Don’t Condemn Hostages Who Denounce America

| August 22, 2014

I had an epiphany, an awakening moment today, regarding the issue of those hostages held by jihadist organizations as pawns in this expanding war of militant Islam versus the rest of the world. Like millions of others, I was disgusted with the jihadi mindset that would stage an on- camera beheading of a young American reporter. But I was also disgusted with the tragedy that this courageous young reporter would in his final moments denounce his country.

My first response to that was more disgust and even contempt that in his last living moments, this young man could not show the courage to refuse to be a spokesman for the ruthless fanatics who were about to saw his head from his body. From an articulate young reporter, could we not expect the brave words of an earlier era: “Give me liberty or give me death?” That I did not hear such patriotic bravado disappointed me, as it did millions of other Americans, who leaped to denounce the unfortunate young man who died gruesomely right before us.

I was wrong – totally and completely wrong.

It took a commenter on a website discussion of the matter to open my eyes and make me realize how thoughtlessly wrong I, and millions of others, had been regarding this young man’s courage. That commenter pointed out that the jihadi captors had an evil and diabolic way of preventing such dying testaments of loyalty: they simply staged fake decapitation events to determine if a hostage would attempt a dying moment of defiance with a declaration of love for their country.

If a subject attempts to make his last words a defiant declaration of love of and loyalty to America, the jihadis do not kill him. Instead, they return him to their imprisonment and fiercely torture him for his defiance. That diabolical cleverness puts hostages into an entirely no-win position: they can be defiant before the video cameras and live to suffer more torture, or they can spout the jihadi propaganda and hope that their sadistic masters will not choose that moment to saw off their heads.

These people are in a position beyond hope, and for that reason I and the rest of this country should not ever again condemn a jihadist hostage for his dying words. We should instead put ourselves in his most unfortunate place and make no moral judgment – until we ourselves have walked some pain-filled steps in those terrible shoes…

I would hope that the parents of James Foley could read this and accept my apology for too hurriedly passing judgment on their son. I would further hope that all those others who may have possibly pre-judged young Foley would read this and tender their respects to the Foley family. While I may not countenance his judgment, I can never question his courage in going into that never-land where so many fear to tread.

James Foley…R.I.P.

Crossposted at American Thinker

Category: Terror War

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Farflung Wanderer

It’s horrible what these… They’re not even people anymore in my eyes…

It is a horrible position to be in, and my full sympathy goes to Foley.

Let’s just make them pay for killing him. All of them.

No more Foleys. Never again.

Loach

Amen.

Even the Code of Conduct recognizes everyone has a breaking point. These terrorists all have access to the same info. They have learned how to break people down. In the two years he was held captive he was probably told he was being released dozens of times. He was probably also told he was being executed dozens of times. Maybe daily. I’m certainly in no position to pass judgement on him. I’ll concentrate on looking for justice for Mr Foley.

Sparks

Thank you Poetrooper and well said. I agree. This man was a young journalist doing his job in a terrible place. Even had he been a trained soldier, the horrible mind and body strains of torture and mock executions could bring most to a mental state of, “I am going to die, sooner or later. Perhaps slower than faster. With more pain or less. All I can do is to hope it is over as quickly as possible”. I am only imagining here though. I don’t know, as no one does, the fears and thoughts that plagued and weighed upon this young man’s mind and soul as he awaited his fate. I would like to say, as many, I may have done differently. But in honesty I cannot say that. I have never been faced with such horror. God bless his family and God rest his soul now. I will not judge him or his final words. After the fact opinions of expected bravado from Mr. Foley are, in my humble opinion, just that. After the fact and without ever being faced with such horrors as he faced.

I will reserve my thoughts of our President and his inaction for another thread.

This post is just my one humble opinion and speaks to or for no one else.

Smitty

I could accept this had it not been for the pro jihadi and anti American statements he made before his capture. The terrorists killed one of their own because he was American, I figure one less that good guys with guns have to kill later. Good riddance to Mr Foley

OLD 1SG, US Army (retired)

Your comments are thoughtful and right on target. Mr. Foley was in a terrible situation and I’m sure it played out exactly as you described.

