Veterans in the Federal Service
Chief Tango sends us a link to Federal News Radio which discusses veterans who go to work for the Federal Government after their service. Chief Tango thought that the article was “up my alley” since I went to work for the National Archives for nearly 15 years after I retired. The article says that about 30% of federal workers are veterans keeping with President Obama’s direction to the feds five years ago. the article quotes our buddy, Brandon “Beeker” Friedman;
Friedman said he wonders whether the military is doing enough to prepare vets for the world of civilian employment, and what role that might play in the veteran discontent the survey uncovered.
“Veterans are used to a very structured environment; they’re used to having their leaders mentor them and take care of them in ways that you don’t often find in the private sector and sometimes in government,” he said. “They’re also used to taking charge of situations — leading people. And a lot of times, those opportunities aren’t there [in government].”
The problem, as I saw it, wasn’t that veterans aren’t prepared for civilian job markets, it’s that civilians aren’t prepared for veterans. My supervisors had no problem telling me that “all veterans are crazy”, the woman who told me that wasn’t kidding. Of course, they had a Vietnam veteran in the office who liked that image and cashed in on it and that reinforced the false image.
Supervisors also disregarded my leadership abilities that I’d used with some effect in the military when it came to advancement. They consistently promoted people who were good editors who couldn’t lead a horse to grain, hoping that they’d learn someday. There were 60 people in my agency, about double of the number I’d led in combat, but no one could effectively ride herd on those people.
Don’t get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed my time at the Federal Register. I liked the steady paycheck, I liked that they trusted me enough to telework, I liked the benefit package which I now enjoy in my retirement. I like the fact that I worked in West Virginia while my office was 150 miles away in DC. In that regard, the work ethic that we have in the military, greatly benefits the feds and works to our advantage, but I feel that the agency missed an opportunity by not using my leadership skills in their office.
Again, although it impacts veterans’ careers, the fact that the civilians think we’re all nutty drill sergeant types, the feds suffer from that most in the end. Of course, my job was largely clerical in nature, as a technical writer, the experiences of those who go into the law enforcement side of government may have a different experience with their co-workers than my experience.
Our buddy, Alex Horton says in the article;
“Everyone loves and supports the troops,” Horton said. “But then, when people become a veteran, there’s like this weird dichotomy. When you wore the uniform you’re a hero, and you’re selfless and you’re brave and all that. Then, when you take it off, you’re broken, or you’re suffering from PTSD.”
Like I said, that’s the civilians’ problem not ours. We’re fine. They need to step away from the movie and TV image of veterans and look at the individuals instead.
Category: Veterans Issues
I’ve been struck at the negative attitudes against vets in the federal government.
A few years back, I was hired to be a Senior Watch Officer at TSA Headquarters. TSA refused to hire me as a “supervisory” J-band (GS-14 equivalent) cause I didn’t have any supervisory experience. They said that with a straight face to a guy who had been the LPO on upwards of 30 TAD deployments, a leading CPO of over 250 Sailors, a division officer, a watch commander of over 275 people, a department head, an executive officer, and finally, a commanding officer. I know I was probably a little light on the leadership stuff, but come on!
Then there was the attitude of individuals in the federal government. One guy really disliked military members and was routinely disrespectful of senior officers. He believed that federal workers made just as many sacrifices as military members and he was beside himself when Obama froze federal pay, but not that of the military. Where did this clown work? The PENTAGON!
Just makes me shake my head in wonder. If I could retire tomorrow, I would be…GONE!
I work in a civilian company, but have a former Marine SSgt as my current boss, and he is the best Boss I have ever had. Takes care of his people, is loyal, and also has no problem letting us know we screwed up too, but in an upfront way instead of crafting passive aggressive emails or policies.
I can honestly say I was treated worse working for the Navy and Marine Corps because of my veteran status then you could ever imagine. It made my time working for the VA as the best working experience of my life. It always confused me. Not saying there weren’t good people in the Navy and Corps, but as a whole and especially from POGUE Officers, it was a horrible experience.
Jonn, you said:
” My supervisors had no problem telling me that “all veterans are crazy”, the woman who told me that wasn’t kidding. Of course, they had a Vietnam veteran in the office who liked that image and cashed in on it and that reinforced the false image.”
Bingo. I think we have to acknowledge that some of the people who do the most damage to the image of veterans are … veterans.
Just because somebody wore a uniform doesn’t mean that person can’t be a screwup, a lazy SOB or just an asshole. Unfortunately, a lot of people with these personalities also seek excuses for their bad behavior and “society” is only too ready to hand them one in the form of the “disturbed veteran” stereotype.
