About That USAFR Lt Col With A CIB . . . .
Multiple TAH commenters have raised questions about the guy in this photo:
The man in the photo is the late Lt Col Paul A. Bailey, USAFR (Ret). He passed away last year. You’ve probably heard about him from this (or a similar) article.
The specific question most had about him was, “A CIB?? In the USAFR? What the . . . ?”
It turns out the guy’s CIB is in fact legit.
Prior to entering the USAFR, Bailey served in the US Army – in the 82nd Airborne. He was among those deployed to the Dominican Republic in 1965, and was awarded the CIB there. The FOIA reply from NPRC regarding his Army records can be viewed here.
Whether his CIB is authorized for wear on the USAF uniform he’s wearing in the picture is a question someone with a USAF background will have to answer; my background was Army, so I’m not up on the “ins and outs” of what sister-service badges/decorations/badges are and are not authorized for wear on USAF uniforms. But unlike many fakes and frauds we see here, this man’s CIB is legitimate.
It’s kinda nice to see a “corner-case” claim turn out to be the truth for a change. I think that now makes about 3 such “corner-case” claims I’ve seen turn out to be legit in the last 2 years.
Rest in peace, Lt Col Paul A. Bailey. You’ve earned it – honorably.
Category: Air Force, Blue Skies, Real Soldiers
I remember awhile back in mid 2000s, we had a guy crossover from Blue to Green and he asked a Chiefs and a Senior if he was authorized to wear his Army ribbons. I believe they told him no. From most crossovers I seen, they never mix their ribbons. I am pretty you can’t do that and its in AFI 36-2803.
Or 36-2903
AFI 36-2903 seems to indicate that at least some Army service ribbons (NCOPDR, ASR, and OSR) – along with personal decorations from all services – are authorized for wear on the USAF uniform. See Chapter 11 – it includes them in the precedence chart for wear.
However, AFI 36-2903 appears to be silent on the specific issue of whether the CIB is authorized for wear or not.
C2Show: AFI 36-2803 appears to make precisely one mention of the CIB – on the entry where it says that any one awarded the CIB during World War II gets a Bronze Star also. It doesn’t seem to mention the CIB anywhere else.
I believe it’s the Army uniform reg (AR 670-1) which prescribes which sister-service ribbons/badges/decorations are and are not authorized for wear on the Army uniform (been a while since I looked that up, so I could be wrong). Might be the same in the USAF regs.
Hondo: Yeah exactly, it does mention CIB/CAB again, only if you received the medal after 9/11. Air Force personnel who earned the award could convert to the new AFCAM award. Since he earned that in 65, that is a no go.
This is a tough one because I seen enlisted folks denied permission to wear their Army ribbons on the Air Force blues. Guy I know is still serving with the Air Force, never wears his army ribbons.
I am pretty sure I work with a guy who crossed over right now, we are Reserve Technicians. I believe there is also Major on base who crossed over too. I am going to ask him if he wears his army ribbons with his blues tomorrow.
You are correct – for some reason, my search tool missed that when I searched the reg for “Combat Infantry”. Go figure.
I think Lt Col Bailey retired from the USAFR prior to 2007; if so, the CAM didn’t exist when he retired. As a retiree, he’d wear the uniform appropriate for his era when wearing same. But in any case, if the CAM is restricted to post-9/11 actions as you noted he wouldn’t be eligible for it anyway.
IMO, it doesn’t matter much – the guy was authorized the CIB, and I’ve got no problem with him wearing it on his uniform. I would like to know what the USAF policy was pre-CAM, though – for my own education.
Pretty sure pre CAM, it was just permission from your command to wear those ribbons. I worked at Headquarters AMC for 4-5 years in beginning of 2000s. And guys were pretty much writing memos for permission to wear their prior service ribbons.
Strange as anal as the air force is on uniform that they do not have a specific guidance on this
I think the thought process was Memo’s and signatures was a good way to cover your ass in case some wannabe hardcore Air Force officer stopped you and questined why you wear that ribbon or badge. Which I seen a few majors at Scott AFB in Illinois do just that.
I recently retired from the Air Guard, most of my career was Navy though. Each one of my Navy awards were authorized for wear on my blues. I cannot speak to the CIB though. And honestly, screw whoever says someone cannot wear a combat award the have earned.
I still dont buy any of it, he is wearing a Female Dress Jacket in the picture WTF….
I was looking at 36-2903 and page 46 is the men’s jacket and page 51 is the women’s jacket and for officers, they look remarkably similar.
This is the only way to be sure. Check the taq on the inside…
http://www.militaryuniformsupply.com/files/air-force-dress-coat-mens-blue-product-tag.jpg
/mine are in the closet so i can’t tell and I’m enlisted anyway so…
No, I’m pretty sure that’s a mens jacket. The current one seems to be patterned very narrow at the waist. Mine’s the same way. One of a thousand reasons I hate dress blues.