We have to remember that he was a civilian and not bound by the Code of Conduct and other oaths that the military subscribe to. That said, I don’t know how I would react confronted with this type of despicable, barbaric torture and horrific killing — code or no code, oath or no oath.

Needless to say Mr. Foley was a brave American and may he rest in peace.

Richard

Top, agreed. I read the books written by the guys in the Hanoi Hilton. The commanders ordered the pilots to tolerate as much torture as they could then do what it took to stay alive. There would be no hard feelings. The US didn’t win by having a prisoner tortured to death. Denton paid a hell of a price for that Morse code blink trick.

cannoncocker

I read a comment on a website that I thought was pretty good. The gist of it was, this isn’t Hollywood and Foley isn’t William Wallace. Give him some slack.

RIP James Foley. Your suffering is over now.

Veritas Omnia Vincit

Well said and thank you for the words.

I keep hoping that now, after whatever the latest terrible deed that these muslim zealots commit, journalists and politicians alike will begin to realize that muslim zealots are not using rhetoric when they state they wish to rid the world of heathens and create a perfect islamic state. These are not people to be reasoned with, these are not people who will create conflict to gain resources, they are people who create conflict to rid the world of their heathen enemies.

They mean to kill us all or enslave us or a combination of the two. For me that is enough reason to believe it is time to bring overwhelming, devastating and unending death down upon them and their families and unfortunately the nations that are currently hosting them. Power vacuums are awful because no one knows who will fill them, but if the muslim zealots are all dead we can be sure it won’t be another variant on that terrible theme.

It’s not genocide to defend yourself, it’s called survival of the species. We can continue to pretend that somewhere the right words exist to turn murderers into diplomatic allies or we can recognize that our enemies in this conflict only understand death because that is what they deal in every day. Make them fear us, make them understand the great satan will indeed unleash the fires of hell on their warriors and their women and children in a unending maelstrom of burning, horrific death with the dead and the maimed screaming in agony until they breathe their last.

Millions of dead muslims is a good start towards a brighter future. When the followers of allah realize death is the only outcome available they will have two choices, accept their impotence and surrender or fight until they are all dead. Either outcome benefits the US. Make the Israeli attacks on Gaza appear to be humanitarian aid in contrast, that’s a message these allah loving assholes can understand in their primitive brain pans.

Sparks

VOV…I can offer no better words. Thank you.

Tim

You are no better then them dude. Pack your shit and join em, hero.

Ex-PH2

Shut th3e fuck up, Tim.

3/17 Air Cav

PH……. There you go again, sugar coating. Come on say it like you feel it! (Smile)

Ex-PH2

😉

Fjardeson

Well said. We, as the Western world, need to stop bringing lawyers and knives to this gunfight. Let’s try some MOAB’s for starters.

Once their civilians know that we aren’t cowed by their human shield tactics, they will stay away from the extremists.

Then the surgery can begin.

GDContractor

Fuck’n A!

GDContractor

Fjardeson – speaking of which, did you see that Hamas executed 11 Palestinians? Accused them of being informants. Hearts ‘n minds.

GDContractor

strike 11…. they killed 18. My bad.

10thMountainMan

Well VOV, I’m saddened to see what side you’re on. I’d rather see America die than turn into a barbaric horde that “unleashes the fires of hell on their … women and children in an unending maelstrom of burning, horrific death…”

You fit nicely in this bloody century. Maybe when the next bloodthirsty tyrabt raises an Army you can be his Goebbels.

I’m all for letting the hammer fall on Islam, but I’m also fully in the camp of those old fashioned ideals of courtesy to women, grace to captives, and protecting the weak.

Just an Old Dog

I don’t think he is advocating the wholesale slaughter of innocents, however he is pointing out the fact that if we are going to go after ISIS there are going to be a LOT of bystanders caught in the crossfire.
We have misled to the idea that we are capable of conducting some “surgical” kind of warfare where we are capable of eparatig the sheep from the goats so well that we will have damn near zero civilian casualties.
Even with the screwed up Rules of engangement in the recent wars and a genuine effort to aviod civilian casualties there were lots of them.
In order to destroy ISIS we need to take away their only effective tactic they would have. The ability to blend in with non-combatants and use them as cover.
We won WW2 by destroying the infrastructure of Germany and Japan. ISIS controlled territory is all fair game. Any building they use is a target, any assembly area or convoy is fair game.
If there are “citizens” of ISIS intermixed with them they will unfortunately pay the price.
I am fed up with our guys dying to try to prevent. I can’t think of any number of ISIS “civilans” or supporters, regardess of age or sex that are worth ONE more American life,]

GDContractor

Another example is Israel. You bomb them where they are. If the civilians don’t like it they can either die, move, or assist in the bringing about of regime change. As we have recently discussed, life is about choices.

