Two Fought Back
It appears that at least two of the individuals at the Chattanooga Navy Operational Support Center did considerably more than simply wait to be slaughtered when the facility was attacked last week.
Multiple news reports (Fox, Navy Times, Washington Post) say that internal DoD investigation/reporting indicates two of the military personnel there appear to have been armed with personally owned weapons when the facility was attacked last week. Those individuals were one of the slain Marines (not further identified) and LCDR Timothy White, the Center’s CO. (CDR White survived the attack.)
Both also appear to have returned fire at the facility’s terrorist assailant, Mohammed Abdulazeez, during his attack on the facility. It is not clear yet whether either fired shots that hit their attacker. (Autopsy results are expected this week.)
Both the slain Marine and LCDR White appear to have been in violation of DoD policy by being armed with a personally owned weapon while at their facility. In general, DoD policy prohibits personal firearms on DoD installations or facilities.
Can’t say I blame either of them for apparently intentionally disregarding policy, though. Being an unprotected and unarmed soft target during a war is NOT a good thing. Policy mandating that is simply freaking foolish, and we’ve got enough data now to know with certainty that the enemy – radical Islam – can on occasion strike targets here in the US directly or by proxy.
I also hope further investigation shows that one or both of them fired shots that hit Abdulazeez, ending the attack. Maybe then DoD will finally find the backbone to do what’s been obviously necessary since at least 2009.
Category: Military issues, Terror War
DoD will now declare the death a non-Line of Duty. /s…but maybe not!
DOD….now is Dept of Dildoes…you know, phony, cheap, imitation PRICKS! Let them stand guard in front of Military buildings, since the morons don’t want our military armed….to even say that boggles the mind!!
…Sadly, given this DOD, if they did shoot back I see – at the very least – a Captain’s Mast in their future. No way the people in DC who rest easy behind several heavily armed layers of protection can let this slide.
Mike
Let ’em! You’ve got to be alive to be tried. This is where the rest if us have to raise hell and make so much of a stink that the uniformed politicians in D.C. have to back off.
Damned right!
Sadly, there goes the LCDR’s career. . . . Too bad. He did the RIGHT THING, against boneheaded directives and orders.
Now if the Perfumed Princes were under direct attack, I’d start a pool to see how quick those non-personal- arm orders would be changed and rescinded.
It wouldn’t surprise me if they pulled the Marine’s death benefits to boot. This type of thing certainly doesn’t fit the White House’s agenda.
We’ve seen a lot of military personnel who did the right thing lose their careers in the last eight years, both here and overseas.
A law enforcement helicopter pilot put the copter down in a area off limits to motorcycle riders, etc. Taking it back up, it went out of control killing Doyle and injuring his partner. We all attended the funeral. A few days later a women wrote our local editor “his job is just as dangerous as a Taxi driver but they don’t get the funeral the Deputy got and it wasn’t in the line of duty”.WTF. I wrote a letter back and said lets meet in the worse neighborhood in your area where gun fire is a daily thing. You find a place to hide and I’ll do the same. With your cell phone call a Taxi and I’ll call 911. Wanna bet who’s going to live?
Since we both signed our names to our letters, she contacted me to convince me that I was wrong. I asked to meet her for coffee and asked a few fellas off if they would play along with my plan. We met at a coffee shop whose manager and employee were told along with the few customers.
We said down and she started talking about all dangerous jobs. A guy stood up and yelled everyone down, this is a robbery with a fake gun. As their walking around she cries, I know their going to kill us. I pulled out my unloaded weapon, yelled Police, drop it or die! Of course they put down the weapons and then we busted up laughing. I asked the lady “weren’t you glad I was off duty with my weapon? I could see it in her eyes she completely understood. She wrote another letter to the editor and told what convinced her to change her mind. Although I was off duty, I could of been shot or I killed the robbers. I have a new friend who now donates to FAMILIES OF FIRST RESPONDERS KILLED IN THE LINE OF DUTY.
As for the Marine that shot back, keep us up to date. Losing his career and benefits IS FUCKING BULLSHIT.
That happened in early 1990. Just in case BERNATH NEEDS ANOTHER HINT.
Those Marines were certainly a danger to the public at large, weren’t they?
Ask me who I’d trust more with a Berretta 92 – a Marine or Joe Blow down the street. Not even close!
Those brass heavy administrators in DC have been sitting in their ivory towers a little too long.
Ask me which I’d trust more, a Baretta 92 or a Glock 19.
Shot, Over.
I have a 92 and a Glock 23 – and I agree – love the Glock.
I have several Glocks, 9mm, .45, .40 and a 92F Beretta. The ’92 is fine. I had to qualify with the armory one, but I ended up doing a lot of practice with mine, so I certainly can’t complain about it. High cap, safe, reliable. It will pour rounds down range. My favorite? Maybe not. Trustworthy? Yea, I’ll give it that.
