how many jihadis were among the locals allowed free access to US bases in the Middle East, with no surveillance?
That’s the difference, and neither Sorenson nor the Poodle understands that.
I wasn’t going to drop an oar in this, but changed my mind because things seem to keep going in circles.
Intelligence gathering falls under a very big tent. Such things are also, for good reasons, typically compartmentalized in such a way that those who work intel may only know what’s going on in their own area of focus. Overall, it’s also like a big jigsaw puzzle with some of the pieces missing. At certain levels, there can also be a lot of head games that go on in that you don’t want the enemy to know that you know what they think you don’t know about those things they think you do know about. Or something.
Personally, I don’t have a problem with an infantry unit in close contact using whatever means necessary to save lives. If that means getting a prisoner to become more conversational by drinking a Pepsi through his nose, well, it sucks to be a prisoner. Still, it might be pointed out that although a prisoner can provide immediate tactical intel, such information could typically be not only of limited scope, but also of limited shelf life.
Another time when enhanced interrogation is probably warranted is when a prisoner has a high probability of holding valuable intel, but has proven to be a demonstrable liar. Such might or might not be all that difficult to figure out depending on how many pieces of the puzzle you’re already holding.
Part of Lars’ problem is that he tends to have a worldview that is narrowly cast. It may be true that his own experience in amenable diplomacy with tribal elders, or whatever, yielded pieces of the puzzle. What he seems not to recognize is that other valid pieces can be acquired through other means.
Ground Combat units conduct what is called tactical questioning or battlefield questioning. Poe describes it well and Perry is spot on with his assessment of the shelf life of the information. It is not intel. For the most part it is very effective due to the shock of capture; I don’t think the slapping/kicking/shocking was as much of a factor.
However, enhanced interrogation actually makes things tougher to verify. You always assume your source is lying- you have to verify everything they give you. Torture simply gives him another motivation to lie.
In my experience (I was an Airborne Infantry battalion S-2 in combat, a brigade S-2, a CJSOTF intel planner in Iraq and an Intel advisor to Iraqi SOF), units that made up their own ‘enhanced techniques’ or seemed to have a lot of detainees that were ‘injured at the point of capture’ did not have an effective overall intel plan and were grasping at straws. Their use of those techniques didn’t help.
The Iraqis resorted to straight up medieval torture (never around us, and never in a way that we could prove it), and it was never effective. I think they did it more for revenge than anything else. Ironically, they were very, very good at regular HUMINT and were able to find, fix, and finish HVIs pretty easily.
I also had an opportunity to see how some of the most effective units with the highest priority missions worked. They didn’t use anything close to enhanced interrogation. They did do a lot of intel collection and targeted raids, they were able to break their detainees very quickly without laying a finger on them, and were able to keep getting background information from them for long periods of time.
“Ground Combat units conduct what is called tactical questioning or battlefield questioning. Poe describes it well and Perry is spot on with his assessment of the shelf life of the information. It is not intel. For the most part it is very effective due to the shock of capture; I don’t think the slapping/kicking/shocking was as much of a factor.”
Except for the very real certainty that being surrounded by a bunch of large, strong, angry, unpredictable men who are eager to slap/kick/shock you can only compound that shock of capture. Let’s be honest: a lot of us here would be pissing ourselves or worse if we were the detainee under such circumstances. I neglected to mention that I saw a number of these battlefield detainees crying like children though certainly not all. You intel pros tell me, if your subject is crying, do you or do you not have a significant advantage?
You’re right about the low overall value of the information collected in this way as I stated in a comment above. But sometimes small bits of information could have immediate tactical value to the commander on the ground or in the Huey overhead.
You Middle East warriors have to remember that your wars were fought in a much different terrain, topography and concealing vegetation than mine. The enemy we faced could be very near, in force, and virtually undetectable. In that situation, crumbs of intel could have more value than in combat actions taking place in relative open, albeit very rugged, terrain.
The simple truth is, we all have our battlefield beliefs forged in the fires where we fought. In my case, all your refutations are pointless. I choose to believe my lying eyes. And no, Reddevil, my lying eyes don’t have any footnoted references.
Just kidding…hope we’re good to go, younger Airborne brother.
you do have a distinct advantage, and I think that’s the point from an intel perspective: How do you BEST exploit that advantage? Once you go to ‘Level 11’ there’s no going back…