10thMountainMan

I’m not a strategist, Poe, I’m a separated E5 with a big library. I don’t know the best way to fight ISIS. I do know, however, that what VOV said earlier was bullshit. Women and kids getting caught in the impact zone is tragic and it will happen. Deliberately striking them as part of your METL in the final solution to the Islamic problem is evil.

Japan sowed hell and reaped the fire, I get it. I know about Japan from Marquis Ito and Nanking to Unit 731. I’m not sorry they got bombed, but it was wrong to hit civilian areas deliberately. It was wrong to give aid to USSR during WW2, you can’t throw out the devil with Beazlebub.

I do apologize for equating VOV with Nazi elite that was fucked up.

Sorry for being a prick, I know that we’re still the good guys.

LC

Ultimately, the question is, “At what cost?” Let’s assume for a moment that this happens – we carpet bomb every inch of ISIS controlled territory, killing anything that breathes. What happens next? Society has changed since WWII, and the United States in particular holds a unique position due to our economic and military supremacy. The media would find the most gruesome pictures and video possible, showing kids burned alive, a mother’s body shredded with shrapnel from US weapons, a class of young school girls obliterated. This changes the way warfare is conducted, at least when there aren’t enemies on your doorstep. Oh, they’re on our doorstep, you say? Yes, but not with aircraft carriers and tanks, but rather a few cells here and there seeking to cause terror, and -for better or worse- most people never seeing any of it firsthand. So these fellow Americans, who never see the horror of terrorism because the proponents of it who are here are few and far between, turn on their TVs and see … literally millions dead. Millions. And just total destruction. Do you honestly think most people would cheer that? Or would it be deeply unsettling? A cop shoots a guy under questionable circumstances in Ferguson and look at all the trouble. Millions of people wiped out by the US military would make that look like a picnic, and not just here, but abroad as well. Trade, diplomacy and even military alliances would suffer greatly, as nobody could be seen condoning that. Our economy would take a huge hit. Our ‘moral authority’ would be irreparably damaged, and our religious leaders would be in a bind as this is by no means a ‘just’ action. We’d be, in effect, labeled terrorists, and rightly so since we’re seeking to instill terror in people to prevent them from attacking us. The blow-back on the national psyche and our foreign policy would, in effect, but so severe, we’d have ‘won’ THAT fight against THOSE terrorists… and in doing so, lost our ability to tackle the NEXT threat. A threat which is probably now magnified because… Read more »

Jack

whow. You are the originator of “the Sheepdogs”? Very awesome, I use that metaphor repeatedly, never knowing the author. Very powerful truth. My respects, and gratitude sir.

Thunderstixx

VOV is right on the money with his strategy for winning the war against the IS. Period.
William Tecumseh Sherman used that strategy on his march to the sea with good effect.
It is only total war that will ever convince a tyrant to stop what the fuck they are doing…
I don’t care what anyone says, the ROE’s that we are dealing with now are making so much easier for the Tangos to inflict the horror of their so called beliefs. There is a YouTube video wit h some IS terrorists being caught by the Iraqi army and they all turn into whiny ass babies…

Ex-PH2

My impression of the ISers is that their method is closer to a swarm of cockroaches than a column of army ants, meaning widely scattered instead of in cohesive organized units.

That may have changed recently as they acquire stolen equipment, but they aren’t an army per se.

The problem with cockroahces is that if you spray one or ten with a bug bomb, a few are hit but the rest scatter to hide in the walls. You have to flood an entire building with something that will kill them all and destroy their nests in order to eradicate them.

So in comparing the ISers to cockroaches, unless something has recently changed, they do not seem like an organized force to me. And like the Viet Cong they will take advantage of their ethnic appearance to hide in plain sight.

