Making the CAB retroactive to WWII
Military.com reports that legislation in Congress may make the award of Combat Action Badge retroactive to soldiers serving as long ago as the Second World War;
The Combat Action Badge, authorized for soldiers in combat who are not eligible for the Combat Infantryman Badge or Combat Medical Badge, was established in 2005 to recognize that many troops – regardless of their specialty – were coming under fire and engaging the enemy in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Rep. Richard Nugent, R-Florida, has filed legislation for retroactive CAB authorization for several years, even making it tax-neutral by requiring those who might be approved for the medal to purchase it directly from the supplier.
The House adopted his bills but the Senate has balked.
“I’ve never gotten a good explanation for why the Senate is so opposed to it. There is no cost to the taxpayer associated with the badge and these men and women have clearly earned the recognition,” Nugent said Thursday.
Well, first of all, Representative Nugent, the CAB is one of those badges covered by the Stolen Valor Act of 2013, meaning that someone wearing it without earning it is subject to prosecution. Secondly, the award of the badge is pretty specific;
Specific Eligibility Requirements:
May be awarded to any soldier.
Soldier must be performing assigned duties in an area where hostile fire pay or imminent danger pay is authorized.
Soldier must be personally present and actively engaging or being engaged by the enemy, and performing satisfactorily in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement.
Soldier must not be assigned/attached to a unit that would qualify the soldier for the CIB/CMB.
Can you imagine the documentation that would appear, mostly from badge-hunters, to prove that they were “actively engaging or being engaged by the enemy”, from, say, the Korean War? Representative Nugent claims that there is no expense to the taxpayer involved – but who is going to do the research necessary to approve the potentially millions of awards and verify that only eligible applicants will get the award? Not to mention the other millions of phonies who will wear it like they wear the 3rd award of the CIB now, with no fear of being prosecuted, even though it’s illegal.
It will only serve to dilute the symbolism and meaning of the award, and it’s phony bait – as evidenced by the photo above that I scraped from somewhere on the internet.
Category: Stolen Valor Act
Not only that, wasn’t the CIB first created to boost the prestige of the infantry following a lot of studies done during and after WWII that showed the infantry had been treated as a red headed stepchild by the Army? This just looks a lot like the kindergarten concept of giving everybody an award so nobody feels left out.
However, you can bet that even if this doesn’t pass, the mere fact that it’s been mentioned will be enough that every faker and embellisher in the country will soon be sporting a CAB.
That’s weird, considering that the infantry is THE Army. Really weird. At least it is to this clueless about the Army swabbie.
And I’m not arguing with you about the CIB being created to fight “redheadedstepchildism,” but I always thought it was the Bronze Star that was created as an answer to the Air Medal. At the beginning, weren’t Bronze Stars given to anyone who had a CIB? And that it was awarded at the company level?
I realize money talks, but attempting to honor our airmen, especially WWII AAF veterans and family members of veterans who lost their lives in action or in captivity received very little support.
I am referring to the thousands of airmen who fought the enemy as infantrymen during battles of Bataan and Corregidor on the Philippine Islands.
If allowed, it would substitute the second class Combat Action badge (CAB) for the highest rated Army badge, the Combat Infantryman badge (CIB) for those combatants yet to receive recognition due. All WWII recipients of the CIB are entitled the Bronze Star Medal.
It would authorize the CAB with no Bronze Star Medal to a veteran who fought alongside of a recipient of the Bronze Star Medal [with] the Combat Infantryman badge.
There are applicable guidelines in effect since 1944 (retroactive on or after 6 December 1941) authorizing an Army combatant (regardless of MOS and unit assignment)the CIB according to War Department Circulars.
This is ridiculous. As Martin wrote, the CIB was created for a very specific reason during WWII and this would fly in the face of that. It is a slap in the face to all the Infantrymen who served in World War Two and routinely got the short end of the stick from the Army.
I don’t see how recognizing others that served in combat back to WW2, especially combat arms like Armor and Cavalry, will take away from what the infantry has done. What it will do is show that it is NOT just the infantry in the fight.
How in the fuck are they going to validate them. Shit we had to have 3 statements on the action for the award.
