Walmart shopper assaulted by vigilante because…Gun!
Clarence Daniels, 62 years old, put his gun in his holster at his car in the Walmart parking lot when he went to pick up some coffee creamer. 43-year-old vigilante Michael Foster saw him and decided that there was no legal reason a Black man should be concealing a handgun. Foster followed Daniels into the store and tackled him at the front doors, yelling “He’s got a gun”.
Well, Mister Daniels has a permit to carry a handgun concealed in public, but I guess that never entered Mister Foster’s narrow mind. Here’s the video of the assault;
Mister Foster was arrested for assault according to the Tampa Bay Times;
The Sheriff’s Office recommends that vigilante-inclined citizens refrain from taking matters into their own hands, especially when an incident is gun-related. Call 911 or alert security, McKinnon said, before taking any drastic measure.
“You better make sure there’s a good reason,” he added. “Otherwise you might be confronting a guy that is legally permitted to carry a gun.”
Foster was lucky that Mr. Daniels was a responsible gun owner or Foster might be full of new orifices now.
Category: Guns
Un-
real
!
Well he’s going to feel like he has another or larger orifice after Mr Daniels files a lawsuit against him and maybe Walmart to boot.
SHAKE THAT TREE!!
Yep.
Just curious. Why Wal Mart? What responsibility do they have in this attack?
Stipudass…
I hope that Mr Daniels presses every single charge he can press !!!
What an asshole. He’s very lucky he’s only facing assault charges and not being an organ donor.
Ass. Hole.
Too bad nobody tazed this douche.
Poor bastard thought he was doing the right thing. You got to have a set of balls to tackle a man with a gun.
Scary though, I would have assumed he was trying to take my gun to kill people. Doubt that would have ended well.
Its not just that the man had a permit to carry. What if he was an off duty police office? Plain cloths officer responding to a call? Parole Officer? Or, any one of the other countless people who carry a weapon.
Not to sharp with English?
Nope, sometimes I push the limits of that GED. Doin the best that I can though.
It’s “too” not “to”… just pointing out the obvious.
For the sake of discussion, how easy would it be for Mr. Daniels to argue self defense had he shot Mr. Foster? I think the answer is pretty obvious, but curious what TAH folks think.
Good question.
In some states, Daniels would be in a world of hurt in such a scenario. In FL, I think he’d be OK due to their laws – which appear actually to let people defend themselves when attacked.
Full disclosure: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. (smile)
Nah, I know you’re not a lawyer, Hondo. Neither am I. I do know folks share interesting opinions here, which is why I asked.
“Your honor, I assumed he was trying to take my weapon to kill women and children in Walmart. So your honor, thats why I killed him”
If someone forcibly attempts to take your legally possessed firearm deadly force is authorized. At least where I live. The assumption is that they are stealing the gun in order to shoot you with it.
Try taking a cops gun and see if he doesn’t ventilate you. It’s auch bigger issue than just a theft.
Yep! Or cut someone’s ass somewhere along the way of ’em trying to get that weapon, too.
USMC8Ret: All he would have to say is that he feared for his life. The sudden, unprovoked attack and the arm around the neck are more than sufficient for a reasonable person to reach that conclusion.
The Sheriff Department’s spokesidiot was little better, saying, “We understand it’s alarming for people to see other people with guns….” Why? Don’t the deputies carry guns in Tampa? In that regard, how the hell did Charles Bronson know that the victim was not a police officer? He wanted to be a hero. When someone seeks to be a hero, he usually ends up like our boy here.
Yeah, that’s what I pretty much arrived at as well. Considering a gun was involved (and the protection of it), FL laws, etc., I’d have to say Mr. Foster was pretty lucky had Mr. Daniels assumed positive control of his weapon. The story could’ve turned out quite differently.
What about the two guys who saw this clown attack Mr. Daniels from behind and actually helped hold him down instead of going after the attacker.
That was my question. Did the other 2 numbnuts get charged?