My solution in one of the cheap, crappy apartments I lived in was to indiscriminately spray the roaches and the cracks and crevices in the walls with a degreaser like Fantastik or 409. That worked nicely.

The solution to ending the ISers and their ravening rampage through the Middle East is to understand that they have female jihadists who are just as aggressive as the men, and that the children as young as 7 years old are being taught in schools that slaughtering someone is okay and that slaughtering Americans is brilliant.

That means do not discriminate based on who they are.

Before you get all hinky about this, bear in mind that Hitler’s youth groups did the same things to German kids and Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge employed children to murder their own parents by the millions.

Just making an observation, nothing else.

Ex-PH2

Make them fear us? How? One of the IS jihadi said bluntly, ‘We do not fear death. We welcome it. When we die, we will be in heaven.’

They have only one rule: kill or be killed. The sooner WE, the civilized world, understand that, the sooner we conquer them.

I said elsewhere I did not consider Foley a coward for what he said. He was a dead man the moment the ISers traded weapons for him. He did know what he was getting himself into, so I do not think he was naive about it, but he was not a coward.

Ex-PH2

Oh, I like GEN Pershing’s attitude and methods.

ExHack

Better than The Pentagon’s rules of war for the last campaign.

Former 11B

They’re full of shit PH2. They’ve barely fought anyone who will fight back and I bet a large percentage aren’t even particularly religious. They’re really just a bunch of needle dicked losers that just cherry pick Koran verses and use them as a phony religious smokescreen to cover the true reasons for wanting to spread so much death and misery. Fuck these pieces of shit, when they get caught in fucking strafing run we’ll see how many of them stand tall and defiant instead of moving to cover.

10thMountainMan

I agree, 11B. I wish I had some S2 on how many of these pricks are zealots and how many are mercenaries for wealthy islamo-gangsters.

Ex-PH2

11B, I don’t argue your point at all. They have not really been tested against anyone except the Kurds, who are now being joined by others who do not want the ISers in their neighborhood.

But their entire intention is to draw the US into another war of attrition, and you know it as well as I do. Unfortunately, I have a bad feeling that this is exactly what will happen.

Ex-PH2

Also, I’m venting.

AndyFMF

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2014/08/when-do-you-give-terrorists-exactly.html

Best idea that I have seen

“By beheading Americans for simply being Americans – IS is calling America out. We should accept the call – but on our terms. If they want this fight, then we should give it to them.

The tactical strikes we have been making are tactically important – but the beheading of Americans is a strategic act of PSYOPS, and we should respond in kind.

The tactical killing by drone, single drops of bombs, etc are good and important too – but we need to make a strategic statement.

Two things that we can do quickly.

1. Used to great effect in both of our Iraqi conflicts based on their superb use in Vietnam: B-52 carpet bombing.
2. A few MOAB will do nicely as well.

No need for press conferences or other spoken or written responses. Just action.

After the first flush, keep the B-52 and MOAB going now and then to keep them jumpy – but keep a steady pattern of death from the air from other air assets as well. If it is done in coordination with Syria or Iranian proxies in a temporary alliance of convenience – that is fine.

We need to accept that the killing that needs to be done in the land between the Mediterranean and Mesopotamia will need to follow more Game of Thrones rules of allies and partnerships than nice things done in Vienna, Brussels, or Strasbourg.”

Spike

“vi faccio vedere come muore un italiano!”

Pinto Nag

As much as the MSM has condemned the use of torture on insurgents by the US, you’d think they’d be all over that angle with the death of one of their own at the hands of the jihadists.

I may have missed it, but all I hear is crickets.

Ex-PH2

Ditto.

LC

Simply put, we expect these savages to torture people. It’d be like reporting that water is wet, the sky is blue and a dog is chasing its own tail.

A large section of civilized society feels that torture is wrong, though, so when we do it, it becomes news that people want to hear about and debate.

This isn’t the MSM giving terrorists a pass.

GDContractor

Would it be like reporting that Obama is playing golf, again? 😉

LC

Heh, honestly, pretty much. I would’ve used that as an example had I thought of it.

Ex-PH2

Can you guys tells that I’m pissed off?

