Seizing Ralph Gilbertsen’s guns
Old Trooper sends us a link to the Minneapolis Star-Tribune which tells the story of eccentric 74-year-old Ralph Gilbertsen, a former Marine, and, now a former gun owner. He has a state-issued concealed weapons permit, but no guns, because someone got worried about him and the fact that he believes in Big Foot and claims to have seen a UFO. He also claims that the CIA has been following him for years;
In his letters, Gilbertsen identified specific residents and staffers at his apartment building as CIA agents, and warned that “they will lie and deny it.” He also identified specific Richfield police officers as CIA spies.
In neat, precise handwriting, he keeps a list of the license plate numbers of more than 75 vehicles that he believes have followed him recently.
“There are literally hundreds of CIA spies in Richfield alone that harass me,” he wrote in one letter. “There are thousands of these people in the south-suburban area. I am certain I will be murdered some day.”
So the building managers where he lives called the police and the police took his guns.
When three Richfield police officers knocked on Gilbertsen’s door last May, they were there at the request of Hennepin Community Outreach for Psychiatric Emergencies (COPE). The 30-person agency is a sort of SWAT team for mental illness, handling more than 13,000 cases last year, about one-third of them in person.
The managers of Gilbertsen’s apartment building called COPE after his latest series of letters. When they warned he might have guns, COPE called for a police escort.
Yeah, he’s a little eccentric and a bit paranoid, but he has a clean criminal record, otherwise he wouldn’t be able to get a CCW. He hasn’t made any threats, he hasn’t assaulted anyone.
If anyone needs their guns taken away, it’s those stupid Big Foot hunters on the television. They’re nutty and don’t know how to handle firearms around other people. But, not Ralph. If he is the victim of a crime, and the police have his guns, who will take responsibility?
Category: Gun Grabbing Fascists
I’m okay with the Bigfoot and seeing an IFO (UFO?), but you lost me at “being followed by the CIA for years.”
I ran into lots of certifiable kooks as a cop who claimed to have been followed by the CIA for years.
As long as he didn’t get alien anal probed, I’m OK with him and his guns.
Once anyone gets alien anal probed, all bets are off (in my book). People get a little bit crazy after getting alien anal probed…
So that explains Saniel Bernath’s behavior.
Change to read Daniel Bernath. Hack Stone Publishing regrets the error.
Bernath again!
He has had letters written, on his behalf, by mental health professionals stating he is not a danger to himself or others. The police confiscated his firearms and refuse to give them back, since no crime was committed and he has no criminal record. No due process.
Bingo. This man needs to lawyer up and sue the local PD for unlawful seizure of his property.
Even though MN is a tad liberal in some respects, I’m reasonably sure he will find a number of very good lawyers willing to take this case, many of them almost certainly pro bono.
That’s the problem; he shouldn’t have to. The police should be forced to give him back his guns and pay any attorney fees and court costs. Fat chance of THAT happening.
I sat in the hearings, a few years back, when all this shit was being tossed around by commies and anti-gun types. I knew this day was coming by the way the anti-gun types, including lawmakers, were phrasing their questions and answers. It will get to the point where if you don’t agree with climate change; you can be considered mentally unstable and “poof”, there go your guns. Think I’m kidding? AG Lynch answered a RINO Senator’s question about climate change deniers and how to go after them legally. She stated that she turned it over to the FBI to look at ways to charge them either civilly or criminally.
OT, you’re right he shouldn’t be made to get a liar. I do hope Hondo is right and he can find one to do it pro bono.
If Obammy gets his way, any of us Veterans/Seniors who get someone to balance their checkbook assigned to ’em will be on the NICS no-no list.
I would not be comfortable with taking away his guns based on his belief in Bigfoot or UFO’s… However, the fact that he is paranoid and suffers from some delusions despite his lack of criminal record make me feel that he should be evaluated. If a psychiatrist states he is not a danger, give him his guns back.