They most certainly could be charged and, if the victim sues his attacker, they’ll have great seats in the courtroom. Mistake is not a defense to intentional torts so “I thought that….” or “It looked to me that….” would likely be true statements but will not excuse their committing battery.
Tampa area, eh? I wonder if our “hero” here was a seasonal migrant – AKA “snowbird” – from NY, CT, RI, IL, or NJ. South Florida is overrun with such seasonal migrants this time of year.
If so, that would explain much.
That is a very interesting question.
There is one other notable thing about the people involved in this. I will just wait here ……..
That the attacker was white and the gun carrier was black? Instant stereotyping that any black man with a gun must be a criminal? That the bystanders jumped in to help the white guy who was breaking the law instead of the black guy who was obeying it?
AND WE HAVE A WINNER, you sir will be the recipient of $100 donation made to TAH in your name. You astute observations and Google Foo abilities are in keeping with the highest traditions of the site and its motley crew. Congratulations Sir!
Jonn- Hold him to that!
Done, Thank you for your participation in the site.
I have no idea if that actually had any impact on this event, however the implication will be made by people regardless. Curious to see where the protesters will rally.
I’m going to draw fire this morning. No pun intended.
Situational awareness? You see a man holster a gun and walk into a store. And how many ‘walk in and whack’ shootings have we had in the last few months? Offices, hospitals, convenience stores, beauty shops? You and I might think, “CCW,” but others, particularly those unfamiliar with guns, might think, “nutjob with a gun.” What if he’d jumped the guy who was going in to kill his ex-wife, who worked there? What do you say then?
A man was shot by a cop for MOVING when he was told not to a couple of days ago. If the man had called the police on Daniels, instead of tackling him, what do you get then? A SWAT team in a Walmart. Oh, now there’s a happy thought…what do you think would have happened to Daniels in that situation?
As gun owners, we have to realize that our society has changed, and not for the better. We no longer enjoy the freedom to carry wherever and whenever and however we want. Oh, the LAW says we can, but a law is only as good as the society who tolerates it, and our society is becoming more and more intolerant of guns — and their owners. The reality of 2A and the ideal of 2A are moving further and further apart as criminals and mental cases of all stripes commandeer our right for their uses. Until we get that back under some kind of control, we have to use common sense when we carry, or we are going to lose our right altogether.
Well said, Pinto Nag. This guy clearly overreacted, I personally wouldn’t have assumed the guy had a CCW either, but I would have hung back and observed him for about a minute or so after he entered the store. If he headed for the merchandise like any other customer I’d head back to my car and continue on with my day. On the other hand, if he started heading straight for the registers that’s another story.
When I was in Iraq a member of my squad saw a handful of men in the distance trying to discreetly carry AKs. They ultimately turned out to be Iraqi Police, but we didn’t assume such, fortunately we were able to P-ID them before the situation went terribly wrong.
Understood, but tackling the guy wasn’t the correct response. Calling 911 is. I responded to a few man “man with gun” calls in my time as an LEO and occasionally it would be a licensed individual or an LEO from another jurisdiction off duty. Dumb ass is lucky he didn’t get killed.
And very few of the people I ever arrested for illegally carrying had a holster. That would have been my first clue the guy was legit.
Where I live the number one reason police are called because ‘someone’ has a gun is Walmart. No swat teams, no flashy lights and sirens, no panic.
I am sure results vary depending on zip code.
I’ve had that call many times. It’s usually no big deal. The man shooting a gun or waving it around are totally different calls though
[i]You see a man holster a gun and walk into a store.[/i]
IMO, the key word there is “holster.” From my observations (admittedly limited to replays of surveillance cameras) the thug type doesn’t bother with a holster, preferring to put the gun sans holster in a pocket or tucked into the waistband.
If I see someone putting a gun in an actual holster (if that’s indeed what happened in this case), I’m going to err on the side of “this guy’s probably legit.”
Real criminals rarely use holsters is a good rule of thumb
You beat me to it while I was writing out my rather lengthy answer, Herbert J Messkit–still one of the best tags I have ever seen!
I typed my reply before I read yours. You are correct, at least in my experience.
