Women in Ranger School issue…still
The Washington Post does another article on the recent failure of 19 women to complete successfully the first phase of Ranger School. If you’re just catching up the issue, 16 of the 19 women made it through the first week, of those eight made through “Ranger Assessment Phase”, but then fell short in the patrolling phase. The Post quote some anonymous fellow as saying that no RI wants to be the first to “pass” a woman. Those eight failed at least two patrols, along with 101 of their male peers.
Brig. Gen. James E. Rainey, the commandant of the U.S. Army Infantry School at Fort Benning, disputed that any Ranger instructor maliciously intended to hold female students back.
“The women did worse than men at patrolling,” he said. “That’s a fact.”
It’s really not surprising, they had the crap beat out of them worse than they ever had in their lives and then had to function as leaders and followers, alternately. Of course, the social engineers had to get their licks in;
Ellen Haring, a reserve Army colonel, expressed disbelief that none of the 19 women who originally qualified to try Ranger School has succeeded. She’s a leader of No Exceptions, a campaign organized by the non-partisan Truman Project and Center for National Policy that calls for all jobs in the military to be opened to women who qualify.
Haring said that the longer that Ranger School is left open to women, the more accepted it will be in the ranks and the more likely it is that a woman will graduate. She questioned how men who do not come from a combat arms background can pass Ranger School after attending a preliminary courses at Fort Benning, but no woman has.
If Haring’s name sounds familiar to you, she’s the female colonel who is suing the Army for not giving her the same leadership opportunities as men that we wrote about two years ago. Earlier this year, she chastised us for busting phonies because she has no valor and so we don’t have valor worth stealing. Last year, she complained that the military isn’t killing women at the same rate men are dying.
I’m all for women graduating from Ranger School as long as they have to meet the current standard. But, the Harings of the world want a graduate now, regardless of the standard, because the politics of the issue are more important than the soldiers. Watering down the standard will only cost lives down the road, but that doesn’t seem to matter to Haring.
Category: Army News
Look, you guys, I know that this comment is off topic but it’s worth it. You need to go see the video of the bombing of the Afghanistan parliament while it was in session. Just wait until you see the reaction of the gentleman who was speaking when the bomb detonated. Talk about coolness under fire and BIG BALLS.
Maybe the Army should start focusing on assembling the next female Ranger class.
With the scouting, train up, observation phase, introductory courses, special training, etc., it appears to take about a year.
Get moving, Army!
The next female Ranger class? They could always pull a few names off of the list of BUDs quitters and send them…
Years ago when I went through, there were some BUDS/pipeline guys in my class.
Some were strong, some not so strong.
Nature of the beast.
Females are taking Ranger School slots from the real warfighters – some in the Regiment have waited up to two years and served combat deployments before awarded one of these coveted slots.
“next female Ranger class”… Let Haring structure an all Female Ranger Class with all female RIs and command even create a new “Female Ranger” tab. Geez.
Kilgore6
What the Female Ranger Tab will look like ….
/sorry…..no I’m not.
http://i.imgur.com/LPfDkxx.jpg
Chip, jam it.
kins the point
Damn autocorrect., “kinda”
You owe the goobermint one shitty Dell monitor and keyboard due to a coffee explosion through my nose.
Kinda changes the meaning of getting a “slot” for Ranger School.
Ellen, until YOU attempt to pass Ranger School, you have absolutely NOTHING to say about the women who did make that attempt, OR the school itself.
You got nuthin’ gal. Go sit down.
Word.
Fine, If no one else will say it, I will.
(with no disrespect to the lovely ladies of TAH)
“Go MAKE ME A SAMMICH”!!!
Make your own damn sammich, you lazy clot!
Or just order out.
After reading the story, that was exactly my feeling, “When you try and succeed, then tell the rest so that they will know how to do it. If you fail, then tell us how it was for you.”
“If you didn’t try at all, just STFD and STFU.”
COL Haring doesn’t need to go to Ranger School. She already has a Ranger tab.
Unfortunately it’s a “Spotlight Ranger” tab.
I would think no RI wants to be the first to pass someone out of political correctness, and manages to get people killed because the RI bowed to social experimentation pressure.
^^^What he said^^^
The first RI that passes a female will probably post it to his Facebook page and receive an ARCOM.
Colonel Ellen Haring, please report to the county square…so you can kiss my ass!