I see so many veterans in the course of my job, who are relatively harmless but damn if I would want them having access to firearms.
^^^What he said. I found that the ones who sincerely believed they were being bugged or stalked by the FBI/CIA/NSA etc were just one step removed from “I’ve got to kill them before they kill me”. Meth heads are notorious for that.
What I see as problematic is that he lives in an apartment building in very close proximity to others. If he lived out in a rural area, I’d say leave him the hell alone. But in this case, the authorities have to take into account the possible immediate threat to others. Imagine the outrage if he did shoot an innocent even if by complete accident.
I’m the same age as this guy and I’d be awfully pissed if anyone tried to take my guns just because I’m old. But if I get to the delusional state this fellow apparently is in, (some of you who read my work probably think I have) then I say authorities should err on the side of caution.
Read my reply above.
Our “Dear Leader” will never have that problem. West “By God” Virginia just voted to override the Governor’s veto recently.
Apparently, any hillbilly in dem dar mountains can now walk around armed to the teeth (tooth) without a permit.
Yep, I have to lock mine in the trunk of my car when I pass through their wild and wonderful paradise.
I guess there is no protection for visitors to land even if we have a permit from Indiana. Hang out in a Biscuit World for a while and let that soak in.
Better yet go to a Marshall game, sit through the wild eyed chants “We are…Marshall” and tell me you would’t feel a little better choking down a Steward’s dog with a gun on you.
I look at it this way.
1- He lives in a communal environment. 2- He’s delusional.
3- Whether or not he can properly handle a loaded weapon is NOT being addressed at all by anyone.
The fact is that he is in an environment in which being delusional AND having weapons can be a problem.
If he’s in an apartment building the security level is a bit higher than it would be if he lived in a private dwelling. He’s less likely to require a weapon for self-defense.
Not necessarily true, Ex-PH2. Not all apartment buildings have any form of access control.
Besides, I don’t recall the law providing for any kind of difference in an individual’s Constitutional rights based on whether that individual lives in an apartment or a single-family home.
Speaking of apartment buildings:
Found this November 2015 article from the same newspaper that mentions the same Ralph Gilbertsen :
http://www.startribune.com/upscale-apartment-makeover-forces-hundreds-to-move-in-richfield/350820061/
“Ralph “Gil” Gilbertsen is preparing to move out of his apartment in the Crossroads complex in Richfield, where he has lived for three years. He gets Section 8 assistance that covers about $500 of his $750 monthly rent….”
Interesting.
Marine: You failed to point out the all the tenants have been displaced as the property has been sold and will be under going substantial upgrading.
Bullshit on apartment security, never happened. My $240,000 condo had bare bones minimal. They wrote parking warnings and when things got heated and they happened to be close by, they called the cops. 10 minutes away. The one time things got crazy with a stoned out teenager, I put him on his ass. The cops showed up and made a report, as usual.
Then we can take guns away from the global warming moonbats.
I don’t think they have any. That’s why they’re pushing for Gooberment diktats to silence us non believers.
Undercover CIA agents dressed as Big Foot, now that might make sense; considering sightings regularly occur in so many different states. Where is that damned nurse who is always late with my morning meds?
I’m torn on this one. As a former LEO I saw many paranoid people, some turn violent others don’t. I believe there should be some type of due process, but I’m not sure this guy should possess any firearms either.
That kind of due process exists already. It’s called being declared mentally incompetent by a judge in a mental competency hearing.
That apparently hasn’t happened here. And before a fundamental right under the Constitution – such as voting, or firearms ownership – is forfeit, that form of due process damn well needs to happen.
I think seizing the weapons immediately and having a mental competency hearing within 24-48 hours would solve the issue; similar to the temporary custody hearing conducted in most states within 24 hours after a child is taken into protective custody. I agree 100% with the due process, but I’m not sure someone who believes “There are literally hundreds of CIA spies in Richfield alone that harass me…I am certain I will be murdered some day” isn’t going to decide it’s me or them and start popping off rounds at the “CIA spies” which won’t turn out good for anyone involved.
