Obama, Distrust, and the Armed Forces
I recently wrote a piece [at American Thinker] about the Jade Helm military operations scheduled to be conducted across large areas of the U.S. this summer. A few irresponsible conservative web sites are using these routine military training activities to frighten citizens in the selected areas into believing the federal government is planning an armed takeover of their locales. I warned in that previous article that neither the training operations nor the alarmed citizenry are anything new; the U.S. Army has conducted such training for decades and there has always been some civil protest. I made jumps into civilian areas and ran ops back in the 1960’s. But this time, through the wide reach of the Internet, the fear factor among the citizenry has been driven through the roof.
I’m a conservative, registered Republican who has been a contributor of conservative themed articles here at American Thinker for a decade. I’m also a ground combat veteran of Vietnam who spent much of his post-college career marketing to the military, a job that took me to Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine installations all across the country and overseas. I have shared many meals and happy hours with enlisted personnel and officers, during which many frank, forthright discussions were held regarding politics and the political leadership of the times.
Not once in almost five decades of my association with the military have I heard any serving member or veteran agree that he would take up arms against fellow Americans to impose the political will of a sitting president. Conversely, I’ve heard many times that an order to do so would be considered unlawful and refusable. When the Jade Helm article was cross-posted at my favorite soldiers’ blog, This Ain’t Hell, I was gratified to see that the majority of comments there, almost all from still-serving service members or veterans, validated that belief.
That was in stark contrast to the reaction here at American Thinker. Comments here were almost universally negative with my denial that the operation was a federal takeover of Texas and Utah by Obama being heavily ridiculed. Even readers who normally post supportive comments on my writings, sometimes even thanking me for stating their views, called me a naïve fool and a dupe of the Obama administration. It was a bit of a downer until those military comments began coming in later at the soldier’s blog, reaffirming my faith in my fellow warriors. Clearly, distrust of Obama is very strong on both sites; the difference being the troops trust our troops.
One of the evidentiary cudgels that was used on me here at AT was the militarization of local and state level police departments in recent years and how those forces, using military weapons would join with the military forces of Jade Helm to suppress, oppress, even imprison dissenters in Texas and Utah. I found that ironic in that I have written articles here in the past critical of this heavy arming of civilian law enforcement. On that topic, the primarily civilian readership here at AT and the military followers of TAH were in agreement that this practice needs to be curtailed. It was only some law enforcement officers at both sites who accused me of ignorance or treachery and even among that cohort, some LEO’s agreed with my premise.
Today the Obama administration, in a move no doubt attributable to the increasing level of conflict between law enforcement and the black community, announced it will cease supplying certain surplus military weaponry, such as tracked armored vehicles, weaponized aircraft and grenade launchers among numerous other items including, for suspect reasons, bayonets. Some surplus weaponry already distributed may be recalled and future use of military weaponry may be restricted by federal guidelines. Of course, the administration is hiding behind the skirts of a federal commission that recommended these changes in federal policy after a lengthy study that was initiated after the Ferguson incident.
If we Americans really want to get mad about something, shouldn’t it be the fact that the Obama administration was unresponsive to citizens’ concerns on militarization of local law enforcement until it became a black issue? For example I rather suspect that the inclusion of bayonets on the federal list of proscribed weapons is likely due more to the symbolism of rifles with fixed bayonets having been used in black riot control in the past than for any heightened lethality lent to police armories, an indicator of the real priorities of this administration as it winds to a close.
When I wrote criticizing police militarization, many readers expressed concerns that those weapons would be used against the public in an Obama coup. What do you say now? Do you suppose Obama would quit arming local police departments with some of the most lethal and effective tools of civil suppression if he were planning future local takeovers? Wouldn’t he want those paramilitary police forces armed just as well as the troops they’ll be assisting once Jade Helm commences? OK, I know I’m asking for it with those questions so:
Ready on the Left; ready on the Right; ready on the firing line; commence fire!
Crossposted at American Thinker
Category: Politics
well written. I must confess surprise that so much of the conservative base thinks the military would blindly follow an unconstitutional scheme. then again, you can find stupid people anywhere on any side of any issue.
I’m sorry, but how many members here are active duty? Since only three guys here recognized that the stryker was designed to carry a M2 .50 cal or Mk19 40mm grenade launcher as its main weapon system, which the exception of the MGS mobile gun system which have a 105mm main gun, I assume most of you guys ETSed quite a while ago.
So my point is there is a new type of Soldier in our Army right now. This is 0bama’s Army, and many of the guys in the service since 2009 are here to go to college and NOTHING else. The post 9/11 GI Bill is their only goal, and they think the constitution is whatever 0bama tells them it is.
Besides, to get a war, you don’t need a declaration of war. You just need to put our Army in a position in which somebody is going to shoot at us, and when that happens we will certainly shoot back and do a battledrill 1 on their asses and outflank their egos out of existence.