A CO who took his responsibility for the safety of his troops personally? What a novel idea. Maybe it will catch on around the system.
At the very least any disciplinary hearings should be quite interesting.
In both the LCDR’s and the (sadly) deceased Marine’s case, they each apparently decided, “Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.”
Can’t say that I blame them. The blanket ban of all firearms on DoD installations renders isolated facilities such as these two in Chattanooga little more than soft targets.
True Hondo. Very true. My God, tho. I think the LCDR may indeed be tried by 12. I hope he holds his head up high. He took a stand. I have to respect that. Wrong or right.
If LCDR is able to get his 20 years in, he’ll be lucky. I see, at the least the Navy version of a GOMOR ending up in his personnel record and his never seeing CDR.
About the best the LCDR can hope for is that he’s an LDO and already has his 20.
Hmmm… at least two (2 – count ’em) people in the military, on a military base, with some common sense and a proper reaction to the intruder.
This news makes good my day. Very, very good.
We should have a letter writing campaign to the sub-undersecretary-whoever of defense who supposedly can discipline these guys for carrying weapons. And then get his @ss fired if he doesn’t raise hell about it.
The Pentagon doesn’t give a crap about public opinion but cares a great deal over how they are perceived by certain Congressional committees and ranking members. oBaMa caved on the flag, no doubt knowing that two of our guys returned fire using their personal weapons. I see that as a good sign that White may come out of this okay. But I could be very wrong.
Two had the means to fight and did. Was LCDR Smith immediately present went the attack began or did he pull his weapon and run towards the firing? I don’t know. Was the Marine first hit but able to return fire before he fell? I don’t know. Were others saved because two of ours were armed? I don’t know. Did the Muslim terrorist die as a direct or indirect result of returned fire from our guys? I don’t know. What I do know is that LCDR White’s career may be on the line but, if it is, he will probably spend the remainder of his days thinking he could have done more and overlooking the fact that he did what he could because he was prepared to act and acted.
The LCDR and one of the Marines making a stand and using their own weapons to fight back? Unfortunately, in this age of correctness in the Military (and society in general), the LCDR’s career is probably over (Mast or other admin action taken against him).
As for the Marine… my guess is that his family will probably get his benefits, but they will be told that “his misconduct” almost put those in jeopardy… they will give them up, because “Marines take care of Marines”.
I’m hoping that this will change the current policy, but I’m not betting on it.
There was and always will be some shit birds who did what they damned well pleased and used common sense. Just too damned independent to cower to authority. That’s why some of us had a four year career and nothing else. Good while it lasted, but we knew we’d never make it through 20. This makes me feel much better knowing some of them were in the upper echelon. Unlike the asshole making excuses to continue the elimination of weapons at recruiting stations. You know, yesterday’s picture of him and the Hildebeast. Again, put these three words in one sentence (after looking at the picture again) Shillery, Clap, Clark. Then tell me what picture your mind conjures.
There is much more to know about this – but I promised someone that I wouldn’t talk about it for a while. There was tons of heroism to go around that day among the folks at the Reserve Center as well as at the recruiting station. When the story comes out, the pentagon isn’t going to like it much. I can tell you that it looks like three of the Marines were armed and at least two of them had personal firearms and many more would have died if they hadn’t taken measures in contradiction of the Pentagon’s policies.
Then that’s a damn shame, Jonn, because heroism doesn’t mean anything when cowards are in charge. Prepare to see the liberal press turn like rabid dogs on those Marines, because now they’re not helpless ‘victims,’ but fighters who now will comfortably fit the “crazy vet” mold. Between the cowards in the government and the commies in the press, those Marines, living or dead, are now toast.
Then there is hope, after all. Good.
The fact that ISIL.. Tweeted before and right after the attack about the attack is mind boggling. Is all the asshole want to do is make it out to a lone Wolf.. This is not over with yet the truth is still out there we’ll see how long this one takes…
Hey Jonn, who (what agency) controls the investigation at the DOD site? Who controls the release of report about the investigation?
I’m asking so that I can write a letter to Congress-peoples supporting the early release of the report.
The shooter is dead and everybody knows who he is. There is nothing to be saved or fixed by withholding the results of the investigation. The only thing that would be protected by withholding the document is a certain President’s ass.
The DoD needs to follow the example of these warriors.
Why is it that stars on the shoulder equal politician instead of warrior? (except for General Matis)
It almost seems that DoD has become an oxymoron.
The lib gun control rules and regulations are getting tossed more and more into the trash by people that take their safety and security serious.
The public is on board with that and understands that having a gun is not really a dangerous thing but NOT having a gun is truly dangerous with all the crap going on in the country right now.