Seizing the weapons before having a mental competency test STILL falls short of what the law allows. People say dumb shit all the time, but unless they’ve been adjudicated as a harm to themselves or others this just doesn’t pass Constitutional muster. Due process and how it applies to firearms isn’t all that tricky.
From the article, “Minnesota law allows the seizure of firearms on mental health grounds only if an individual has been committed to a mental institution or has been ruled by a judge to be a public danger“.
The Richland PD PIO can try to bend over any which way to justify this, but the actions of the officers are not supported by Minnesota law, at least the law the reporter cited in the article. There well may be other laws that the PD can cite, it wouldn’t be the first time a reporter screwed the pooch on having all of the relevant facts.
One thing, is anyone else confused as to how a mental health “SWAT team” does this? “The 30-person agency is a sort of SWAT team for mental illness, handling more than 13,000 cases last year, about one-third of them in person“. How do you do an evaluation of a mentally impaired/disturbed person, if you don’t interact with them “in person”?
Yeah, I saw that too. Minnesota laws are consistent with 18 U.S. Code 922.
As for your last question… no idea.
I won’t pretend to know Minnesota law, but an immediate seizure followed by a prompt hearing would meet the requirements of most if not all states’ laws. Just to clarify, I’m not in favor of states taking weapons from citizens. When I see someone who thinks they will be murdered by one of the many CIA agents following them I wonder if they should have ready access to weapons.
So a private citizen cannot be worried about being murdered by the government, but a government official who has received no threats, no harassment can surround themselves with armed guards with body armour and fully automatic weapons. Then said official can claim guns are bad, but the citizen should be disarmed. You just might be on the wrong side officer. CIA agents can carry a weapon anywhere and any time they want. A citizen cannot. If that citizen was on the same able protection field as the uber man CIA agent, they might not feel so paranoid about armed agents running around protected by a government hell bent on taking citizens rights away…. just a thought.
Unless there’s more to this story, this whole thing stinks of Soviet-era psychiatric hospital forced treatment as an “enemy of the State”.
If not, it’s certainly too damn close for comfort.
After every major shooting incident those who are looking to protect the rights of gun owners make the claim we need to do more to “help” the mentally ill.
Be careful what you ask for, because this is what “help” looks like sometimes. Now this man has to exercise his legal rights by force of attorney because he’s not been allowed to have a due process moment.
He should have been ordered for a psych eval if there was a concern he might be a problem. Unfortunately if he passes now who’s to say a year from now he doesn’t decide he can’t take his CIA stalkers anymore and terminates them? Some crazy people aren’t at all dangerous or a threat, until they are and then people die.
The reality is that in our society there is not one fucking thing anyone can do to stop a mass shooting, short of getting at the perp before he gets too far in his killing spree.
Too many people believe in the illusion of safety, without realizing that if someone truly wants you dead, you’re most likely going to die unless you’re able to kill them first and a lot of people aren’t able to kill the bad guy first. All the laws, restraining orders, mental competency hearings, etc…change none of that.
We live and die largely by chance. A woman here at my shop lost a sibling recently. The sibling was sitting in her car at a stop sign when some idiot texting never stopped and hit her vehicle. Texting is illegal already, the idiot is facing manslaughter charges but it doesn’t change the sibling’s death one bit.
There is no place we are safe, there are places that are “safer” than others but you are never truly safe. Pretending otherwise is a recipe for heartache.
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Well, it’s not paranoia if they’re really after you…….
You Gun Nutz really need to get a grip. Are you people suggesting that Big Foot is not real?
I personally think there is slightly more evidence that Big Foot is real than there is that an invisible man in the sky grants telepathic requests to alter the laws of physics.
You people are just upset because if believing Big Foot is real makes you crazy, eating crackers and drinking juice to conjure up a Palestinian zombie might start sounding a bit odd too.
Ahh, what the hell, the Zombie Apocalypse might actually be coming one day.
http://www.ammoman.com/
Please kill responsibly.