Bottom line: I don’t think Green Helmet is a big deal, but I frigginguarantee you 0bama is up to no good, and he knows field officers and senior NCOs are the only thing in his way to have a complaint military.
Why did he back track on having a federal police “as powerful as the army”?
Something is afoot, and it ain’t good.
Seriously? I retired from the Army in 2013. I’m not sure what Army your in, but trust me, there does not exist a situation where the Army would turn on its populace. I’m guessing your a young troop and that’s fine, but you’d have to convince a whole lot of senior Officers and NCOs to violate their oath. Never happen. Senior officer and NCOs keep the Army organized, trained, and supplied. What your saying makes no sense.
You reading comprehension sucks. I said field officers and senior NCOs are the only thing in the way of 0bama, and you just repeated the same thing.
Field officers, MAJ to COL, are very good in my opinion. Junior ane company grade vary.
Senior officers, as in general officers, are political animals and are not to be trusted under any ciscircumstances.
And if you think civvies can shoot on infantry dudes and get away with it, your are sadly wrong.
I don’t know what MOS you are, I’m guessing POG and that’s fine,but our RoE are clear only in one thing, our right to self defense.
Yef, you mentioned the other day that you’re a foreigner so perhaps we can forgive you for overlooking the number of infantry “dude” veterans there are in the civilian population of America, many of them with combat experience, perhaps significantly more than you and your infantry dudes.
You’re cocky and that’s a good trait in soldiers up to a point. However this is one situation in which your young mouth may be overloading your ass, as we old soldiers say.
Yef, I want to give you a tidbit of friendly advice before you go any further: DON’T go through this life sporting an alligator mouth while you only have a hummingbird’s ass behind it, your ass will get handed back to you in pieces time and time again if you do!
First, I’ve been retired ten years. Having said that, I have forgotten more about Stryker, MGS, NBCRV, the DVH line, and Abrams than you will ever know. So, get off your high horse about our knowledge and yours, it is only a good way to embarrass yourself.
Second, I think you are for the most part wrong on flag grade officers. yes, they have sold a piece of their souls to get to that point, and are accomplished political animals. To think a large percentage of them would abrogate their oaths to the constitution in just silly. I also think you are incorrect in regard to the junior Soldiers. They really are no different to the quality that was around ten or twenty years ago. In truth, the reason they are the way they are is a weakened staff NCO and NCO corps after ten years in the fight. Soldiers going back to the legions have been as nasty and comfortable as their NCO’s allow them to be.
As to your opinion of the current occupant of the white house, I would agree that he is about the worst thing to happen to our country in the last forty to fifty years. And yet, after four years of failure, our citizenry voted him back in. Do I think he would stay if he could? Absolutely. But I think he knows not only would the military mutiny, you would have an uprising in the streets. I think he’s okay with getting out and rolling into a Bill Clinton gig, running a charity with the primary purpose of making his life very, very comfortable.
While it’s true that the military is aslways going to represent its population and young Americans are more liberal, the fact is that the military still is overwhelmingly conservative.
There has always been a demographic of the military who considered service to be nothing more than a social program. The fact remains that Obamas 8 years of asshattery will do no more harm to the ethos of the military than thw 12 years of shit under Carter and Clinton.
The Empty suit infesting the office will be ousted in 2016.
Well, I retired last September. Joined in 1984, and served under 5 Presidents. Never heard anyone in all that time make any kind of statement about taking over from civilians, and I was in right after Desert Storm when they gutted the Army and Les Aspin was SecDef. Those days make today look like the playground. Are you an NCO? Just asking because myself and my NCOs coming up would have squashed any kind of talk about taking over right into the ground. We swore the oath, and any people ordering a takeover would kinda fall into the “all enemies, foreign and domestic” category…
I have have been rolling my eyes for weeks over this Jade Helm buffoonery. When I try to point out to the more extreme of my friends and acquaintances the nonsense of their stance, I am called a “dupe”, and worse. When I point out that we have carried out military exercises FAR larger than this in the past, and that I have been involved in many of them, AND that they often include foreign troops on American soil,then the real fun begins. These people are far to wedded to their ideology to be sensible.
Poe, sorry to say it, but it seems that the vast majority of commentators at AT are idiots. Reading through just the first hundred or so comments was… breathtaking. As someone with some conservative politics it was a genuinely embarrassing experience. I’d expect the comments section there to have shown up on InfoWars or something, not AT.
68Whiskey, I’ve been writing for American Thinker for more than a decade and this article generated more comments (500+) than anything I’ve written previously. Unfortunately most of them referred to me as an uninformed idiot or worse.
And those were commenters who normally praise my work. This Jade Helm issue really has people irrationally fearful of the federal government. I think we can thank Info Wars and its ilk for much of that.