As usual, the stories out of the gun control areas continue to show an increase in murders and other crimes involving illegal guns.
Until the prosecutors take gun crimes seriously and quit plea bargaining them away the murder and overall crime rate will continue to rise.
Military members, that are trained to go to war and fight for this country having guns….GUNS?!?!?! And USING THEM?!?!?!?
What the HELL were they THINKING???
I thought our military was trained to be the best umbrella holding, tea serving, Sergeant-Major-marching-up-and-down-the-0square force in the WORLD!!!
This is my shocked face. {:-|
British Army? I thought this was the model for the new Basic Training in the U.S. Army.
Wait, couldn’t have been. Drills aren’t allowed to yell at recruits in Basic anymore, it might make them feel bad.
Did Monty Python ever have a bad skit? On a personal note in protest of the moronic idea to charge LCDR White I am burning all my Navy stuff in the morning. I served 20+ years in the submarine force and will not be associated with an organization like the US Navy any longer.
Netted out:
Good on them for returning fire.
Bad on them for returning fire (with personally owned weapons).
Let’s see what happens.
MC,
I’ll bet if your son/daughter was under attack you wouldn’t really care if those attempting to protect them were using mil issue, personally owned or stolen weapons. I do know recruiting personnel have been threatened with this type of attack since at least 2003; every couple months we’d get the FBI alerts. DOD and Navy/MC leadership did nothing except tell us what we and they couldn’t do. No money for bulletproof glass or secure entries, but there was always plenty for the warm, fuzzy, feel-good diversity conferences.
Cease fire, TCS. Master Chief was using his acerbic wit to make a point.
Rusty Can … I did not drag your child in to this debate, don’t drag mine.
If you don’t get my style, don’t reply.
I have commented in the same tone now for over 4 years … with little misunderstanding!
PS: I am a Tin Can Sailor too … USS Edson (DD-946) The Great Gray Ghost of the Viet Nam Coast … and ship of Twilight Zone fame.
That’s a beautiful ship, Master Chief. I’m glad to see that she’s going to be a museum ship, instead of scrapped.
Who was it that said, “An armed society is a polite society”.
The late author Robert A. Heinlein.
Personally, Starship Troopers had the right idea. Only Vets should be allowed to serve in politics.
Or vote. Or be full citizens.
Any senior officer ordered to bring charges should offer up his resignation right then and there. Politicians can be embarrassed into doing the right thing if those with character are willing to take a stand. That includes all of us! If charges are brought against any of those who used their own weapons to defend themselves we have to lose our freaking minds and throw a fit of epic proportions. Don’t be ignored and don’t be deterred-raise hell!
I’m fairly certain there are more than a few former Navy Recruiting District personnel dusting off old CD’s with interesting emails. There’s a 14 year history there demonstrating a complete lack of proactive response by big Navy and Navy Recruiting to reasonable requests given a credible threat. We all make choices, and I knew several who chose to potentially get booted out early vice having their relative receive a nice folded flag.
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/bios/navybio.asp?bioID=379
She is his CO.
We all know that the gun grabbers are going to try to use this to their advantage. They will gnash their teeth and state that their guns didn’t save the service members. Never mind the fact that they probably kept more lives from being lost.
Admiral just said … “they fought courageously and or valiantly” words to that effect.
Therefore, they are good … perhaps slap on wrist and a high five!
The Admiralty is far different from the sniveling civilian politicians who will see this as an affront to their gun control. I’m waiting for someone to say the shooter was only defending himself when he shot back. You know some hippie asshat is going to make that comment.
Do you know which Admiral? I can’t find any official comment in the usual places – it appears they’ve gone on lock-down to get their story synched.
One Star Female … COM MID SOUTH I believe.
But what do I know …
I was wrong she is: COM SOUTH EAST and a hard core Sailor!
https://www.cnic.navy.mil/regions/cnrse/about/biographies/rear_admiral_mary_m_jackson.html
Vice Admiral Robin Braun,
https://www.navyreserve.navy.mil/Pages/leadership.aspx
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/bios/navybio.asp?bioID=379
Vice Admiral Robin Braun
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/bios/navybio.asp?bioID=379
How about a Meritorious Mast?
Further, FBI says, their actions “no doubt saved lives”!
The trick is to write the “letter of reprimand” almost exactly like the citation for the medal recommendation. (I am speculating Silver Star, based on what little I know of the events)
…..you have annoyed and perplexed higher authority than mine, through your valorous and gallant conduct that fell outside what was required or expected of you. despite the apparent requirement from higher HQ to accept the potential for lethal encounters, unarmed, you chose instead to risk your career and reputation in a defiance of those orders that you questioned the sanity of. We cannot take any official notice of your uncommon valor, as you utilized non-issue arms, however effectively and valourously.