How many criminals, either at trial or sentencing, try to blame their criminal activity, drug addiction or other sociopathic behavior on PTSD or their military experience? Too many.
In a society such as we had in post-WWII America, where military service was a common experience that reached across class and ethnic lines, such excuses would be dismissed out of hand as what they are, i.e. excuses.
But, in our modern society, where military service is confined to an ever smaller, self-selecting military caste (off the top of my head, I’d guess 80% of todays recruits are the sons and daughters of veterans themselves), people only know the military second hand, through popular culture that emphasizes violence and action, and minimizes discipline, cameraderie and professional dedication.
In such an environment, the “disturbed veteran” stereotype takes hold with a vengeance and every time some sad-sack loser who once served in the armed forces tries to invoke it to explain away his pathetic behavior, the stereotype is reinforced.
Yeah.
I may get beat up on this, but here goes: Just because you are a Vet does not make you a good guy.
If you have an HD, then you are good in my book but that does not necessarily mean you are straight, honest or squared away.
This goes both ways.
And MJ said it best, Vets are the ones usually doing the most damage.
Sad but true.
Look at a lot of these posers (embellishers) and their bullshit.
Just an observation.
Having said the above, I’m also a fed (approaching 8 years of civil service) and our office has a large number of veterans. In fact, I think we’re close to 50% or so. We all get along well and there is no bias or prejudice against veterans here, if anything it’s the opposite.
I have been at the Fed Gov’t for 3 yrs now. I was lucky enough to get a Supervisors job. I will tell you right here and now the Vets are in now way the problem. All of the people that work for me have been here for many years and work is a 4 letter word to them. They are not smart enough to keep their mouths shut, so trying to take care of your folks gets very difficult because someone gets butt hurt when they find out what is going on. None of them can mind their own f-ing business, and all know that getting fired is near impossible. It is not PTSD that has us pissed. It is we cannot Dick stomp these little snow flakes when they do not do their jobs, like we were trained to do in the MIl.
I’ve been dealing with the same shit for the past 7 years. You are 100% right when you said the Vets aren’t the problem.
I worked in state government for 10 years and the laziest person we had was a long time member of the National Guard. Since it’s almost impossible to get fired from a state government job (we had a guy who drank and slept in his office and it took us a year to get rid of him), he just got passed from one department to another, he was a joke.
On the other hand, we also had a guy who had been a Ranger near the end of, or just after the Vietnam War. You would have never known it by looking at him, and he just quietly did his job.
Oh, it isn’t just vets being despised by the sandcrabs. I ran into that when I re-upped in 1972 and went to Great Lakes, and did all the work in the photo loab with a sandcrab department head and no one in the military to report to.
And he despised the military. He was just waiting for his retirement and pension and then he was done with us. He said so, in plain English.
So what are you supposed to do with that kind of attitude?
Not all veterans make good employees, not all civilians either… I don’t think Civilians overall “get” us, but I never had issues with any employer based on my being a Veteran. Honestly it did not come up much when I was still able to work in construction.
Now that I switched over to the dark side, I have to say the biggest adjustment for myself is getting used to the work environment here at the VA. Let me be the first to say that I feel that Veterans do deserve a better shot at jobs within the VA that they are qualified for. However, there are a number of Veteran Employees who should be given and idiot stick and sent out to pick up trash… except the idea of them carrying a pointy stick around makes me a little nervous.
They are the Privates we all hated back in our day. The shammers and scammers, the shit talking barracks lawyers, the sick call commandos… and oh do they know how to play the “Veteran” card and how to game the system to their advantage.
I have had relatively few issues with fellow employees, and it figures the one major issue I have had was because of a veteran of the aforementioned type.
Rb325th: Nope, they do not understand us at all. I am fortunate enough to be working at a base with prior active duty. Even tough for reservist who never had a taste of active duty to understand some things.
When I was at TRANSCOM at Scott doing a tour and looking around (I was stationed there 10 years ago.) civilians there wanted nothing to do with some of the military folks at all. They had a guy I worked with along time ago in there that attempted to inject his military standards into their office. Because the military to civilian people who transitioned left a bad taste in their mouth. FEMA I went to do a tour in Denton, TX office. They had a veteran in there supervising an entire EM team. This guy was gung ho ridiculous and over the top. I could see why non military/civilian personnel would be startled with a person like that. He even got some of his dumb veteran buddies jobs in the office too.