However, as a conservative, I feel that it’s a good thing for citizens to possess a healthy distrust of their government because a watchful and distrustful citizenry is a good bulwark against tyranny.
I just get a little impatient with the ding-a-lings.
Poe,
Perhaps now that you have written 2 articles about Jade Helm at AT, and now both times you have been attacked by the readers (aka commentators) it might be time to rethink continuing to write there.
I gave up on AT after seeing so much anti Veteran basura in their comments. Once Bush was out of office the conservatives turned on OIF OEF Veterans and we are not useful to their politics.
Please think of all the work you have put into blogging there only to get attacked vilely by their readers twice. They are fair weather supporters only and I think you are seeing how quickly they will turn on you because you point out that their fears or beliefs are insane.
Jade Helm= the 9/11 troof movement for the right wing.
Oh, gollibill, barry! Stick your tail between your hind legs and go hide, willya? So Poetrooper should shut off because he’s been subjected to disagreements with his op-ed pieces TWICE! That’s what you think? I take it you’re afraid of everything.
If Poetrooper ran off and hid because some bunch of braindead skanks violently disagree with him EVERY time his op-ed pieces say something they don’t like, then all of us would have to go hide in caves, too.
You haven’t seen or understood anything. You’re afraid of your own shadow. When YOU, Barry, are so worried about what other people think that you stick your head up your own rectal sphincter, as you have done here, it marks you for what you are.
Congratulations, Barry, you just showed all of us – ALL OF US – that you’re a sniveling, whiny coward. You’d suck up to anyone, just to get the crumbs off the table. You epitomize the whipped cur.
Some guy back in them there Good Old Days in the 18th century said the following:
“I may not agree with what you said, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
Read that many, many times, until you absorb what it means. The man’s name was Patrick Henry.
Freedom isn’t free. It’s another word for nothing left to lose.
My advice to Poetrooper is ‘Carry on’.
Alas, the foaming-at-the-mouth wingnuts on both sides of the political spectrum will never let facts, logic, and common sense get in the way of their looney-tunes fantasies. I remember the military coup rumors during the “Blowjob Willie” years, that never happened, and the loons on the left said the same about GW Bush. The U.S. Military has far too many members that take their oath of service seriously for the current clown krewe to use them for any cheap stunts on US soil, and with FEMA’s incompetence on display during Katrina and Sandy, I regard them about as highly as I do the TSA.
I suspect we are seeing the consequences of fear-mongering on both the Left and the Right. Reasoned discussion requires thought – a skill and a habit to few have developed or exercised.
And – for the record – I’m civilian. Was waiting for my “greetings” letter when Nixon stopped the draft. My father, two of my brothers, and my son served, however. So I don’t know how I count in the mix.
The thing is, I’m not surprised. SO many conservatives have such a seething hatred of Obama, they’re literally willing to believe ANYTHING that may justify that rage! Anything.
Someone on Facebook today posted some conspiritard website claiming they received information about some unidentified Recon Marine walking away and quitting over the “Jade Helm” orders.
No sourcing. No identifying information. Just the unsubstantiated claim.
Yet, these are the same people who salivated and had seizures over Harry Reid’s unsubstantiated claim about Romney’s taxes from an unidentified source.
Rabid “conservatives” have begun to irritate me almost as much as rabid “liberals.” In their froth-flecked fury, they have forgotten objectivity, they have forgotten truth, they have forgotten integrity.
All they want is to scare everyone else into being as rabid as they are, and they’re willing to believe that members of the military – folks who have sworn to protect them, their nation, and the Constitution – will turn on the people!
I hate them. Really.
Nicki, I’ve never seen one thing on that loon site that was sourced. All a single annonamous source with a story about someone else, or a random picture of a military vehicle on a flat bed. All are proof the the Marines are coming to Texas to kill people.
And there’s only one courageous Recon Marine who stood up to the tyrants and said, “NO WAY!”
These fucking losers are counting on the public’s inability to discern credible information.
This one just hit my in box, and it’s typical. Yup, they are all coming to kill us.
Anonymously from the Operation Jade Helm And Beyond inbox: Hey, I’m from Cheney, Washington, and I just saw some pretty heavy machinery- military, mostly- heading towards Fairchild AFB. They have those large trucks that .50 caliber machine guns be mouted on top of. There were at least fifteen of them in a line. And this is not a normal time for new machinery to come into the base. And it’s never been in that high of numbers. I figure that Jade Helm is coming to Washington. What do you think?
Nicki, very well said.
And I hate them too.
OC
My proof that this is all nonsense is the tinfoil hat brigade’s insistence that everything revolves around Walmart. Honestly, if some Pentagon planning team managed to come up with Walmart as the center of gravity for a government takeover, they deserve a significant re-do.