Well, I said this earlier about Haring, here:
http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=58794&cpage=1#comment-2498714
And I’ll say it again: There are far too many women I can point to whose careers were quite successful without direction combat interaction.
I am tired of do-nothings like Haring waving their arms and whining about the ‘prejudice’ toward women in the military. I saw FAR more of it than she ever did, and I survived it intact. I am far more aware of what combat does to people in general than she is, and it has far less to do with getting promoted, which is her main whine, than it does with survival.
If the Ranger course is tough, it should be and it should not be changed to fit some idiotic menopausal broad’s fantasies. How many men were in that class, if 101 failed?
Haring is nothing but a middle-aged desk jockey with delusions of what might have been. I am TIRED OF HER IGNORANCE.
What she said!! Kudos, Ex-PH2–I can’t improve on that one bit!
Seriously, I want to see Haring sent through Ranger training.
Hell, I’ll volunteer to go through it myself. I could probably last longer than she would.
I’ll go with you. I’m 52, asthma, deteriorated discs, too damn many miles and I’ll still fun this broad into the ground! Somehow I think you’re gonna whoop my ass though lol
OK can we change that “fun” to “run”? it works either way
Deal. I have arthritis in my back and neck, too many miles myself, and the VA orthopedic specialist told me to not lift more than 25lbs and not run. So I walk a lot and currently manage 40lbs without complaining. Oh, yeah – I’m pushing 70. I think I can handle it.
Note: you can lose just as much weight and keep it off by walking as you can by running, and it stays off longer.
I truly want to see Haring butt-stomped into the ground.
She questioned how men who do not come from a combat arms background can pass Ranger School after attending a preliminary courses at Fort Benning, but no woman has.
Well, Ellen, the answer should be self-evident. Since some men come from the same non-combat arms background as the women and get tabbed, it must be because they are men, and, more specifically, physically able to handle the extreme physical requirements while dealing with a lack of caloric intake and sleep deprivation. It’s the same reason why an 18 year old male is more likely to complete the course than a 40 year old male. Biology sucks, but it is what it is.
I knew a guy that was not in combat arms that went to Ranger School. My CO made arrangements for him to go train with the Infantry for a couple of months. He did PT like a mad man and worked his ass off to get to that stage. He made it and got his tab. Nothing but training will help you.
Had an lt a decade ago that was como. Had his tab right out the gate, massive bastard, competed I best Ranger in 05 I think it was. His Ranger buddy injured his leg and on the blue bird ruck, lt Paterson carried both their ruck and nearly finished the march. I’ve known some hard asses in soft skill mos’, but ive never met a woman that would be carrying 2 Ranger standard rucks for an entire day.
All COL Haring need do is read these two recent articles — essentially “Male v. Female” …. regardless of how they self-perceive:
=====
Okay … not exactly “women & infantry” … but these two articles give a pretty good idea why women should not be fighting hand-to-hand against a male enemy soldier (“…just isn’t fair”).
http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/transgender-mma-fighter-destroys-female-opponent/
http://www.cagepotato.com/after-being-tkod-by-fallon-fox-tamikka-brents-says-transgender-fighters-in-mma-just-isnt-fair/
Even tough girls are easily overpowered by a man. The Army does not need them in Ranger School.
Fox (5′ 7″) left, Brents (5′ 3″) right:
http://cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/fallon-fox-tamikka-brents.jpg
Here’s a cheesecake photo of Fox:
Okay, question here: How often do modern soldiers fight hand-to-hand in combat? I thought that had become relatively rare? The Army doesn’t even issue bayonets anymore, does it?
It happens more than most people think. Maybe it more of a fight with detainees, but still basically hand to hand.
Jonn profiled two Marines who received the Navy Cross for fighting (and killing) some Taliban in hand to hand combat on this very blog.
Well, PN, you can read the book House to House by David Bellavia. He fought hand to hand with a bad guy and it came down to both trying to kill each other the good old fashion way, with knives and K-pots. David survived by being a little bit stronger and his will to live was a bit more strong, as well.
Or, you could read Black Hawk Down and find that many of the Rangers and DF guys ran to the green zone, in a running gun fight, after fighting for over 15 hours with little water or food and no sleep.
The Brits did a bayonet charge in Iraq, about 2004.