Oh when I say dumb buddies. Guys who did their 20 skimming by and not doing their jobs. One I knew in Denton office was a 20 yr E-5 or E-6, before they fixed that HYT.
Almost like he had cronies in there with him. But then again in federal agencies, buddy preference hiring seems to go along way versus hiring the right person with the right experience.
C2Show when I was in there were two types of NCOs. Professional NCOs who knew and did their jobs and then there were the…”lifers” as we called them. Slipping and sliding by until their 20. I worked with one of the lifers and he was the absolutely worst employee in the company. A no nothing, do nothing ass wipe. His long suit though…ass kissing to the Nth degree. Man he had that down in spades.
Sparks: Hell yeah, that is what was happening in Denton office of FEMA. 20 yr E-5/6 Command Post guys sitting in there, I would be surprised that they even finished their CCAF. They were yes men to the Denton Supervisor and buddies from previous assignmants.
TRANSCOM and TACC at Scott AFB pretty much has the same hiring policy it seems. They hire only people who worked in those offices previously in military compacity. TACC hired some screwballs and ass wipes who had sketchy military records. One dude who stole from BX got hired around HQ AMC. One dude who did nothing in his career, never deployed and avoided deploying for 15 years, got hired up there. Only because they greased some GS-14 or 13 wheels and buddied up with someone to take a connection.
I hate to even tell employers in Command and Control world that I workd in TACC because it is seen as an easy way into front door.
“The problem, as I saw it, wasn’t that veterans aren’t prepared for civilian job markets, it’s that civilians aren’t prepared for veterans.”
Jonn I think you hit the nail on the head and countersunk it as well. That statement is the crux of the problem. The Vietnam guy rockin’ the crazy vet for all the mileage he could get is a part of the problem that made it worse for all of us. When I entered civilian life and employment I did not work for veterans and they all had the same preconceived, Hollywood, notions about vets. Made it doubly hard to overcome the image and prove myself. If you got upset about the usual BS going on in the job, like everyone else did, you were the, “upset whacky vet” sounding off and thus dismissed. Fought that battle for years until I finally got to work for a retired SFC and he was the very best manager I ever had, bar none. Common sense, leadership skills, no BS and looked after his people. I could not have asked for better.
I have to say so far E-8 was the best manager I ever worked for. Had a retired E-9 as a manager in contracting, he was a nightmare. But this guy I currently work for has been awesome.
Rather work for a vet because they can multitask more than civilian can in my career field.
I keep telling overyone on this site that us Crazy 8’s are a breed apart.
“The Vietnam guy rockin’ the crazy vet for all the mileage he could get is a part of the problem…”
A whole lot of that was civilian posers that never got close to serving in any way what-so-ever, and stolen valor types that never set foot in Vietnam.
Oh, and aided and abetted by journalists who were either thumb-sucking stupid or ideologically motivated.
You mean by publishing crap like this, Grimmy?
Guy’s name is Roni De Joseph of Brooklyn, NY. Never served a day in uniform. Burkett and Whitley outed that bastard in their book Stolen Valor.
Sorry, “Everyone”. We cannot spell to good either, maybe that is why we did not make 9.
LOL no worries, E-8 who are awesome usually never care or want to make E-9. Funny he always makes fun of Chiefs. Just finished talking to one E-9 who is working on the floor of a command center…give him A for effort but he seems out of his element and does not know what is going on.
I don’t know about the other services but in the Army I’m fairly certain that a promotion to E-9/SGM requires a removal of the brains and for the step up to CSM they take the balls as well.
Seriously, I’ll bet we could fill several pages with CSM/SGM stories…
Martinjmpr, that is how Air Force goes too. Sounds about right.
After how many tests?
I did a few years shortly after retiring working in a USMC Recruiting Station as the only civilian and loved it. Then I went to a massive office in Treasury. Wow, what a massive difference. The military trains you to do the next job from the moment you pile off the bus and put your foot on the yellow. Where I work now is the the best example of setting people up for failure that could be invented. Terrible training programs for the job you have, no mentoring or training for the next level, and some great people promoted to management that couldn’t lead a horse to water. The worse part of promoting people to management that can’t cut it, is the number of other careers they ruin while demonstrating it.
There was a post on the VA blog bragging about a workforce comprised of 27% veterans. I thought that was a shame, over 70 percent of the VA employees never served? Understand a lot of VA is healthcare, wonder what the ratio is in VBA or Education Services? Those who served should be administering our benefits, IMO.
I have a tough time generalizing whether veterans are our own worse enemy. I suspect in some cases it’s true, in others, not so much.