I remember Karl Denninger wrote a piece several years ago about the nutter fringe conspiracy believing group, and his basic premise was: “When the SHTF, you idiots are all going to die.” (And by “you idiots”, I am referring to the nutter fringe… not the esteemed dickweeds here.)
Anyway, as I recall his post, it was essentially saying that being gullible is not a good survival skill.
I had not been to his site since I don’t know when, but I went there last night to see what he had to say about Jade Helm, if anything. It looks like his needle has moved a shade towards “nutter”, more than I expected. We are living in strange times.
kind of like the anti-gun acquaintances who say “boy, if the SHTF, I’m headed for your place because you have guns!” (and for some reason tend to get upset when informed that if, indeed, the SHTF anyone showing up to try and take any guns I may or may not own is defined as a “target”.)
I was conversing with a prepper community last night, and they are ‘absolutely certain’ of two things: 1. There is going to be a total collapse of some kind, and 2. They will have to fight to keep their compound. They have no intention of accepting strangers at the gates, as it were. An awful lot of folks seem to be playing by J. Rawles’ ‘handbook.’
I’m new to prepping and have some friends that are preppers. We all agree that those forums have quite a few nutters on them that SHTF is what they are hoping for. I hope that I never have to use my preps for anything other than a power outage. I also think that they find the craziest people they can find for the show Doomsday Preppers.
I’ve been a prepper for about nine years. I’ve determined that other preppers are great people — individually. It’s when they decide to go what I call ‘full bunker’ (that’s prepper ‘full retard’), particularly in a group, that things get strange in a hurry.
I sometimes work with a guy who’s a stage-4 conspiritard. He’s a captain at a neighboring station who was one of my mentors when I was a brand-new pup riding backwards on the engine (before he lost his mind), and it breaks my heart to say this because he’s a very good guy and he’s always done right by me. I’ll admit, I don’t trust the Glorious Leader or his cronies any more than I’d trust a rattlesnake in my bathroom, but I do trust that if he ever made the attempt, the overwhelming majority of the military below the rank of Major General, excluding (master)Bateman would tell him to eat shit.
But the guy in question believes every tinfoil bullshit claim as if The Lord Jesus Christ Himself personally told him it was Gospel. Chemtrails, FEMA camps, 9/11 inside job, war for business, Freemasons, you name it. Every time he tells me about it, I just have to smile and nod and say, “Uh…thanks, Cap’…that’s good to know.”
Honest to God, he once showed me that one dumbass website, maybe you’ve heard of it, that had him utterly convinced that Obama, Queen Elizabeth, and other prominent leaders are secretly alien reptiles in human form. Seriously, how do you respond to THAT shit? I mean, I openly consider the Glorious Leader to be a lying shitweasel, an idiot with delusions of genius, a giant pussy, and a complete asshole, but I’m also certain he’s just as 100% Homo Sapiens as I am.
Like I said, it’s a sad case. He’s a great guy, but if I ever meet his mind, I’m going to let it know that he’s looking for it and that it REALLY needs to go back home.
‘secret alien reptiles’???
Dammit! I want to know WHO HAS BEEN SNOOPING INTO MY FILES AGAIN.
The Snake Wars don’t take place for another 935 years. Why do these morons NOT understand that? Why? Why?
What do I have to do to keep them from stealing my files and spreading incorrect info about the WHEN and the WHERE??
And I have been SO careful to NOT give away the farm!
Ex-PH2, what about time travel, maybe they’re caching things right now as we speak and post?
Well, Proud, considering that my man Boronski has quickly learned about time travel himself and is willing to go to any length necessary to drive out the alien reptiles (Snakes), who are actually descendants of velociraptor-like critters from another Universe, I don’t think we have anything to worry about.
Do you?
Not yet, but I still keep my M666 Plasma gun from my days as an Apollo Mission Door Gunner handy JUST IN CASE!! 😉
Well said Sir;
I have soothed many people about the Jade Helm thing too. Even a Marine with recent service had fallen into the trap of a huge arrest and confinement order being given here in Texas.
Supposedly they were using a closed Walmart for a staging area and the parking lot was going to be the first of a series of pens set up to hold thousands of us regular citizens.
I tell them the same thing, that it is highly doubtful that any Military member will do anything of the sort.
Ask him if he’s ever heard of the revolt at Sobibor, Thunderstixx.
Also, you could point out that there are 310 million people in this country and the total square footage of all Walmarts and Costcos and Targets will be insufficient to hold us all. Definitely not enough bathrooms, either.
EX PH2,
Looking at a lot of the people who lurk at walmart an indoor tiolet, or for that mater any facilty isnt considered a necessity
Heehee! Too true!
I think you hit upon an appropriately interesting component of the constant vitriolic attacks on the presidency by opposition partisan political operatives. Much of what you find incredulous regarding the perception of the troops by those on the right was already exposed by those on the left when Bush was president.
