Colorado Springs PD Fitness test ruled discriminatory
CBS Denver reports that the Colorado District Federal Court ruled the Physical Fitness test to be discriminatory for 12 female officers who were reassigned to desk jobs because of their inability to pass the test;
The suit will now move to a federal court. Police Chief Pete Carey says he’s disappointed, but will abide by the judge’s decision.
“I very firmly stand behind physical fitness tests for our officers. I think what I’m asking them to do is fair and my hope is a federal judge also agrees with this,” Carey said.
The police test consists of two running exams. Officers also have to do 52 push-ups in 2 minutes, and 45 sit-ups, also in 2 minutes.
Unfortunately for the twelve women, most of the citizens that the TV station interviewed agreed that there should be a fitness standard for the department.
Many residents agreed with the chief, saying the requirements of the job demand fitness.
“I remember years ago when there were no fitness standards, and they had some pretty hefty officers … male and female,” said Piccin.
According to the article, all twelve women were over 40 years old. The chief says that he’ll comply with the judge’s orders and return the unfit officers to patrol duty. So, sleep well, Colorado Springs.
Thanks to Old Trooper for the link.
Category: Police
Dr Phil with the truth…..
http://www.freeduh.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/you_are_fat.jpg
Lars can this be correct ????
Sure, if the fitness standards reasonably reflect the fitness required to do the job…
Which these do not.
They are actually more than the minimum pushups for an infantrymen. Though the Marines do not have a pushup or sit-up standard most Marine age groups have to do fewer crunches than these officers have to do pushups.
If the standard does not reflect the actual necessary fitness to do the job and women are much more likely to fail the standard than men the court will likely rule that it is discrimination.
Incorrect.
Crunch Standards for the USMC PFT:
17-26: 50
27-39: 45
40-45: 45
46+: 40
That is for both male and female, and is considered the bare minimum, 100 in 2 minutes being considered a perfect score.
The USMC does not have a different physical standard for infantry, officially. I can promise you though, if one of my grunts barely made the minimum, they would be relegated to the company office. I have done it before and I will do it again.
Rereading the comment, I just noticed you compared the pushups to situps, I misread.
52 push ups? ridiculous! 45 situps? also ridiculous…when I was about 13 yrs old, I went to the Devil Pups camp at Camp Pendleton…I did 113 situps and on blacktop,, wore the hide off my tail bone! this chief is a masochist or has delusions of grandeur!
When I was 40, I could have still managed the 45 situps, but I wouldn’t have been able to do the pushups. Just about half of that, maybe.
I’d say “I’m sorry”, but I’d be lying to you.
Over 40 plumpers on patrol….what could possibly go wrong…
A lot of being a cop is sitting on your ass. I looked at the PT part as preparing me for the 5% of the time I had to get in a foot chase or wrassle a suspect. You know, the times when my life depended on it.
Just tase or shoot the suspect and then sit on them. TAH DAHHHHH!!
Cardiac events?
A couple of things about this. First, the article says the case will now move to federal court. Well, it was filed in federal district court, as Jonn’s first line points out) and now goes to appeal. I read the complaint and it’s a doozy. Since all of the affected women are over 40 (some are over 50) there’s an age issue, as well as the gender bias issue. The problem is that all of the females have been with the department for years and this PT test (two elements are ID’ed above) are not distinguished or weighted for age or gender. Consequently, whether the officer is 22 or 52, the same test applies, as do the standards for males/females. Also, failure on the test barred the failed police officer from working overtime, wearing the uniform, and other items with real effect. I think that the chief’s heart is in the right place but this wasn’t a winner at district ct and it won’t be on appeal, either. So, pay up, change your ways, and serve and protect, chief.
sounds like this pardon the expression “chief” has some vendettas against some or all of these women and is looking for an excuse to get rid of them…imho
These standards are not reflective of the actual fitness necessary to do the job. In fact they are higher than the minimum standards to be an infantrymen which is far more physically rigorous than policing.
This chief will lose.
Repeat yourself much?
As for “weighted for age”, if a female officer, who happens to be 47, gets into a fight with a late teen or early 20’s asshole, does she just call time-out until a more age-appropriate officer is available?