Hmm…. The gun I routinely carry doesn’t need a holster. It has a clip that keeps it in place IWB.
I’ve had a CCW continuously for the last 27 years, and I’ve NEVER had a holster.
All you police types out there, riddle me this:
Two times I have stood before a police officer, with an unholstered, full frame automatic between him and me, pointed directly at his chest. He was unaware that I had it. How did I do it?
It was in your purse.
Close. I don’t carry a purse, but what I was carrying was a bible case converted to a pistol case.
Neither officer gave it a second glance.
Shame on you for revealing trade secrets on a public forum PN!
Shame!
Shame!
I should have scrolled down further!
The first clue, PN, is that the man holstered the handgun. Another is his age. How many mass murderers or terrorists are over age 50 or 60? Still another is how he appeared to the observer. Was the man with the holstered handgun acting strangely? Did he look around him and behind him as he walked to the store? In other words, there are many visual clues that people who are up to no good display. The PROBLEM, as I see it is that Charles Bronson here has bought into the guns are bad and a man with a gun is a bad man–excepting uniformed police officers.
This is what some of the anti-gun groups have been telling people to do (not to jump them but to yell and scream) when they see some one armed.
The way I understand CCW laws, the weapon ust remain concealed at all times unless the permit holder finds himself in a situation that would require drawing the weapon. Any displaying of the weapon including “imprinting” is considered brandishing a weapon. Clearly the assailant is a fucking moron suffering from “WannabeAHero” syndrome much like George Zimmermanwho suffe from the same. I am not saying that everyone should turn a bind eye to the violence that unfolds around us but use some common damn sense people.
You raise an interesting point that can only be answered by knowing a particular state’s laws. This is not a one-size-fits-all matter. In some states, it is perfectly legal to carry a handgun openly and no permit is required. In these same states, however, the moment the handgun is covered (i.e., concealed) a permit is required. In some states, the concealed handgun is to be so hidden that just seeing its outline under clothing is a crime, as you mention. Overall, though, it is the weapon one doesn’t see that is supposed to be the danger—not the one openly carried and in plain sight. The key is the state law.
2/17 Air Cav- There is no doubt in my mind that the individual who assaulted Mr Daniels was clearly in the wrong and I was not trying to justify his actions.
Okay. I have no idea what you are responding to but okay.
He was holstering his weapon as he got out of his vehicle. Given that few, if any, valid methods of concealed carry are even remotely comfortable in the driver’s seat of a car, I think most states list this as a reasonable exception to the brandishing rule.
Each State is different. In my State, when you have your carry permit, it means carry, whether open or concealed, it doesn’t matter. The fun part is that if you open carry in my State, chances are about 3 dozen people are going to call the cops about “someone with a gun”, but they won’t mention that it is holstered and the person is going about their business, so the cops show up all amped up, because they have no idea what the situation is, before they get there. The genereal public is a lot like the low information voter; they have absolutely no idea what the law is and they don’t really pay attention to anything outside their little bubble, or really care, until they see an evil gun.
The bad guys usually don’t have their GAT in a holster, which we get reminded about from time to time when one of them blows their junk off or shoots themselves in the leg.
This jagoff will be lucky if he isn’t sued, along with the other rocket surgeons that held him down and took possession of his sidearm……and, of course, Walmart.
If the guy saw it, it wasn’t very well concealed.
That being said, open carry here is legal, and had someone put hands on him in this state, our “hero” could very well have been legally issued several new holes.
NHSparky: according to Wikipedia (yeah, I know), FL is one of a handful of states where open carry in public places is generally unlawful. That is apparently currently being challenged in court.
And don’t forget: Tampa is pretty warm about now (around 70F). Not too many people there going to Wal-Mart wear a jacket or hoodie. (smile)
According to the article Foster watched Daniels holster the pistol at Daniels’ car in the parking lot.
And yep, open carry is legal here in Arizona as well, so is concealed carry without a permit. Jumping an armed man without clear-cut justification is just plain stupid and dangerous.
A Darwin Award contestant in the making.