There are a lot of other MOS fields that participate in active combat now a days. I am an MP and we did more combat missions than the Infantry guys who were guarding our FOB in Iraq.
That’s why we have the CAB now, Iraq and Afghanistan are not conventional fights and too often do we find non-infantry types pushed into an infantry role. When I was in Iraq one platoon in my company was made up of tankers who were doing the exact same things my platoon was doing. World War Two was not like that. The infantry routinely got the shit end of the stick and the Army brass chose to recognize that with the CIB. Going back now and giving some feel good award would be an insult.
If congress wants to do something meaningful they can pass a law outlawing the awful Army Service Uniform.
I’d like to know how they will verify them as well. Our whole MP sad had to fill out and sign sworn statements for my and my buddies CABs.
interesting tidbit. My buddy was Infantry in the beginning of Iraq and earned the CIB. A few years later he is in the reserves, but now an MP deployed to Iraq again and he earns the CAB. So he has both. Also he has an Arcom for Valor which I didn’t understand then and still don’t.
Another solution in search of a problem.
No cost my ass.
Oh wow! I could get 2 (Dom Rep and Nam)! Wow! I can get coffee cheaper? Er, no. My bride and kids would be so impressed? Er no. Well someone would probably care? Er, no. Oh well. DGAS.
SJ, while the Dom Republic is a qualifying conflict for the CIB and CMB, it is under the Vietnam era award period, I believe, that ran for about 40years and covered a number of conflicts. So like those awards, only one would be authorized.
I thought so but I was just venting. I know of no one that cares about my awards, as humble and meager as they are, including me. I was shot at in both places, gladly, without effect. I had a standing battle with CPT Carl Lloyd, the CO of 3/82nd’s Avn Det in Nam for wanting to sign off on me in for a zillion Air Medal’s because I flew in the back with them everyday (Brigade SigO). My position was that an Air Medal was for Air Crew, not pax, and I refused them.
I love it when the good idea fairy whispers in someone’s ear.
If IRC, and anyone can correct me, when the Marines issued the CAR it was back dated to 6 December 1941.
Not initially. However, it was eventually made retroactive to 7 Dec 1941. I believe the extension of eligibility occurred in 2 stages, the first covering all of the Vietnam War and the second extending it back to World War II.
Perhaps one of our USMC regulars can comment in more detail?
Yep.
MARADMIN 038/13 revised the standards for the CAR to include IED disposal and also included provisions for retroactive rewards on or after 7 DEC 1941.
Where are you at in Ohio? I used to live in Springfield.
ByrdMan: actually, it appears that CAB eligibility for World War II and Korea for the CAB occurred much earlier – by Federal law. See section 564 of the FY 2000 DAA:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-106publ65/html/PLAW-106publ65.htm
It also looks like I was wrong, and that the CAB was made retroactive back to the official start date of the Vietnam War when or shortly after it was created vice several years later.
About 45 miles N of Zinzinnati along the Ind. border.
Screw it, I’d rather the Army just send me a $20 gift card to Home Depot.
Whats next CIB’s for Gettysburg?
Clara Barton had better get her CMB then.
“Whats next CIB’s for Gettysburg?”
CIB’s for Contractors!!!
<<<<<(runs, hides)
But seriously, Visconi needs to give Representative Nugent a big 'ol campaign donation. He could introduce legislation for Purple Hearts for all boo boo's…. just write up your own citation and buy your own medal.
If this is ever adopted, it will be the biggest military admin goatscrew in history.
What Hondo said.
I’ll make it short, All three of us on My ASV crew should have gotten one, but there were 3 different units involved, no one wanted to do the paperwork and kept wishing it off on the other units. We didn’t get our eye candy. so what. Having said that….
THis is a BAD BAD BAD idea.
The CAB is the worst designed US military badge … EVER! The problem with the CAB is that you cannot tell what it is until you’re right on top of it. It looks like a baseball covered by a bat! Hell!
Instead, put two crossed M-1 bayonets as the center motif and you will be able to immediately tell what it is. Would look a LOT better, too.