My politics are decidedly more independent than yours are Poetrooper, but I respect your consistently thoughtful approach. I would submit had you been visiting liberal sites during the Bush years you would have been surprised to see so many liberals believing their military would crush them to keep Bush in power. Or perhaps you would have written it off to liberal stupidity, I would submit it’s perhaps not stupidity but a somewhat predictable reaction by a relatively low-intellect electorate on both sides of the aisle.
Those people who are only able to see single issue politics make up a large component of the base for the left and the right. They are not the sharpest knives in the butcher block, nor are the often interested in the more complex realities of modern political expediency. It’s why single issues are able to drive primary selections, because single issue morons vote according to that single issue without consideration of their candidate’s overall fitness for office.
When you review what is written about Obama day in and day out by his conservative critics the vitriol mirrors that which was said about Bush by demented liberal columnists intent on sharing their hatred with their readers. Conservatives learned to use the same technique and now you have found that those you thought understood the larger picture have in fact only understood the words of distrust, dissent, and hatred.
Welcome to the real world my friend, it’s sadly less nuanced than you thought and filled with far more single issue dumbasses than one can imagine.
Well said, VOV. While I’d like to think that conservatives have less of a wacky fringe than liberals (maybe wishful thinking on my part), I can’t deny that there seems to be a good bit of Obama Derangement Syndrome out there.
I think part of the virulent reaction that you refer to as ODS comes from the other conspiracy theory favorite, the collapse of the economy. This seems to be the favorite TEOTWAWKI scenario at the moment — that the Fed money printing situation will finally collapse the economy and we will devolve into chaos. It goes from there into martial law, FEMA camps, and the whole bit.
The mental disorder that we all knew as BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) has mutated and is now manifested as ODS – Obama Derangement Syndrome.
Related disorders: Palin, Limbaugh, Fox News, Reid, Pelosi, etc…
I know a lady who is one of the sweetest and most generous people I know. Unless you bring up Obama. The things that come out of her mouth would shock a sailor. It is truly a disturbing dichotomy.
In my best Dr. Evil impersonation I say “Unless of course the governement only uses Special Ops Soldiers who have sworn allegiance to “Hydra” ? Hmmmmmm? while extending my left pinky finger to the corner of my mouth.
I’d invite the AT nutjobs to check back with us on 21 January 2017, when President Cruz (or Rubio, or Clinton, or whoever) occupies the Oval Office, when President Obama is now Former President Obama, and no coup has ever occurred. Because mark my words, that’s exactly how it’s going to play out.
And for the record, I too am a conservative Republican. I might vote for the occasional Democrat on the local level (usually a judge), but the last Democrat I voted for on the national level was “Scoop” Jackson.
Scoop Jackson was also the last Democrat I voted for. He would not recognize his party today.
Heck, JFK and Truman wouldn’t recognize their party today– they’d call ’em commies.
I’ve gotten in online discussions with liberal moonbats who will CUSS about what traitors to their party the likes of Sam Nunn and Zell Miller were, you cannot reason with a wingnut or a moonbat, PERIOD!
This whole Jade Helm fiasco is typical of a) the spread of not just information, but disinformation and outright lies nowadays and b) a perfect example of the disconnect between civilian and military. People who know the military, know that this whole idea was implausible at best (to be VERY diplomatic) but with so few having actually served, there is a massive percentage of the populace whose only knowledge of the military comes from Hollywood. We have all seen the crazed-vet, robotic order-follower stereotypes foisted on us for the last 50 years – even somewhat sane , rational folks could easily believe the Jade Helm scenario in that context.
The extreme Left warned that GW Bush was going to invalidate the elections and crown himself king in 2009. The Right fretted that Clinton was going to do the same thing in 2001. The pendulum swings from extreme to extreme.
The lefties got their panties in a wedgie because they were afraid that Reagan was going to try for a 3rd term. The same thing happened with Slick Willie – 3rd term gossip. They didn’t seem quite so upset over that.
Just glad there is a term limit on that job.
I SO wish there were term limits for legislators as well!
kind of reminds me of the old cadence,,
my boots are heavy and my pants are tight..
my balls are swinging from left to right…
politics
Well written article, Poetrooper.
I have a serious question, that hopefully might elicit an answer. You say that soldiers agree, pretty much across the board, that they wouldn’t take up arms against Americans. But how high up do you think that resolve would go? I ask, because it appears that at higher levels of military command, the loyalty to the Constitution shifts to loyalty to the President, and of course, we’ve seen obvious changes by the Administration to encourage that. So I guess my question is this: will it fall on a platoon leader to refuse an order to attack Americans? How about a company commander? Battalion or Brigade? Who will be the leader, at what level of military organization, will ruin his career and become a criminal in the eyes of the law when he refuses the command of his superiors?