Female dress jackets do not have a chest pocket welt.
I wasn’t able to find anything in 39-2903 but it did state that AF awards take precedence and that you have to wear the same size and style of other ribbons.
At a Lt Col, I’m pretty confident that he checked with AF personnel about Dress and Regulation before wearing that. I did see photos of CIBs on TCAP BDU uniforms from the 1980s and 1990s.
I was gonna say, he could have gotten permission from a BG or Full bird I guess to wear that in his command. There is no specific direction in either reg on whether you can wear that. Its pretty clear you wouldnt wear your army qualification badges on Air Force Blues. You can wear Army Meritorious medals if you were Air Force with that unit. Or if you earned a CIB from army Unit after 9/11 you could convert to the AFCAM medal.
But from what I seen and some of the old heads would not allow enlisted guys to wear their prior service medals. I guess they were denied permission though.
Actually you CAN wear other awards from services, they have to be the same size and style and have to match the order of precedence.
I have a U.S. Navy & U.S. Marine Corps Meritorious Unit Commendation awarded to our unit for service at NAS Norfolk during DS/DS. It’s on my virtual MPF rip from 2013 and I retired in 2007.
I remember this discussion years ago when we brought down CMSgt Richard Ortega. From everything I researched, if a soldier who earned a CIB transfers to the Air Force, once he provides proper documentation of the CIB to the Air Force, he is then authorized to wear the Air Force Combat Action Medal in place of the CIB. Regarding other Army Medals, there is some crossover. If a Airman earns an Army decoration on a joint operation he/she can wear that decoration. I received an Army Achievement Medal that I am authorized to wear. I also know soldiers that were able to switch to the Air Force are authorized to the the Army Service Ribbon. I don’t think they were GCM or overseas ribbons. But I’d bet Hondo has better info than me.
I went from AF enlisted to Army WO and was authorized to wear all of my AF and Joint Service awards except my Air Force Small Arms Marksmanship Ribbon. Son-in-law is authorized to wear a CG award on his Army uniform.
If if was this dude and legitimately earned the CIB (as he did) I would wear it in my AF Dress Blues or wherever the fuck else I felt like.
And if someone tried to remove it or stop me?
“Try it motherfucker…..”
I would be in the brig w/ some of out other “heroes” profiled here.
Agree with you there, GT. I know this discussion has appeared here recently. I know Army to USMC/Navy the CIB or the new CAB would transfer to a Navy/Marine CAR and same to Army, and if awarded as an 03xx/infantry type, would earn the CIB given proper documentation. Given that the CIB is a distinctive and jealously defended infantry only Army award, I believe the LtCol just DNGAF. And in his case, neither do I.
Well, somewhat related. All of my ribbons/medals that I earned in the Navy, I’m able to wear on my ASU coat and class B version. I didn’t get the Navy marksman ribbons, but had I gotten those, I would not be able to wear them on the Army uniform.
I also received permission from HRC to wear my Navy warfare badges on my Army uniform. I wear them as Group 4 badges.
Many prior Navy and prior Air Force think that this is automatic, that they could automatically put their Navy/Air Force badges on. They have to go through HRC first.
I know I was able to wear my dolphins (subdued) on my BDUs/ACUs when I was in the Georgia State Guard because it was a Qual badge. I remember standing for a General’s inspection at Annual Training at Ft Stewart and the General asked me if my Dolphins were on my DD214. I said “Yes Sir, and there’s only three things I’m prouder of, and they call me “Daddy””.
The class A (green) and ASU colors form a perfect background color for my Surface Warfare Officer Supply Corps Badge (shiny finish). 😀
Just looked it up and then asked the Major and he said that the CIB, unless authorized transfer to the AFCAM, is not authorized. I remember back in 06-07 while deployed to help the Army we had a lot of Air Force personnel earning some CABs, quite a few are still fighting to get it authorized as a AFCAM. I still argue almost monthly with my MPF about my Army Achievement medal. There is always a few Airman that think we aren’t authorized any other service medals.
Whitey: that’s apparently the USAF policy today. I believe Lt Col Bailey retired pre-establishment of the CAM in 2007, though. So the question is whether or not the USAF allowed wear of the CIB prior to the establishment of the CAM.
In any event, it’s now only an academic interest question. The man rated his CIB. I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt re: wearing it on his uniform prior to his retirement.
RIP, Lt Col Bailey.
I’m with Hondo on this one. I know we get nit-picky. We have to because of the posers. But I don’t see any problems with Lt Col Bailey and the Air Force’s first core value. And Whitey, tell you MPF folks to stick it. You absolutely can wear your AAM is Air Force uniform. Great memories earning mine.
Like Hondo and Green Thumb, if he actually earned it, and it appears that he did, then I personally don’t have a problem with him wearing it. Nuff said.