Describing the badge using heraldic language, the Combat Action Badge SHOULD HAVE BEEN:
And … why was the M-1 bayonet NOT used? It is classic and “sexy” — the opposite of the “anchor” that is currently en vogue. After all, the EIB/CIB use a M-1795 Springfield Arsenal Musket and NOT a 1903 Springfield, M1, M14, or M16.
I have heard that the design of the Combat Infantryman Badge was modeled on the WWII German “Infantry Assault Badge” and “Close Combat Badge”; therefore, why NOT use the German “General Assault Badge” {other than infantry} as a model for the army’s Combat Action Badge? The German verson employed a crossed stick-grenade and bayonet within a circlet of oak leaves below the National eagle.
Damn … I should have been consulted! Double-damn!!
Actually, rgr1480, IMO the Army screwed the pooch by authorizing a badge at all for the CAB. We should simply have adopted the USN/USMC CAR and been done with it.
The Army could have used the same ribbon, but the Army could have used the criteria for the CAB of today if it wanted. That way, everyone who came under fire that wasn’t eligible for a CAB or CIB would get recognition for that fact – but the CIB and CAB would still provide proper recognition for the exceptional burden placed on individuals by those specialties in combat.
Unfortunately, the CAR “wasn’t invented here” – with “here” being DA. So we didn’t go that route.
I always thougt CAB stood for “cock and balls” because that’s what it looks like. That, or “crybabies and bitchs”.
I swear if DA keeps this up pretty soon every PFC is going to look like one of those North Korean generals with awards that go all the way down to their pants.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U4bD3pn2nik/0.jpg
And I thought you would be posting this photo:
http://i.imgur.com/wRGFo7w.jpg
…. same difference.
(^___^)
Perhaps this is DoD’s clever plan for eliminating the problem of Stolen Valor, If we ALL look ridiculous, no one will notice.
lol welcome to CAR status, US Army.
You get one. You get one. You get one. Uh, sure. You get one. Everyone gets one!
Hey, where’s mine? I ran the Area Support Group 3-Shop in a host country before and after Operation Desert Shield — we had two rockets come over the fence during my tenure and all I got to do was activate the Emergency Operations Center.
Doesn’t matter at all that the rockets were home made and a tad bit larger than bottle-rockets; the fact that the Red Army took credit for them ought to qualify me.
Right?
Well …. we were in Northeast Asia, but that doesn’t matter, right?
Nice!
Put me in for three Desert Storm , Somali and some OIF.
HRC is already struggling to deal with new administrative requirements AND catching up on previous backlogged requests and records updates.
Imagine trying to get an order awarding an MOS. Now, multiply that by 20 MILLION, as in the amount of veterans who will submit requests thinking they might be eligible for this one.
Let alone, these guys in Congress have no clue how much this shit costs Soldiers. I’ve told my Bn Cdr on more than one occasion not to give me an AAM because it would cost me so much to update my rack.
Though the next time my 1SG calls for an open ranks ASU inspection, I’m going to wear the Army Service Ribbon and nothing else. (Haven’t made up my mind whether to mean that literally, or figuratively.)
I would rather have one that looked like this http://www.replicaww2.com/218-217-thickbox/combat-cavalry.jpg
I put one of those suckers on my Stetson. Looks real slick with the yellow Stetson Cords and the real big First Cav patch on my right shoulder.
It’s the smaller one, the 4″ one looks better. 🙂
http://www.blackfive.net/photos/uncategorized/2009/03/09/blackfive_tshirt_cav_trooper.jpg
The Air Force issued some type of combat badge for the current wars and is not retroactive to any other wars. And that’s OK with me (former USAF), because how can you verify something 40 years ago or earlier. CIB is for Army infantry only. No exceptions. REMF is just that. Why not give everyone a REMF badge. (A mini can of beer with a streamer)
The Air Force has a Combat Action Ribbon for wear on the blues, not a badge. The only people you will see with them are the AFSOC ground pounders because you actually had to be in combat to get it. Not like the CAB where you can be on a FOB and if a mortar round hits 200 meters away you still get it.
I’m sure this is the right forum to ask this question of the Army experts.