Not following an illegal order is not a criminal act. Following one is. I again point to the at least yearly (some every 3-6 mo.) manditory LOAC Training EVERY millitary member must take. We have gone to great lengths to ensure our boys and girls understand this. Granted there are always going to be some idiots, but by and large the majority of them get it.
Let me phrase it a different way. The military is charged with protecting our nation against enemies both foreign and domestic. The ‘current administration’ identifies a subgroup (pick your favorite) as being a domestic enemy, and orders the military to secure a particularly troublesome area. Legal order, yes or no? Who decides? And what do the soldiers do in the meanwhile?
NO!
First there are: Posse Comitatus Act and its amendments
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
Which basically limits the ability of the Federal Government from using the US military for law enforcement purposes.
While there is the Insurrection Act
Link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_Act
One would have a really high bar to cross since the state and local authorities are given first crack at containing the issue, and only then may the President act.
SO, with VERY few exceptions unless the local government AND State Governor have thrown in the towel, the President is barred from sending in the troops and any orders by him and his staff would there for be illegal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans
There are few if any governments that have not, at one time or another, oppressed some or all of their citizens. They use two groups to do that: the police and the military. I want to believe our military won’t fire on us, also. But I refuse to bank on it.
As a rule, when that happens, the leader tends to not be a golf addict that treats the police and military like stupid thugs and umbrella holders.
When it comes to the trust of the military by the conservative right, this fear can come from one simple survey that was infamously known as “The 29 Palms Survey” administered by Navy Lieutenant Commander Ernest Guy Cunningham as part of his war college thesis on May 10 1994. This survey was given to 300 active duty Marines at 29 Palms.
This survey,http://www.29palmssurvey.com/survey.html asked 46 questions. It was the last question that has sparked so much fear and controversy ever since.
The last question:
The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. A thirty (30) day amnesty period is permitted for these firearms to be turned over to the local authorities. At the end of this period, a number of citizen groups refuse to turn over their firearms. Consider the following statement: I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government.
The results of that question:
42.3 percent strongly disagreed with this statement; 19.3 percent disagreed; 18.6 percent agreed; 7.6 percent strongly agreed; and 12.0 percent had no opinion.
It is the 7.6% of those that strongly agreed that has scared so many Americans throughout the years, and I can understand that fear. This survey came on the heels of Waco and Ruby Ridge. Two federal screw ups that should of never ended the way they did.
By all means I am not one of those that fall into the Alex Jones/Info Wars camp, but I can simply understand where their fear emanates from.
That survey is interesting, is there a full disclosure of results?
Just for the record, some of those questions IMO were worse than the last..For instance #39 I feel the President of the United States has the authority to pass his responsibilities as Commander-in-Chief to the U.N. Secretary General.
Ummm, not on a cold day in hell!
Here is his whole thesis, with results, linked to a .pdf document:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a293790.pdf
Fascinating, thank you! FYI’ I am the black sheep of the family, all Army cept for my AF time lol.
OIF, thanks for the link. The wording of many of the questions on that test make it clear that it was constructed by a non-professional researcher, particularly the last and most important one, #46. That question would have been much more revealing had it said, “I would obey an order to fire…” rather than just, “I would fire on…” because it would indicate that a decision already has been made somewhere in the command structure to fire upon citizens. How that might alter the results I have no idea but I think it would yield a more realistic response to the question at hand because it injects the issue of lawful/unlawful orders. Also, I think you could safely add most of the 12% “no opinion” cohort to the “would not fire” group. If they cannot decide in the relative calm of a quiet testing room wouldn’t that indecision be magnified in the highly stressful environment of a confrontation with citizens? Indecision most frequently results in inaction. Consider then that in a ten man squad, six, perhaps seven (42.3%+19.3%+12%=73.6%) won’t fire, and only one, (7.6%) definitely would while two more (18.6%) think it’s OK when taking the test but who may be less sure when confronted with the reality and being urged not to or even being physically restrained by their squad mates. Or look at it from the squad leader’s perspective. How would you like to be the one urging your men to use their weapons on citizens when you know that six to seven of them are not likely to follow your order and just might be inclined to take you out if you continue to issue an order they consider unlawful? Frankly, I think most squad leaders would be in that 60% to 70% who would not obey such an order. I haven’t been on a military installation in ten years but I still communicate with many of those who are and it is my opinion that American citizens have no reason to fear their armed forces. What I do know is that Obama and the Pentagon princes… Read more »
“I’ve heard many times that an order to do so would be considered unlawful and refusable. ”
Exactly. Unlawful and refusable from any president, but particularly from this one.
Taking over the U.S. by taking Texas first is like taking over Russia by launching a campaign to take Siberia in the winter first.
As an aside, there is an ISIS training camp less than five miles south of the Texas border and other unconfirmed facilities at other areas south of the border. That should be looked at before thinking this is a takeover.