Jacobite: actually, I would have a problem were he still serving today – that’s apparently directly against current USAF regs. (Per AFI 36-2803, a CIB is used as justification for a CAM, which on approval by the appropriate officials at USAF personnel is worn in lieu of the CIB – but only for those CIBs earned after 9/11, apparently. Go figure.) I have a problem with anyone blatantly disregarding their service’s regulations, especially if they’re very senior.
Here, it appears Lt Col Bailey retired prior to the establishment of the CAM. His uniform as a retiree would be the one proper and current as of the date of his retirement. (The photo above is also undated, and could be pre-2007 as well.) I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt concerning authority to wear the CIB on a USAF uniform pre-2007. And he rates the CIB.
But he’s not still serving today, so, much ado about nothing. 🙂
Then get it tattooed on his shaft.
And walk around a lot in the PLT (Flight?) off-post room naked.
GT: now that would be hardcore!
Ow!!! LMAO
The regs and practices on this sort of thing changed so many times over the years that even before I retired, I finally quit trying to stay current – just addressed the issue as it came up.
Personally, I have no issue with folks wearing whatever they earned, wherever they earned it, on their current uniform.
One of the oddities for me was the difference between what officers and enlisted forces wore when their prior service was in a different branch and they were prior officer, now enlisted, or prior enlisted, now officer.
And, yes indeed, it is very nice to have one check out as AOK. It just doesn’t happen often enough. RIP, sir.
I’ve only seen two navy guys wearing CIBs. One was the petty officer who used to work at the Norfolk airport from about 1985-1987 who was the guy that made sure that the new sailors found their way to the bases in the area. The other was RADM McDowell, who was a member of a social/patriotic origination with me. He said that the only reason why they put him in the OCS Hall of Fame at Benning was because they wanted a picture of a Navy admiral wearing a CIB in the building. BTW, I think that Navy regs prohibit the wear of the CIB and require changing over to a CAR.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mgCwB6zy6gk/SG-GhLvqKrI/AAAAAAAAAlQ/njIjOK87wl0/s320/145385.JPG
I’ve a friend who’s about to become a SGM with his Guard unit. I’ve known him since he was a PFC. In his recent photos, wearing the new class-A uniform, he’s sporting a 1st Marine Division patch on his right lower chest area.
Thought this to be strange, until he told me that when he deployed to Afghanistan, he worked with the USMC and received orders from them authorizing him to wear their patch.
In the walking cluster of a uniform that I have, one of my authorized SSI-FWSs is the 2nd MARDIV from my time in Iraq. I throw that one on my ACUs if I really want to confuse people.
Wow… I was about to say “Dang, I didn’t know the late MSgt Soupsandwhich had a brother!” My Bad.
The linked article about this man says all that needs to be said. His death came after his servive but as a result of his service. He deserves our respect and nothing less, Anonymous.
You know you’re an old balls blue falcon when you’re online trying to cite uniform regs regarding a earned medal being worn by a deceased person.
TAH, stay classy.
You know your a moronic troll when you mock a bunch of service members talking shop
Well said, Nucsnipe. FatCircles is a pice of a shit at times who trolls more often than not at times. He sometimes will come here and say something useful.
Pretty sure TAH was asking a question versions pointing fingers.
Actually, the new AFI (AF Instruction) shows a ton of other service badges that can be worn here
http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf
I just retired in Jan 2014 and it appears I can not wear my Navy Combat Action Ribbon any more, but I sure as hell am not going to undo my shadow box and swap for an AF Combat Action Ribbon!
R.I.P.
There is a HUGE difference between a possible uniform discrepancy and being a Poser.
I don’t think they called him a poser. They just asked a question about CIB/CAB on AF uniforms.
I don’t think anyone here has, but his pic was sent here because it was suspicious.
They already verified he wasn’t, they confirmed he is legit. Its not like its a bad thing. Maybe they just wanted some clarification. Whoever did bring this to their attention just asked a question.
Platoon SGT, 2004, wore his Dolphins proudly on his DCU’s.
Back in the day, when it was still 35-10, the CIB, Air Assault and Combat Medic badges were specifically mentioned and listed in the Order of Precedence table. Sometime in the 36-2903 days they got dropped, but the changes announced in January for the upcoming revision are supposed to return the badges as well as Ranger and Special Forces tabs.
I believe it was when the abomination that is the ABU was adopted when AFI 36-2903 banned the wear of sister service badges on fatigues…as far as I know they were always authorized on service dress; it isnt difficult to find pictures of TACPs or CCTs with CABs on their service dress.
I was stationed in Kaiserslautern Germany as an Army MP. Each Patrol car had an Army MP and an Air force SP, while we Patrolled the AO. I am authorized to wear the Air Force SP badge, on my Army uniform. There are 80 of us from 230th MP CO