Nice debate, but it is more productive, if one is concerned about something like a man carrying a concealed weapon into a store, to follow him and watch what he does, instead of just dive-bombing him like that.
I guess common sense is no longer in use these days.
So what I saw in this attack was someone over-reacting instead of observing. The thought also occurred to me, watching those two surveillance videos, that the vigilante guy had some stuff in his head about wanting to be a big hero or something. As it is, the vigilante could have seriously injured Mr. Daniels in simply knocking him down.
It’s also the reason I wouldn’t take a CCW gun into any Walmart, anywhere in any state. Wear it in the open where peole can see it, or don’t carry it at all.
Oh, yes, I know – not all states allow open carry.
I really despise these people who have panic attacks like this.
Ex-PH2…Thank you and well said. Follow the guy and if he acts whacky with the gun then try to tackle him…after you’ve called 911.
Actually, if he acts wacky I would get the attention of a store employee and ask him/her to get the manager to call 911.
I am not a proponent of open carry, but I do think the concealed carry laws that criminalize ANY glimpse of your gun, whether by printing under your clothes or inadvertently, are poorly written. (My personal solution for years was to carry a baby-blue KelTec which looked more like a toy, just in case someone prone to public hysteria happened to see it.)
What would Mr Foster have done here?
The first thing Mr. Foster needs to do (well, maybe second, after getting a lawyer) is to apologize, profusely, to Mr. Daniels. If he’s lucky, Mr. Daniels will be magnanimous enough to decline to press charges, or maybe his lawyer can work out a deferred adjudication plea.
Dumb asses will be dumb asses, everywhere you go. Stop, think, call 911 and then be a hero if need be.
My solution to the concealed carry imprinting, is to carry cross-draw. Even though I’m left-handed, I shoot right-handed (figure THAT one out). So I carry IWB on my left hip, with the grip to the front. So even if you bend over, you’re MUCH less likely to imprint through clothes.
Carrying a weapon discreetly is when no one knows your carrying it concealed. Never tell anyone your carrying concealed, period. I have never allowed anyone to see my weapon and no one even knows I carry. This gives you the edge in a conflict. Be discreet and keep your mouth shut. And don’t forget to practice your draw and firing for accuracy. This situation could have been avoided. The only time someone should see your weapon is when you need to defend your life or someone else’s. That’s why it’s called concealed carry. Flashing weapons gets all the ignorant people excited and pissing there pants.
That brings up a good point. My wife’s mother, brother and his wife (sister-in-law for this example) are very anti-gun and my sister-in-law stated that she would never allow guns around her or her kids. Well, I admitted to my wife, much later, that my sister-in-law wasn’t as situationally aware as she bragged about, because there were several times that I was packing when her and the kids would come over to my mother-in-law’s house, while I was there, and they had no idea that I was armed. My wife didn’t even know and it was a full size Springfield XDm .40 cal. Once, when we got home, my wife saw me take it out of the holster and she asked “have you been wearing that all day”? I said “yes I have” and that’s when it came out about the sister-in-law thingy.
I have carried in several establishments that have the “no weapons allowed on these premises” signs at the door, because as far as they know, I don’t have any weapons and that’s the way I like it.
I read through everything. The gist of it is that the vigilante (Foster) assumed that a crime was imminent for no reason other than he watched Daniels put it into its holster.
You know what happens when you assume something, right?
I rather like Mrs. Shipley’s concealed carry method, the weapon holster in the flap of her lovely leather purse. She doesn’t even have to undo the flap to use the gun. And it’s pretty, too.
Now what kind of moron would assume that she was going to commit a crime when all she’s doing is going into Sam’s Club to pick up supplies for the ESE courses?
If you say ‘no one’, that’s the wrong answer. The number of panicky morons looking for a chance to get their names in lights somehow is astonishingly large.
[…] “It Takes A Special Brand Of Incompetence And Cowardice…” This Ain’t Hell: Walmart Shopper Attacked by Vigilante Because…Gun! Weasel Zippers: Liz Warren To Drug Companies – “You Didn’t Do It Alone…We […]