Hell, if this really ever did happen why do I get images of a poker game/BBQ between the troops and the locals with the radio to one side and one of the guys picks it up every now and then to give a Sit Rep of ‘still moving forward NSTR’…
My theory on the “nutter fringe” is this: The Nutter Fringe (NF) always exists, always has existed and always will exist. What makes it different today is that the internet has allowed disparate NF individuals to share information and nutty conspiracy theories much faster than in the old days when it was done on dial-up bulletin boards (who remembers those?) or through leaflets and pamphlets.
The other thing about the NF is that in a country where the major political battles are fought in an environment of near parity, a 46% Left/Democrat/Liberal and 46% Right/Republican/Conservative, the NF groups naturally gravitate to the party that is out of power, because this gives each group what it wants:
What the out-of-power party wants is to be back IN power and what the NF wants is recognition, and the “legitimacy” that comes from allying itself with a major, mainstream group.
In a 46/46 political environment, the out-of-power party knows it only needs a few additional votes to push their ball over the goal line, and the NF groups bring both numbers and also the kind of “enthusiasm” that borders on an obsessive disorder.
And as said above, what the NF groups get is the prestige, status and attention that comes with being attached to a major or legitimate political organization.
The good news is that as soon as the out-of-power party gets back in power, the first thing they do is break their contacts with the NF groups whom they no longer need, so the actual influence these groups have is pretty ephemeral.
Obviously what happens is that the NF groups then align themselves with their former enemies in the formerly dominant party that is now the out-of-power party.
The bad news is that as long as we are a 46/46 nation, the NF groups are going to continue to be a presence, albeit mostly an annoying one, in American political life.
I don’t think this penchant that Hollywood the Industry has for producing dystopian movie series like the Hunger Games and Divergent helps to dissipate the panicky fringes’s ideas at all.
There is that part of each of us, including everyone here, that gets a tiny boost of adrenaline out of being scared silly over something that doesn’t really exist or that common sense tells you is unlikely to happen or is harmless.
The chemtrails people, for example, know nothing about the instant freeze of water vapor coming out of a jet engine at 35,000 feet, where the temperature difference is something like +400F down to -120F in the blink of an eye. Therefore, even if you try to enlighten them, they don’t believe you because THEY DON’T WANT TO BELIEVE YOU.
When I made those frozen bubbles, the outdoor temperature was so cold that they froze within 3 seconds of being produced. That reality is something the mindset of the Nutter Fringe won’t accept. They revel in their paranoia; they wait for bad things to happen so that they can say ‘See? I was right!’
They don’t want reality.
It’s too inconvenient for words.
Very well said and I agree. In fact, let’s go further and say that a huge portion of the “prepper” community as well as others who profess to fear an imminent government collapse and/or fascist/communist takeover (adjust according to political beliefs) is actually just indulging in a comforting fantasy where the mundane, everyday problems of the world go away as we fight against The Big Evil.
I like a good post-apocalypse movie just as much as anyone but the reality is that when disaster strikes, we don’t go all Mad Max, we actually come together and help our neighbors. We see this every time there’s a hurricane, a flood, a tornado, a massive blizzard, etc.
Western Civilization is a lot more resilient than the paranoids give it credit for being. That’s been proven through wars and natural disasters all over the planet.
I’m going to echo Ex-PH2 with this comment, but take it one step further. There is a section of the Survivalist/Prepper community that wants all the rules of an orderly society to go away so they can take — and KILL — with impunity. THAT is why I won’t get involved with any of these “walled compound” types. Scratch the surface, and some very ugly, dark fantasies start to ooze out.
*Chuckle* Today I had a serious reminder that I am turning in to old witch. Neighbors across the street are moving, well this morning (before coffee mind you) some guy stops by and starts emptying their trash can. I calmly went out and asked him what the hell did he think he was doing. Glad my daughter was here cuz the rest was on video, between threatening to rob us to burning the house down… it was funny!
And no I do not think he was serious.
Remember the 1960s, when the threat of nuclear war was very, very real?
I grew up in central Illinois near what was called a target city. There were several, but this one had a railyard, several small factories (tires, electronics, etc.) and a heavy equipment plant, and a very large airport. It was not very far from a USAF base.
During the Cuban missile crisis, my mother’s idea of ‘prepping’ was to put several boxes of crackers and cans of Campbell’s soup in the storage room in the basement, right across from a window that would be blown out if a nuke detonated over the city. She really had no concept of what a nuke strike could do, because we were less than 10 miles from dead center of something like that.
I used to watch those prepper shows and wonder where they expected to actually get food and clothing if things really did go sour. There is nothing wrong with being prepared for a disaster like a tornado or flood, but if you really try to pin them down about practical things like laundry, loss of electric power and natural gas, a disruptive series of winter events or wildfires, they just give you blank looks.