You are herby admonished for getting caught. Consider both wrists lightly slapped. The fact that many have called for your citation and transfer out of this unit to a combat-arms unit, in harms way, should also be taken carefully into consideration by yourself, and any future boards considering your promotion or other favorable actions.
it is my deep regret that I must characterize your gallant actions as “against good order and discipline”, as directed by higher headquarters, instead of citing you for decoration and acclaim.
We should be so truly blessed, at having some flag-rank officer with stones big enough to post something like that (tweaked by real legal and awards people for maximal effect).
Well done!
Brother, you deserve a medal for that. I’m forwarding it to a bunch of my friends who are still in.
Actually, there’s a simpler way his chain-of-command can – and IMO, should – handle this.
A Memorandum of Reprimand or a Written Admonitions need not be filed in an individual’s permanent records. They can instead be directed by the issuing commander to be held locally and destroyed on the individual’s PCS to another job, or at the expiration of a set amount of time. The commander issuing the LOR/MOR or Written Admonition almost always has the authority to decide whether the document will be filed locally or will become a part of the individual’s permanent file.
I’m guessing the good LCDR may well receive a Flag Officer reprimand or admonition – directed to be filed locally for a period of one year or until PCS, whichever comes first. And along with that reprimand, he’ll also get a smile and an off-the-record, “Well done – but don’t get caught again!” from the appropriate commander. (smile)
always wondered how that worked… one of my worst COs ever (I knew career NCOs who ETSed rather than re-enlist for present duty assignment as he demanded)got an 11 page letter of reprimand… then when said CO major PCS’ed to Korea and wound up under his buttbuddy former regiment CO again, the colonel had the reprimand pulled.
11 page LOR …
BRAVO SIERRA FLAG
I think that no one who fought back and defended the base or other people who get anything but a high five and a ‘well done’.
But what do I know?
That should be ‘or other people should’. Sorry, did not proofread. My bad.
There is a word for “unprotected and unarmed” people in a war. That word is Civilian.
So many ways to go with this…bad on them for disobeying directives…better on them for standing up for themselves.
I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6…
This will be turned into gun control crowd fodder. “They were armed and it didn’t save them-and they were pros. Amateurs would do worse. Confiscate all the gunz.”
I doubt they will get in trouble for being armed and if they do it probably will not go above a negative counseling UNLESS they have people who dislike them in their chain of command
It seems strange to me that DOD hasn’t released ANYTHING about what happened and the Navy facility. This is out of character even for DOD unless — the local commander wants to canonize his LCDR and higher wants his ass – or something.
Why the COMPLETE silence?
How many holes in the attacker? Was it the cops or the Marines? All of that will come out, why wait?
The Admiral today signaled the Navy’s position … which was positive.
The FBI said, “no doubt they saved lives”.
FBI is the lead on the terrorism case.
As per FBI, DoD (NCIS) is the lead on any issue with respect to actions of military personnel and associted policy.
In the end, local, state and FBI don’t give a rats ass about mil personnel who fought back … that was made clear today in presser.
However, NCIS, US Navy, USMC and DoD no doubt will either do right or wrong on this!
I suspect the CO and Marine who fought back will be fine!
I was voluntold to be a Marine recruiter once upon a time. Hands down, it was the hardest 3 years of my life between the 80 hour work weeks, no leave for 3 years, high stress, fuckfuck games pulled by the command, the constant prospect of divorce, and pressure to sign up more bodies so some Major at the head shed could get promoted. We called it 36 1-month deployments, because that’s how often we worked. If you got into a car accident due to sleep deprivation, it was your fault. If a kid said no at the last time, it was your fault. If a civilian badmouthed you on the phone or no-showed for an appointment, it was your fault. Every phone call we made, every school visit we hit, every prospect had to hit a certain “number” every month and the numbers were always inflated to get more work out of us. If we failed to hit them, it was common for us to be sent to WalMart at 2 a.m. in our dress blues to “find a kid to enlist.” Of course, that never worked. Had to show back up by 7. The fact that none of us volunteered for the job and all of us wanted to go back to Iraq/Afghanistan was the truth, not a joke. The status of recruiting centers as federal buildings is iffy…we often had to confiscate knives kids would bring in and they would just kind of sit in the office until they came back from MEPs. Guns weren’t allowed, but I conceal carried in civilian clothes anyway because we had to deal with crazy/stupid people sometimes and I didn’t want to die. It only takes once and it’s all over. So, make no mistake…had the Marine who carried lived, there would be no question as to whether or not Marine Corps Recruiting Command would “go to bat” for him. No way. It’s SOP to throw recruiters under the bus for any and all problems because they are seen as a disposable work force that will just spend 3 years signing… Read more »
Sending him out of recruiting duty would have been a luxury. They most likely would have just demoted him.