The standard the chief is trying to enforce higher than that of an infantrymen. We could think of hundreds of anecdotal situations where the minimum fitness standard for any job would not be sufficient. But that is not how fitness standards for a job is determined.
This chief will lose.
Lars, you might want to take a look at the Army standards. If a new infantryman scored the CSPD minimum, they would FAIL the APFT.
The Army minimum push-up standard for a 17-21 year old male is 42 (60% score). The “unofficial” minimum infantry standard of 70% is 49 push-ups.
The CSPD standard is 52 push-ups.
You are correct about the sit-up standard. Army standard is 53 for a 17-21 year old male.
Though it is hard to argue even 45 is necessary for the job of policing. Most physical strength requirement claims for policing are associated with upper body strength and cardiovascular endurance.
If the standards are age adjusted things look even more dismal for the chief. Though at least not having age adjusted standards is a reasonable argument since the job is the same regardless of age. However, not having age adjusted standards or a reasonable standard regardless of age has almost always failed in court because it they be used as a artificially standard to force out long time employees before they reach retirement age and discriminate against women.
You forgot to type “This chief will lose”.
It’s noted that you’re not a man of your word, because here you are.
Troll much?
UpNorth a troll? If that’s true, I’m a troll too. In fact, he’s president of the TAH Troll Club and I’m VP.
You know, when a cop gets in a fight, his first issue is weapon retention. He has a choice either to pull that firearm or not. If he doesn’t, he’s spending half his time with a hand locked on it. If he doesn’t, he’s “overreacting” or “escalating” the situation. Fights are very, very tiring–and I’m talking an all-out street fight. They don’t last long for that reason alone. I agree that the testing doesn’t measure anyone’s ability to do anything of value when it comes to street confrontations. The chief would like his force not to look like poster boys and girls for Krispy Kreme. I get that. No, he won’t lose, Lars. The case will settle.
CORRECTION:
If he DOES, he’s “overreacting” or “escalating” the situation.
It it settles the settlement will include a policy change for the department.
Yes, it will.
Lie much?
Women are more physiologically adept at situps. A woman’s center of gravity is in her hips while a man’s center of gravity is in his shoulders – making pushups easier for men than women. Women are naturally better at situps.
That may be true, I have heard it before which is why the female standards were brought in line with male standard a while back.
I don’t think setups have much relevance at all to the fitness required to be a cop. The core strength necessary for that is not well correlated with sit ups.
So, if a 22-year old is fat and looks like he gets the shakes as he nears a donut shop, he is good to go if he passes the PT test, which is plausible since only 2% of men and nearly 40% of the women failed. On the other hand, you have a sharp and damn fine looking detective who is very good at her job but can’t get the PT standard and she gets canned–if she hails after a retest six months later. (Gosh, I sound like a freakin lib. I’m scaring myself.)
When I was with Honolulu PD, the only time I had to pass the PT test was when I graduated from the academy.
The union had gotten the department to agree that officers only had to participate, not pass the test.
This led to “1 pushup, 1 situp, and 1.5 mile walk while smoking a cigarette syndrome.”
The fitness test to referee high school soccer is more involved than that last bit you have there…regardless of the age of the referee.
I happen to know one of the ladies that is part of the suit. Just to be clear, most of the officers in question are far enough along in their careers that they are not patrol officers. Most are supervisors or are part of investigation units and are already at desk jobs. With the first failure of the test they were required to give up their weapons, stop wearing the uniform and given duty unrelated to policing. In at least one case one of the ladies was required to take the test while recovering from an injury to one of her shoulders. The story is misleading.
Are you saying that “supervisors” aren’t street officers? My street “supervisors” were sergeants, and they took calls, wrote tickets and sometimes fought with people right along with the rest of us.
In 27 months in the stolen car investigative unit, I got into several fights with drivers of stolen cars, but you don’t think “part of the investigative units” would get into things like that?