Just an Old Dog

Slightly, you arent one to pull your punches in the best of circumstances.

Ex-PH2

Love you, too, Old Dog. <3 <3 <3

3/17 Air Cav

I for one think this young man was trotted out many times for a “mock” execution. I think it got to point where he knew if he was defiant, he would not be executed. If he condemned the United States, it was over.

I think he made a conscious decision. Grew tired of the torture. Told them what they wanted to hear and film. Fully knowing what was coming.

I have nothing but respect for this young man!

ExHack

My second guess was that he made that speech to save the life of the other hostage – that they may have threatened to kill the other guy if Foley defied them again.

I hope and pray that if these guys were to ever get their hands on me, my last words to them and the planet would be: MOOOOOORE BACON!

Thunderstixx

Unfortunately with the current crop of politicians on both sides of the aisle, the flag officers on the JCS and the pussyboy at the White House there is no way in hell that anything close to the real manner of defeating them would ever be used…
I think that we all know that but accepting it is a bit harder to do…
This little faggotbreath, dicksucking, shithead, girlyboy will allow the Tangos to run amuck for the rest of his term.
This shit sucks, but you had better get used to it, it is the way it will be…

Richard

1. you cannot carpet bomb the middle east, it is too big. We did not successfully carpet bomb Hanoi and we had years to do it. It makes big holes for them to take cover in — in short, it doesn’t work, save your money. 2. We cannot treat the middle east like it was western europe in WW2. a. the military is too small and weak b. we cannot afford it c. we could not possibly get domestic or international support for the operation d. the oil producing countries would cut us off completely 3. we cannot nuke the middle east a. see 2 above b. see the international treatment of israel and all they did was blow up a few tunnels and drop some bombs in the northern part of Gaza 4. we depend on the oil producing countries for energy and buying energy from them gives them huge amounts of dollars. We can engineer around that. We are good at shit like that. build some nuclear power stations, stop buying their oil and stop sending our treasure to them then stop trading with them. lock them back in the dark ages. And don’t bury spent fuel in the middle east. 4a. after we have the plants up and running and we stop buying oil, then 5. we have good surveillance devices. Treat offensive people in the middle east just like Israel did a couple day ago. Get intel on leadership location and send them to heaven. Stop screwing around with this, make it an industry. Oh, and don’t use little bombs. Soon to be heard on Voice of America, “If you hear that Mohammad is in town, and if you want to live, you need to leave because we have stopped screwing around with AGM-114s. We don’t plan to miss just to avoid a little collateral damage.” Broadcast the plan, make a lot of noise about it. Then execute. 6. shut down our southern border. period. Make it a death zone. 7. start building manufacturing plants in the US. Rebuild our chip fabs. Find domestic and foreign… Read more »

ExHack

And too many multinational, multibillion-dollar, allegedly “American” corporations that want to squeeze out a few dollars in labor savings and many more in tax dodges by offshoring the factories.

3/17 Air Cav

Richard……Just a minor point, concerning carpeting bombing of Hanoi. If the politicians meaning LBJ, would have not restricted the bombing of North Vietnam esp. Hanoi. We could have effectively shut them down in six months.

Ex-PH2

3/17AirCav, you left out the part about bombing Laos.

Richard

I was thinking about Rolling Thunder and Linebacker II. I agree with your point that administration interference crippled the execution but I see no reason to think that any current administration could avoid the same and the issues with Rolling Thunder had as much to do with dis-functional DOD and “efficient sortie generation” as it did with LBJ. FWIW, Linebacker and Linebacker 2 were Nixon operations – LBJ wasn’t involved. The core issue remains, the bad people in the middle east are spread all over and carpet bombing Damascus or Amman or Baghdad or some square mile in the middle of Syria does not get it done. These people are not the big asshole in your front yard, they are the termite infestation. Different methods are needed. Until ISIS reaches the same stage as the NVA in 1973-4, artillery is of almost no use and armor is only slightly more useful. People talk about asymmetric warfare – consider that it costs Hamas about $800 to make a Qassam 3 to shoot into Israel (see wiki). It costs Israel about $50,000 to shoot down it down (2 Iron Dome missiles at about $25k each). Two guys with one AK and one RPG can make life pretty hard for a motorized patrol in an urban area. In the Winter war, the Finns held up entire Soviet divisions with two guys with rifles on skiis. The Soviet solution is not palatable but it worked. I keep thinking about the cost to position and operate an F35 or a Blackhawk into theater compared to one RPG. My argument is: eliminate the threat, take away their toys by taking away their money. For chrissakes, it’s OUR money! We give them billions of dollars every year and they spend some of it well, some frivolously, and some to pay for assholes with rifles and RPGs. Most of their investment is in the West and none of them have a military worth the name. Why do we put up with this crap? If we stop buying their oil are they going to sell it to the Russians?… Read more »