WATCH. OUT. FOR. THE. ALIEN. ANAL. PROBE. DAVE.
/puts triple layered tinfoil hat on
Now, now – use the proper terminology. “Alien Anal Probe” is so . . . passe.
That should read “pro bono exam by a proctoligist from another star system”. (smile)
Did someone say free stuff? Watch out for the hand-out horde!
If someone with three eyes and two heads is going to dork Dave in the old squeakhole with a piece of metal from Ceti Alpha Five or Remulak, then he’s getting the ALIEN. ANAL. PROBE.
Now if it was me getting it from some good looking woman with big blue eyes, blond hair and big boobehs Rigel (notice the word BIG in the description) then I’d call it a “pro bono exam by a proctoligist from another star system”.
Big difference, Hondo… big difference.
BTW – if there is any of those mentioned wimmens from Rigel that read this blog on a regular basis, I’m here and available for you!!!!
Well, HMCS(FMF) ret. – here ya go. (smile)
http://www.bustle.com/articles/78094-31-plus-size-women-in-bikinis-who-prove-that-fatkini-season-is-the-best-season/image/364426
You didn’t say anything about Hitler. Isn’t that some kind of rule violation?
As long as he didn’t give up the location of the alien outpost, he’s still good in my book and Bigfoot’s.
If he presents such a danger and should lose his firearms, why in the hell does Birdbath still have his?
Talk about paranoid, birdbath is the poster child for obsessive paranoid schizophrenic and really should have his removed from him…
There is a lot missing from this story. For example: where are his family members? Have any of them come forward to express concern for him to authorities? Has there been any kind of formal mental examination done on this man? Who originally brought him to the attention of authorities? Has this man been in any firearms related incidents?
There has to be more to this story than we’ve been told. This kind of thing doesn’t happen in a vacuum.
Really, PN? Ask Jonn about the time when a dipstick loon filed a malicious restraining order against him. Or anyone who’s been “SWATed”.
Sometimes all it takes is one well-meaning (or not so well-meaning) busybody (or a-hole) to screw up your whole day by saying the wrong things to LE – whether they’re true or not.
That photo kinda looks like Bernath when he was chasing the hair around the yard.
Two pints on this. One, the guy is a whack job. I am confident of this b/c he frequently refers to Jesse Vagina’s book. Two, the police were in error in taking his personal property w/o a court order to do so. If the police believed that the guy posed a threat to himself or others, well there is prescribed legal process for that. Did they take his kitchen knives also? I think I know the answer to that. This is not a gray/grey area to me. It is black and white. I will not play the what-if game.
Here’s the o. I make points but I drink pints.
And next, you will take the fifth.
Bourbon I would guess.
I’m wondering if all of these comments decrying the lack of rights for this guy would be different if the story posted concerned a crazy old fart who shot six people for being CIA monitors who’d been tracking him for years….and then you found out he’d been known to law enforcement but they did nothing because even though he believes in Bigfoot and tin foil hat theories about the CIA several psych evals found him perfectly competent for daily life and capable of self care.
This story points out exactly what’s wrong with a “mental” health discussion. A lot of “crazy” people are harmless for a long time and pass mental health competency tests.
Until they don’t.
Since we’re not testing them every few weeks or monitoring their medication consumption, or lack thereof, what we see is the potential negative outcomes associated with mental illness.
Degrees of mental illness are like degrees of torture, some is easier to take than others but it’s all terrible and unpredictable.
Many of you here have previously called for more direct mental health intervention to prevent mass shootings, especially when someone has been known to law enforcement.
My point in all of this is quite simple. Even if he’s proven competent today there’s no promise that tomorrow doesn’t end in bloodshed. Because someone who believes Bigfoot is real and the CIA has dozens of people monitoring his every move is fucking crazy. Period.
There’s no comfortable outcome here.
There’s no perfect solution here, VOV. Either way can turn out badly under the precise “wrong” circumstances.