The issue isn’t how many pushups, or sit ups, or miles in the run compared to other jobs. The issue isn’t the age of the person. The ISSUE is public saftey and being physically fit to do the fricken job proficiently. Could a really sharp detective, who couldn’t run out of the way of their own shadow, be able to chase down and hold a robbery suspect that didn’t have 3 Starbucks crappucinos and 4 muffins for breakfast? If you think that your age and physical fitness doesn’t play a role in doing your job as a patrol cop; you are probably wrong. Whether you’re 45 or 25, if you can’t pass the standard, then you shouldn’t be at least concerened with whether your lack of physical fitness impairs your ability to do the job you want to do. It leaves you a choice to get your old wrinkled ass in shape, or enjoy a desk job, not whine that you’re a special snowflake that shouldn’t get their feelings hurt.
You’ll be wishing you did some PT and took self defense seriously when some punk is kicking your ass.
It happens, whether anyone wants to acknowledge it, or not. I know of a late 40s female police officer that was short, pudgy, and had an attitude. She thought that a badge and gun were enough of an equalizer when she would confront others. For the most part, it was, but then she ran into a situation she wasn’t prepared for; someone who wasn’t intimidated by her badge and gun. She lost that encounter, but was lucky enough to not lose her life. Just a few bumps and bruises. Was she serving the community to the standards they expect? Probably not, since the one who gave her a going over wasn’t caught and was on the loose in the community. Another over 40 short, pudgy female cop got her butt body slammed by another female that wasn’t over 40 or pudgy (I witnessed that one). Luckily, in that case, there were several other officers that were younger, more fit, and readily at hand to save her from a severe ass whoopin’.
I know several other female LEOs that are younger and physically fit and can do the job just fine. Same with males that spend more time stuffing muffins in their yapper than doing PT. They aren’t doing the community any favors, either, and I see a lot of them out there. Obviously, having physical fitness standards aren’t applicable to all departments, but they should be, if we want the police to actually be able to do the job they are being paid to do.
The standard needs to be reasonable. And “reasonableness” is both based on the actual requirements for the job and what other agencies around the nation maintain as their standard to see if it is in line with the sector overall.
This chief will lose.
The chief probably will lose, but that’s not the point.
When I was a naval aircrewman, much of my training to be aircrew was preparation for events that, thank God, never happened. Emergency procedures. Heck, I can’t even remember when was the last time a P-3 crashed or ditched. Been quite a while.
Many of the other duties of being aircrew didn’t require much in the way of physical fitness. There were a number of fat boys that I flew with. Most of the time, like cops, we sat on our butts.
Does that mean aircrew (and military members in general) shouldn’t maintain a level of fitness so they can deal with the emergencies? I don’t think so. I can tell you that those fat boys would have drowned in about two seconds if we had had to go down in the water. Heck, maybe some of the fit guys would have too, but their chances would have been a hell of a lot better.
Same with cops. Train for the event that may never ever happen cause your life depends on it.
Yup, the chief will probably lose, but the cop who doesn’t keep in shape will also when the shit hits the fan.
I mention above that my former department, Honolulu PD, didn’t require one to pass the PT test, just participate. Notwithstanding, I (and many others) made damn sure that we stayed in shape.
It all depending what the CSPD wants the test to do for them. If is a job criterion (functional fitness) test, then it should bone based on actual job requirements but not age and gender normed. criterion could change based on specific duties- a patrolman has higher requirements than the desk sergeant…
if it isa general ‘health and wellness’ test designed to inculcate a culture of fitness, then it should be age and gender normed. A 40 YO woman that scores the same as a 24 YO man is in far better shape than the man.
The question will be whether or not the test accurately reflects the job demands- it does not. This link seems to describe the events and scoring:
http://www.springsgov.com/page.aspx/units/units/cityclerk/Files/Page.aspx?NavID=4734
Push-ups and sit-ups Are generally not considered to be good functional fitness tests- they don’t test anything useful.
I would guess that policing requires strength, power, agility, and cardiovascular fitness. The IAT and Beep test cover the last two, but there is no power or strength event on that test.
CSPD should have a good gauge of what shape their officers is in. Finding the “sweet spot” is tough.
However, no matter what the chief says he/she wants or what the jurisdiction’s intent is by having the test, cops need to be prepared for the unlikely, but ever possible fight for your life event.
Simple message: stay in shape if you want to live. I got into a few tussles with criminals and, even though I was in decent shape and won the fight, I was friggin’ pooped at the end. Exhausted. I am sure many here know how quickly your gas can run out. That’s why we were taught in the academy to not hold back. Hit hard and then HARDER.