These ‘preppers’ need to be careful what they wish for. A natural disaster is more likely to disrupt their lives than any government action possibly could.
Much along the same lines as my response to Flagwaver, if there was ever a case this was attempted (expecially in Texas) you would probably get something very close to what happended during the Mapel Syrup War in ‘Live Free or Die’ by John Ringo. (I can’t do it justice in a post, you’ll have to read the book). But long story short AIN’T gonna happen.
I find conspiracy theories and the people who propagate them more interesting than the theories themselves (which fall apart pretty quickly once you start to look into them.) Here’s a good book I can highly recommend on the topic:
http://www.amazon.com/Voodoo-Histories-Conspiracy-Shaping-History/dp/1594484988/ref=sr_1_63?ie=UTF8&qid=1432144163&sr=8-63&keywords=conspiracy+theories
Wolverines!! (Sorry, forgive me… )
No, not wolverines.
Urban coyotes. They’re everywhere and they have no fear.
Real conservatives are naturally distrusting of the government, but add that with the egregious unprecedented abuse of power and corruption of the Hussein administration and I can’t blame people one minute to imagine the worse.
I’ll take 10 black helicopter types over 1 hashtag entitlement criminal “protestor” any day.
Circles, you are correct about conservatives being naturally distrustful of their government. But when some of these Jade Helm ding-a-lings started talking about shooting at the Special Forces troops involved in the operation the paranoia has gone too far and needs to be challenged.
And there are some out there, as pointed out above, who would dearly love to see an all out shooting war break out between the citizens and the federal government for no better reason than to simply fulfill their own prophesies and justify their own fears.
I was going to type out a long explaination concerning thes so-called “fringe-conservatives but…I won’t. This is what is going on in a nutshell. Operatives for the DNC & RNC have infiltrated these conservative groups much like the Paulians have and are simply there to divide and split up the conservative base. They’ve been at it for several years now.
The two groups I admin on FB, have seen a tremendous increase in chatter from them and you are now seeing it on your comments over at AT. I deal with them day in, day out and am certainly experienced enough with these types of infiltrators that I might write a book about it some day.
Maybe I can sneak by At and read each comment. Bet you a six-pack (one) of ice cold beer I will be able to sort out who is who just from the comments and maybe even track a few of them right back to one my FB groups…I’ve learned over the years, people have a pattern they use and stick to it, regardless.
Capitalisation, spelling, grammar…it reveals them to a watchful eye and once you get their pattern down, it becomes easy to identify whom is whom and intercept them posting in these conservative groups.
Carolyn and Suzanne might vouch for me on that. I have bounced thousands of these assholes.
I just about want to puke all over my computer screen every
Time I go on Facebook and see all the paranoid rants coming from “The Revolution” and a couple of others, their headlines screeching about Military Equipment seen being shipped by rail, the “UN Trucks” seen being shipped on the highways.. I really wonder how many of those posters actually believe that crap and how many just want to see how many wingnuts they can get frothing at the mouth?
“Revolution” I’ve more or less decided is one of the Paulian crews. Haven’t tried to decypher that crew but, I will eventually. Am inclined to think they are involved one way or another with Libertree forums from the mannerism of comments and posting. A “news aggregator” was recently banned from both groups because he continually posted stories he embellishes to incite the keyboard warriors and some of them get tossed, too. I haven’t seen nearly this much discourse in politics since sKerrys little fiasco in 2004…
The local MSM affiliate just got to the bottom of “Jade Helm”. The real Jade Helm is a local wine consultant. But get this, in her interview she has a southern accent….and this ain’t the south. The mystery deepens….or depends..
Here’s the thing. For a successful coup d’etat, you need people with guns. For a country the size of the USA, you need a whole lot of people with guns.
Where does Obama get these people with guns?
US Troops? He ain’t exactly winning friends in that direction.
Law Enforcement? I doubt they really like Obama or his admin following Ferguson, et al.
Foreign troops? There’s a force pretty much guaranteed to unite the USA against whatever government let them in. Kind of like jumping in the middle of a domestic argument.
And it might be worth mentioning that most dictators don’t spend most of their time on golf courses.
United Nothing Troops on US soil? Yeah, that would fly like a 5 ton lead balloon. During WWII a Japanese General was quoted about the futility of them invading the U.S. Mainland saying something like “There would be someone with a gun behind every blade of grass”.
No offense to the folks down in Lone Star country but every time I hear somebody nattering about invading Texas, I can’t help remembering the line from Gen. Phil Sheridan:
“If I owned Texas and Hell, I would rent Texas and live in Hell.”
Not to mention the fact that most Texans like to fight and tend to be armed.
Personally, if I was going to invade someplace, a better choice might be, say, the Polo Lounge in Beverly Hills. Not only can you get a decent margarita, but there would also be the option to interrogate a few local starlets to find out if they need taking into custody.
Mmmm hm!