Personally, I generally prefer to err on the side of personal liberty vice illusory collective “security”. It really is a damned slippery slope. And once sliding, it’s often damn near impossible to stop – let alone climb back up the mountain.
Wait. There is a good answer. If someone is so unstable as to pose a threat to himself or others, there is legal recourse. If some looney toon thinks Jesse Ventura is the second coming, that allows for us to laugh at him, not conclude he will shoot himself or others. I didn’t see in the article that the county prosecutor or social services followed up on this to ensure the personal property seized had a legal justification, absent a warrant. These aren’t legal impediments. They are legal protections from government takings that serve all of us. In any event, this whack job still has his knives, I’m guessing, access to gasoline or kerosene, maybe some fertilizer and diesel fuel. They got only his guns. Why?
Agreed Hondo, I don’t like it one bit that there was no due process followed here. That’s wrong on every level.
It’s easy when the person is clinically, and thus legally, incompetent. Not so much when that person is borderline. What I dislike is the liars pretending there is a perfect mental health solution as much as I dislike the liars pretending they don’t want to repeal the second amendment. There is no true mental health solution, especially in borderline cases of eccentricity versus obvious illness, because we still don’t have a handle on mental illness anywhere on the planet.
It only proves my point though when, or if, he does recover his firearms, there is no predictor as to what happens next with any accuracy.
And that is the reality behind any potential “mental health” solution to the problem of mass shootings. There is really nothing that does anything to prevent a potential mass shooter.
There is truly no safety on this issue as the removal of all firearms wouldn’t stop someone from building a bomb or driving into a crowd of people.
All of us must remain vigilant and aware. There’s no other option really.
VOV, I wonder if some of the thinking here might not be altered a bit if we were to posit this scenario to to the commenters here: “Your recently divorced daughter and her three small children live in this building a few doors away from Mr. Gilbertsen’s apartment…”
I acknowledge the validity of the constitutional arguments against the taking of any citizen’s lawfully obtained weapons. However I also recognize that having a personal stake in the situation that involves real risk can often color one’s viewpoint.
One thing we might want to hear is what the other occupants of that apartment building have to say about the situation.
All y’all that believe you’ll magically gather up and rally once the mystical “final straw” even occurs, remember this.
This is how it’s gonna happen. The targets of confiscation will have some kinda lameoid excuse as to why they should get the hammer, and some might whine about it a bit, but most will just go along to get along.
The excuses will get more and more obtuse, but no one’s gonna lift a hand against it. Well, a few here and there will, but they’ll automatically be discredited and those remaining to be hammered will sneer about how “they make us look bad”.
“…but most will just go along to get along.” I agree but would add that gov’t coercion takes many forms, all of them effective against different citizens. For some it will be the threat of a job loss. For others it will be the denial of licensure, whether it be for fishing, driving, or barbering. For still others it will be special taxes or inducement and incentives to be a good citizen and turn another citizen in. And all of it will be legal, signed, sealed, and delivered. Is it possible? You’re damn straight it is. If a front runner for a party’s nomination for President of The United States is an open and avowed socialist, a bum, a parasite, a non-producer for his entire adult life, and similar things have happened in other ;advanced’ societies, sure it can happen here.
November 2015 article from the same newspaper. Don’t know if this has any bearing on his case, but think it is the same apartment complex:
http://www.startribune.com/upscale-apartment-makeover-forces-hundreds-to-move-in-richfield/350820061/
“Ralph “Gil” Gilbertsen is preparing to move out of his apartment in the Crossroads complex in Richfield, where he has lived for three years. He gets Section 8 assistance that covers about $500 of his $750 monthly rent….”
The cops that did it should be fired.
This is such a ridiculous story. The department should be on their knees apologizing.
So Hillary can go on national TV and claim right wing conspiracy, millions of people after her. This guy claims a few hundred people are against him. So why has not Hillary been raided and her ability to buy guns or be near them in her security detail been taken away?