Or, as someone has mentioned before, those immortal words: Pointe du hoc
Col. Klink (Haring) thinks that watching GI Jane is the same thing as actually doing it, but, reality and those nasty standards get in the way.
We should shave her head, just to get her seeing how “tough” things really are.
Granted, that wouldn’t have much to do with anything, I’d just like to make her look like as big a douche-knuckle as she acts.
PN,
Women can excell in combat service support … even some combat support MOSs; they still might have an opportunity to directly engage the enemy in defense of their FSB, reacting to an ambush during convoy, etc.
However, CS and CSS have totally different missions than Infantry and the other Combat Arms — whose primary mission is to close with and destroy the enemy — what the Ranger School, the Ranger Tab, and Ranger Batts are all about.
Not taking away from a woman soldier’s ability to defend from a distance as a secondary or tertiary mission — but not the primary mission.
Marine Corporal Wooldridge received the Navy Cross. Part of the write up tells where he took an enemy’s rifle away as the barrell poked around the corner. He then clubbed the bad guy to death with it.
http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=29999&cpage=1
There’s a lot of stuff in life that isn’t fair, RGR, but pinning a 5’7″ middleweight against a 5’3″ bantamweight is hardly fair. However, since you brought that up, Floyd Mayweather has said he could beat Ronda Rousey, the ESPY awardee, MMA bantamweight FEMALE, IN BOXING, but NOT in MMA.
http://mmajunkie.com/2014/07/floyd-mayweather-apologizes-to-ufc-champ-ronda-rousey-after-earlier-snub
The FACT is that the women who should be recruited for Ranger training need to be comparable in size, and possibly in physical strength, to the men in Ranger training if they are to succeed. The women who ARE like that are not interested in joining the military and/or in getting themselves killed.
Dropping in the results of a bout between a man who is now a eunuch and a female a full head shorter and considerably lighter in weight than he is hardly presents a fair comparison. It is a biased approach.
Can we talk about YOUR low T?
If they Army wants this program to succeed, those in charge will have to find and recruit women who are physically larger and stronger. I was quite fit and strong in my 20s, and used to working long hours and carrying heavy loads, but I doubt seriously that I could have managed to survive the first few weeks of Ranger training.
And while we’re at it, why are you not pounding on the 101 men who failed the training?
PH2; what it comes down to is physiology, plain and simple. Women who are as strong as a man, able to hump the same loads as a man, and perform as good as a man in those circumstances aren’t women; they’re men. Women don’t have the same upper body strength as men, because they’re not built to. It’s tough enough for men, so the results are what I expected.
I think the reason that rgr1480 isn’t going after the 101 men that didn’t make it comes down to the fact that the only media hype is about a couple dozen women who couldn’t make it.
Re: media hype: I agree completely.
If the men fail, so what?
If the women fail, PREJUDICE!!!!!
And that pisses me off more than anything else. I give these women credit for trying. They need to be taught to be better at patrolling.
No one is pounding them because they tried and failed. They didn’t meet the standard. No one said it wasn’t fair lets lower the standard so more men pass. It’s a pass / fail course, as it should be. The men all played by the same rules, no exceptions, no press coverage.
I think the women played by the same rules, too, but as Old Trooper noted above, the media hype was about women not making it through the class. The failure of men in the same class was ignored.
Look, I know as well as the rest of you that this kind of training is NOT a fast track to promotion, no matter what that dumb broad Haring says or thinks.
I don’t know what the mortality rate is for any of the SpecOps people in all branches, but my guess is it’s pretty damned high. People like Haring do not understand that and I don’t know how to open their eyes to the ‘guaranteed to die on the job’ part of it, because that is what it boils down to.
Except Fallon Fox got knocked out by a female last year.
When I went to the Infantry Officer basic Course I was 29 years old, 6′ 180 lbs., running a 7-7.5 min/mile, bench pressing sets that were a little over 200 lbs, and squatting sets that were a little over 200 lbs. In IOBC I was considered old, a slow runner, and of average strength.
Out of my IOBC platoon, about 10 went directly to Ranger school. Of those, 1 graduated. That was after what was essentially 4 months of Ranger School prep at IOBC. I’m not saying that a woman physically and mentally can’t do it, but I am saying that she isn’t going to be your typical above average PT performer whose scoring 300+ on the APFT.
If memory serves, weren’t the 19 female Rangers-to-be given additional preparatory training not available to men? So they already got preferential treatment and still couldn’t pass.