My father was in the Ordnance Corps during WW2. He was in it from the start. Landed at Oran in November 1942 and went to the finish at Leghorn, Italy. In between, he was in North Africa, Sicily, and Italy. Survived Monte Cassino. According to family legend, was reported KIA not once, but twice. Friends of his from before the war were told he had been killed.
Do you all think he would have been eligible for this award? Not that he would care. He would NEVER, EVER talk of his experiences in the war. He refused to join the VFW. “Why would I want to sit around a bar and talk about things I want to forget?”
Volunteering for the Army was something he did as a patriotic American even though he probably could have avoided it (he was 34 years old at the time of Pearl Harbor). Something this Irishman had to do to support his adopted country.
I always regretted that he wouldn’t talk about it. I’ve always wondered what life would have been like for someone who was in “combat” ordnance (I only put quotes around combat cause I just don’t know what it was like for them). Anyone know where I could go to find out?
MustangCryppie: I’d suggest starting with the US Army Ordnance Corps Museum at Fort Lee, VA (vic Petersburg). They should either have or know where to find official histories of that period.
Unfortunately, the museum seems to be still in the process of moving (it was BRACed from Aberdeen Proving Ground to Fort Lee in the last BRAC round, and getting a new facility is apparently taking a while). However, their office could possibly direct you to their historian – or make arrangements to meet with you during working hours, given your family tie to the Ordnance Corps.
My guess is he saw some pretty hairy stuff. Italy was a dirty, nasty, slow slog, and anyone who served there that wasn’t at a major HQ was serving under pretty rotten conditions. While the ordnance guys might not have been on the front lines, they did have to recover damaged material. That included tanks that had been nailed by the Germans – probably with gore and some personal effects still contained therein. They’d also have been close enough to see some action, particularly if deployed with forward maintenance units.
Addendum to the above: if you know his unit, the National Archives facilities that have military records would also be a possible source of info.
Unit morning reports from World War II are at NPRC, and might answer some questions. Unfortunately, they are archival records and can only be viewed in person.
http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/morning-reports-and-unit-rosters.html
Certain other military records/documents from post-1900 are held at the National Archives’ College Park, MD, facility.
http://www.archives.gov/dc-metro/college-park/researcher-info.html
On-line indexes of at least some of the material available at the College Park facility are reportedly available, but I’m not very familiar with them or precisely what they cover.
The Library of Congress’ Veterans History Program would also be a possibility. I don’t know much about its holdings or how to access them. However, be advised we’ve found a number of fakes that managed to get false “oral histories” into that collection, at least briefly. Most were from Vietnam and later, but the possibility that someone from World War II may have ladled on the BS while telling their story can’t be dismissed out of hand.
http://www.loc.gov/vets/
Thanks, Hondo! I greatly appreciate it.
Luckily (?), I live in the DC
Screwed THAT up!
As I was saying, Luckily (?), I live in the DC area. I’ve thought about going to the Ordnance Museum, but like you say, it’s been in the process of moving for quite a while. I’ll give them a shout.
I only heard two stories about my father’s service and they were from my uncle in Ireland about 20 years after my dad died!
He said my father wrote him about the heat in N. Africa, that if hell was hotter than that, it was a damn hot place!
The second, more interesting, story was when he related that he saw a group of German soldiers coming at him somewhere in Italy. They were coming at him fast and he prepared himself for the worst. He raised his rifle and was ready to shoot, when the Germans surrendered to him.
To say he was relieved is an understatement.
Thanks again, Hondo.
I think so of the 11braves should stop sticking out their chests and think about their fellow vets. I am a vietnam vet and I was an advisor to a vietnam.ranger unit in the delta..I carried a prc 25 radio and jumped rice paddies, got into firefights and picked.leeches off just like an.11B. I was nominated for a.CAB twice but was denied because of my MOS. What most 11B’s don’t realize is that others can also get PTSD. If you have a CIB or CMB that is considered an.automatic stressor for your VA rating. The rest of us GO THROUGH HE’LL trying to convince the VA we need help. I am.sure that the CAB is also an automatic stressor. So how about stop CIB superiority and think of the guys that also.FOUGHT for their country