Sparks

There is a propensity among we older Americans to meet threats with force. Hard and harsh force. I will be honest. All the deplomacy, economics and world views of the issue I do not understand. If I did I would have a better job paying a lot more. But, this threat from IS is real. If we do not deal with it where it is, we will deal with it here. We may yet still, since I believe there are sleeper cells throughout America and Europe, preparing and getting ready for the call to act. I do not see the problem with bombing the section of Iraq which contains IS into the dark ages. It will send a message. Will it make Muslims in other places even more hateful of us? Probably, if it is possible for them to hate us more, yes. Should we care and fear their retribution, absolutely not. That was the English answer through Neville Chamberlain. Either we take a stand and let the chips fall where they will or wait until it is on our doorstep. You or I will say, I cannot reason with an unreasonable person. When a rabid dog bites me I can reason with it not to bite again but it will. That is what it does. I cannot reason with a rattle snake not to bite me but to simple let me hold him and tell him the benefits of living peacefully in the same yard. He will bite me, it is his nature. IS are not stupid people. Intelligent people who are also completely unreasonable are the worst form of animal to face. I do not have all the answers but I have some. My first is to meet force with a greater overwhelming force. Bombs upon bombs that they cannot believe, until…they are gone. Will the rest of the free world gasp, perhaps, for a moment. But European allies who live in fear of their own Muslim communities will stop quickly. Will the UN call us names, sure and who really gives a shit about what the UN… Read more »

3/17 Air Cav

Sparks……nice piece of writing. I think Hondo and poet trooper would be proud of you!

CLAW131

Sparks,Roger,am standing by,and will be available if you ever need a good scrounger/supply sergeant for your outfit.

Ex-PH2

I posed this elsewhere.

This 8-21-2014 article comes from The Blaze:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/08/21/a-subtle-message-to-isis-from-ticked-off-military-veteran-should-send-a-chill-down-the-spine-of-every-terrorist/

There’s a video at the end of it. The writer of the message makes some very good points.

Now, don’t you all think, if push came to shove, an at-home population group of US vets would stand up for their own country?

Seriously, think about it. And please remember that there is such a thing as karmic backlash: you get what you give out. “As the sowing, so is the reaping.”

What have the ISers sown besides fear and horror in the Middle East? Of course they met little to no resistance from locals. That is the entire purpose of a blitzkrieg, which is always a surprise attack on the unprepared.

And it is necessary that you remember that not all people inhabiting countries in the Middle East share the blighted mindset of the ISers.

Tim

So much hero bullshit flows in here. The original intent of the post is lost as soon as one semi-articulated ‘my dick is bigger than your dick’ (vov) comment appears.

Ex-PH2

I doubt seriously that VOV is concerned about the size of his own external nads, dumbass.

nbcguy54

Hey Tim – whatcha doing looking at another man’s “timmy”? Don’t be jealous, they have drugs for that now…

nbcguy54

For those against the “When in Rome” Doctrine as a way of handling ISIS and those like them because of the potential for collateral damage: have you forgot that we still have a few hundred nukes pointed at Russia? Should that point ever come where those keys get turned and those buttons get pushed, there might be a tad bit of collateral damage.
Get off of your high-horses and start accepting the reality of what’s going on around us. Our willingness to employ nuclear weapons in WWII is the sole reason we’re not speaking russian right now. Think about it…

Grimmy

The current lawfare tactics and strategies forced onto our military over the last generation have served only two purposes.

1. Ensure that we can not win a war.
2. Encourage those who would be our enemy to step up and get active about it.

None of that is accidental.