Ellen Haring can eat shit. She’s about as valuable to the Army, and to America, as Bobby (master)Bateman.
The women went through a National Guard Ranger assessment course like some of those in the NG. Most active duty coming from a division or higher go through a pre-Ranger at their home station, or at least they used to.
Ellen, you need to decide whether you want to be an Army officer or a social worker. As it is, you’re a spectacular clusterfuck as both.
Yep. The geniuses at the five sided asylum are visited by the good idea fairy on a daily basis. Anybody there want to slam the door on these officers running their sucks in public like this. Kinda like LTC Masterbateman whom was comething for all our firearms.
Ellen, if it’s so important to you to run your mouth about women in the Army, why are you a Reservist instead of full-time Active?
Haring? She got off active duty to go on the Mommy Track, and then once the nest was empty tried to sue her way back ahead of her classmates.
Of course she’s an Academy grad. So is her husband. Who else only understands combat through a prism of self-advancement?
Well, that sounds distinctly like spoiled brat syndrome to me.
Welcome to the new Army. If you’re known to scream “ism” at the first slight, and willing to follow up with IG and EO complaints, you are going to be a COL at retirement. No one is willing to risk their career and write a marginal OER for them, regardless of what they deserve.
[…] Lilyea at This Ain’t Hell also examines the Post article, and he too remembers Haring. By the way, as you might expect for a bitchy, litigious slug […]
Female soldiers that want to be Rangers should just doctor their resumes and put on the tabs, scrolls, patches, tattoos, etc. Presto! They are Rangers.
Subsequently, real Rangers should feel flattered.
All of the above is consistent with COL. Haring’s previous writings.
I wrote her an email and she wrote me back. I replied, asking why she ignored my question. I never heard back from her again. Shocker. Peace out.
Well, all I have to say is that I went through the entire course twice, and since I broke an ankle in the Mountains the last time, that phase 3 times before I got my tab. And there are guys out there who went/got recycled more than that.
Heck, by the time I got out of the Mountains, I knew the lanes as well as the RIs. No sympathy here.
You said twice.
Back to back or did you go back to your parent unit and then return later?
When I went through it was fail twice
(same phase back to back) and you were out until your unit sent you back.
But times change.
And this is not at you Zulu, but I am going to assume that all of these women are enlisted.
Because if you are a company grade Officer, the longer you spend fucking around in Ranger School, your timeline passes you by.
These ladies have been in since April and are still at “Day One”.
Loosely translated, all of your year group peers move on to command slots while you play Ranger fuck-fuck games.
And for the record, I recycled Florida.
Perhaps Ellen (I refuse to address her by rank) would like to try out for this?
http://www.rangerette.com/
19 women failed to pass training under the current standards. That is 100% of those attempting. 101 men failed to pass training under the current standards. I do not know the percentage of men NO-GOs compared to men attempting. But something tells me it is high. Hopefully one of you Rangers can tell me how many are usually in a class rotation. The point is, 101 men failed. They tried, as did the women but they failed. No harm, no foul. Try again if they let you and prepare yourselves more. But it speaks to the issue of the inherit differences between males and females far more than to the standards.
I’m working from memory and hearsay, Sparks. But if I’m recalling correctly what I’ve heard, in rough numbers the usual all-male Ranger class has historically had somewhere between a 25% and 50% “washout” rate since the mid-1970s.
I read the article.
The three hanging around failed Darby twice.
And they are getting a “Day One” recycle.
Seems the standards are already changing. If I am not mistaken, you fail any phase twice….later.
Thank you.
And Hondo as well.