The street is where the real test happens. The PT tests meant nothing to me cause I knew I would pass them easily. I concentrated on refining my self defense tactics.
And I don’t know about CSPD, but in Honolulu, my sergeants were on the street with me mixing it up like everyone else. They might be a desk sergeant once a week, if that.
Fair enough- the physical standard should be based on the performance standard.
If all officerss, regardless of rank, have the same physical demands on the job they should pass the same test, which should not be age or gender normed.
The wife and I were taking a convertible cruise through the beautiful fall foliage covered hills of rural Arkansas a couple of days ago when we passed a traffic stop. A pudgy, aging, female sheriff’s deputy with a long gray ponytail was standing in front of her vehicle faced off against a much younger, very ruggedly fit, thuggish looking biker.
I mentioned to my wife that I hoped the deputy would be OK because she wouldn’t have a prayer against that dude if he decided to overpower her. I couldn’t stop and offer assistance because I had a loaded nine millimeter close at hand and Arkansas gun laws are notoriously confusing from one jurisdiction to another. I could have ended up being arrested myself.
Less than five miles down the highway, another sheriff’s vehicle with lights flashing and siren blaring went roaring past us. We looked at each other and both hoped the deputy was OK. We haven’t heard anything in the news.
I just can’t fathom putting such physically disadvantaged women out on patrol by themselves in remote areas like that.
Hmm. When I was in the Army, an 18-year-old male was required to do 42 pushups in two minutes in order to pass the APFT. So requiring a 40-something female to do 52 pushups does seem pretty stringent to me.
Maybe the correct answer is not to do away with fitness testing altogether, but to scale the test according to age and gender, the way virtually every PFT I have ever seen is scaled?
FLETC has now gone to participation only (if you want) type of training academy.
There was a federal case not long ago where a male FBI applicant failed the PT test and sued b/c the standards were different for women than for men and he would have passed the female standards. He lost. Talk about a guy with no sense of pride. Cripes.
I seem to remember writing a post about an Air Force officer a few years back who did the same thing. I can’t remember Dudley’s name.
On edit; Here it is LTC Cote and he filed an EO complaint about 1.5 mile walk.
The 300 lb gorilla in the room is that there are different standards for women than for men but the standards have to be related to the job needs. ‘Splain that one to me, Lucy.
It depends on what they want the test to do.
There are two different concepts for physical occupational standards.
One is a general health and fitness concept, which might be fine for a job with no stringent physical requirements. This allows you to ensure everyone is generally healthy. This type of test should be gender and age normed, which simply means that you are performing at or better than average for your age and sex. The APFT is like this now, which is why it is a bad test for the Army.
The other concept is a functional criterion standard. In this, the entry and continuation testing is based on the strength, power, agility, and endurance requirements of the job. If the job requires you to lift a 50 pound object over your head, then you have to demonstrate that amount of strength regardless of your age or gender or what the average person can do.
CSPD is mixing the two. The beep test and agility test are relatable to job function, but the push-up and sit-ups are not. The Chiefs stated goal is to create a fitness culture, not to see if officers can actually do their job.
So, a little guy that is a good runner will do better on this test than a strong, powerful, guy because his strength and power don’t enter into the test and actually detract from his speed and agility. The lighter you are the better the runner (in general). Push-ups are actually a muscular endurance event, and are not good for judging strength and power. Sit-ups don’t really tell you anything useful and there is a lot of evidence that they are bad for youThe test will tend to shape how people train for it- they will do a lot of push-ups, sit-ups, and running, probably at the expense of strength and power training, which I think we could all see as beneficial for a cop.
All of that is well and good but it doesn’t explain that if the physical requirements for a particular job are A, B, and C, how can it be that women who are to perform the job can have lower physical requirement standards than men? Either the male standards are too high, the female standards are too low, or the standards are not related to the job to be performed.
Have them patrol 7 Falls on foot.
That’s my point. I am not familiar with “7 Falls” but if that’s a job requirement, then having separate PT standards for males and females who must perform that same foot patrol makes no sense.
7 falls is a pretty nice natural tourist attraction. 7 water falls in one area. But it is ALL stairs. If you get to CS, I highly recommend it, as well as Garden of the Gods.