Maybe you guys didn’t read Zulu’s response here: http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=60502&cpage=1#comment-2569995
Saw that, Ex-PH2. Doesn’t matter. Each class has N “slots” for students. Out of each class, M students who start with that class do not graduate with that class. The washout rate for each class is M/N. Some students get hurt and cannot continue (I think 72hrs missed training used to be the “cut point” before getting medically recycled). Some don’t get a “GO” on a patrol, or fail another part of the course (other training activities take their toll as well). Some students have discipline issues. Some simply say “eff it” and quit. All are counted towards a particular class’s washout rate. If an individual is in 2 classes due to repeating a phase, he’ll count as part of the “washouts” for the class with which he starts – but will be among the graduates for the 2nd class. He’s still counted as a grad – but the fact that he “washed out” (for whatever reason) is also captured for statistical purposes. The bottom line: if I recall correctly, since the mid-1970s (and possibly before) between 1/4 and 1/2 of the trainees beginning a given Ranger class don’t graduate with that class. Some graduate with a later class, either by “recycling” immediately or returning to repeat the course later. Many others never complete the course. From the “big picture” perspective, recycles in the two later phases aren’t really a big issue – they don’t take a school slot from someone else, because due to washout in previous phases there’s going to be space to accommodate them. But since each class has a max size, recycles in the 1st phase (and those returning for a 2nd try) take a slot from another prospective student. And I believe the first phase is where most of the recycles occur – though I could be wrong. The course is designed to test an individual’s durability and resilience as well as their ability to learn infantry and leadership tactics and techniques. That is by design. On the battlefield, both durability and resilience are critical. Ability isn’t particularly useful if due to injury, fatigue, or… Read more »
I’m not arguing the point, Hondo.
I find it disturbing that the focus is not on the fact that the female candidates tried but did not meet the standard, but rather on the fact that they were female at all.
I’m quite aware that the object of Ranger school, or any other specialized course like thiss, is to find the best of the best who will survive going deep into enemy turf and the murderious encounters that take place there.
Maybe you can find the mortality rate for all special warfar groups like this, e.g., Rangers,SEALs, Marines equivalent, because that is what should be at the forefront of this discussion, not who has a penis and who doesn’t.
It is nothing but mind-boggling stupidity to think that this training is meant to promote people faster, which is what Haring is howling about. That nonsense has to be stopped.
Agreed. While completing Ranger school might be a minor point in an officer’s favor when being considered for promo, outside of perhaps a few career fields (Infantry, maybe Cav Scouts, perhaps a few others) it’s hardly a “make-or-break” item – and I’m not even positive about those. It’s entirely possible for people to make GO without it, much less O6.
The lady is grandstanding for political purposes, plain and simple. And if she and her allies get their way, my great fear is that it will mean more body bags coming home during our next war – maybe a lot more.
Then we must find some way to shut Haring’s yap. Without being mean-spirited, of course.
Out of the 10 or so from my IOBC class in 1995 who went directly to Ranger School, 1 graduated. That was after 4 months in IOBC, essentially performing the Ranger School tasks graded at a Ranger School standard, but without the constant sleep deprivation, decreased caloric intake, and not getting dropped or recycled for a no-go on a field craft event. At IOBC graduation, we were all physically able to meet the requirements and had the requisite training to complete the tasks. It’s the combination of trying to do all of it while wet, cold, exhausted, hungry, and without much of a break between events, along with the increased chance of injury, that kills the students.
IOBC is northing more than forced socialization and Ranger School train up.
Ok dumb questions from the crusty air force retiree, but here goes:
1. How many start Ranger School on day 1?
2. How many graduate?
Thanks 🙂
Not a stupid question at all Sarge. My Engineer Officer Basic course sent 36(!) Lieutenants to Ranger School. 18 passed, including those who recycled and later passed. Engineer Officers is probably a bad metric to use (less infantry tactics exposure than the average ranger student, career maybe not on the line as much) but that’s the stat I remember.
From what I remember seeing, given platoons could lose anywhere from 10% if they were a cohesive group that pulled for each other to 50% if they were constantly fighting each other and backstabbing for a given phase (figure there are 3 phases).
My only comment is that I admire the ladies who tried and failed and my hat’s off to the three who are still trying. I may not agree with the political winds that allow them to take the course, but I can’t fault someone who’s trying to be a better leader.
The problem I see with it is that she keeps using her status as an Army Reserve Colonel when she speaks out about this.
It doesn’t matter if its not her primary job. She is still a Commissioned Officer in the US Army. Someone needs to tell her that she’s representing herself as a Colonel when she talks about this, not as a public citizen or a “retired” officer.
She’s using her Commissioned Officer status to speak politically on matters that are political. As far as I see, everything with her name on it has “Colonel” and/or “Army Reserve” included, plus that spiffy picture of her too.
Fuck this Puta…
I’d still nail her though she looks good
I am surprised somebody did not really post this yet…
https://youtu.be/0HmT5jqy-iE
Why aren’t there ANY women on the service academies’ football, basketball, lacrosse etc.. teams?
Damn sexist-women-hating-pigs!