“Friendly Atheist” and Legion Post battle over contributions to Park District
Crossposted from the paying gig, but I thought some of you might want to weigh in…
When I deployed to Afghanistan and Bosnia as an infantryman, in dealing with different cultures my guiding star was to remember that I was acting as a sort of Ambassador for my country. As such, I had to show respect for the culture, whatever my personal opinions on certain things. In both warzones I participated in various public events, gatherings and discussions with the locals. On some of those occasions the discussions had a religious component, either specifically stated, or latently present. I drank innumerable cups of sugary tea with Imam’s, local religious leaders and people of religions other than my own. When a local leader would call upon Allah to guide us in our discussion, I simply bowed my head and mirrored my own invocation that peace and progress would come from the meeting. When I rode along in the Afghan National Army vehicles emblazoned with the flag of their country, I respected their love of country and culture. It never really bothered me. When I went to Senegal last year a village wise man and religious leader asked if he could pray over us. I have no idea what religion he was, although our interpreter struggled to explain the tenets which seemed to have an Anamist bent to it. Again, I bowed my head and internally asked for blessings to come upon these West Africans.
To me, that seemed the respectful thing to do. I certainly had the constitutional right to walk out, I just didn’t see a need to avail myself of it. I’m a bit of a liberal religiously I suppose. To each their own. If someone had called on the power of the Great Spaghetti Monster to smite our enemies, I would have kept my head bowed, and my opinions to myself.
Now, I bring that up only to let you know where I stand on such things. Because it does factor in to this debate. First, the background from the Chicago Tribune:
This fall, members of American Legion Post 134 [Illinois] announced that the group no longer would contribute financial and volunteer support for park programs until [Morton Grove, IL] Park District Commissioner Dan Ashta stands when the pledge is recited at the start of Park District board meetings.
Post commander Joseph Lampert said at the time that the veterans group did not expect Ashta to recite the pledge or place his hand over his heart. They did, however, expect him to stand out of respect.
Ashta, an attorney who focuses on constitutional law, said placing the pledge on the agenda forces meeting attendees to stand, which is an act of speech. His refusal to stand, he said, is a defense of the public’s right to free speech.
Not standing is certainly Ashta’s right. And not donating resources is certainly a prerogative of an American Legion post. I want to cite to another article which more fully lays out the Legion posts position:
Post 134 Commander Joseph Lampert attended the Oct. 24 park board meeting to confront Commissioner Dan Ashta on his choice not to stand for the Pledge, and to announce the Legion’s decision.
“On behalf of our post, it is with some regret that we fully respect the right of individuals to not stand during the pledge of allegiance,” Lampert said. “All veterans have been willing to lose their lives for that right, and many have. With that being said, while we support that right, we do not accept it.
“Regrettably, we will be withholding funds from the park district until such time that everyone rises for the pledge,” Lampert continued. “We feel that it’s disrespectful to all veterans that have been willing to sacrifice their lives for this country and it is a great dishonor to all servicemen and women who have paid the ultimate sacrifice and died for this country.”
Now, some of you might note the story, and the incongruence with my opening statement, and ask “why did you start with a discussion of religious respect when this issue deals only with respect for the flag”? Well, because this has somehow morphed into a battle between “Christian activists” and atheists.
A blogger going by the name of “The Friendly Atheist” [pictured above] takes a dim view of the Legion withholding these resources. Among his statements include these:
…[An] American Legion group is punishing a public institution for not catering to their juvenile demands.
….Yeah! Our veterans died so you could have the freedom to express your beliefs! And if you express them, we’re gonna punish you! We love the Constitution, just not the First Amendment! [This portion he assures me is sarcasm]
…how petty do you have to be to punish the residents of Morton Grove because one of the park district’s board members doesn’t want the Pledge to be on the meeting’s agenda?
You can read his posts HERE and HERE.
Now, since The American Legion post withdrew their $2,600 support for these events, “The Friendly Atheist” did what seemed the appropriate response to me, and raised the funds from within his circle of readers and supporters.. I’m certainly very fine with that. (As was the Post Commander, Joe Lambert who I talked with earlier today.) Here is a video that the blogger made:
Nonetheless, he apparently wanted to continue taking shots at the Legion post, despite the fact that he conceded in an email to me and on his blog that they were under no obligation to make any donations. [He also said that it appears to him that the Legion does in fact do some “wonderful things.] In addition to referring to Commander Lambert’s position as a “childish tirade” and a “hissy fit” he went on to accuse the Legion of being a “group of Christian activists who can’t see past their own privilege.”
Now, in an update yesterday in the Chicago Tribune we find that the Park District refused the money [note that “Mehta” is the “Friendly Atheist”]:
In an email to Mehta, Park District Executive Director Tracey Anderson said the Park District board “has no intention of becoming embroiled in a First Amendment dispute.”
The email also says Park District officials do not want to appear “sympathetic to,” or show a perceived position for or against, “any particular political or religious cause.”
“I’m a little shocked,” said Mehta, 30, a Naperville resident and teacher who writes a blog called the Friendly Atheist.
“The weird thing is … I kind of feel like I mentioned exactly why I was giving the donation early on, and they said, ‘If you want to send a donation, send it to us.'”
Like I said, I spoke to Commander Lambert this morning, to clarify a few things. First, he never felt this had anything to do with religion in any way. In fact, the post is host to “people from all walks of life” some of whom are probably Atheists or practitioners of other faiths. When the decision was made to not submit the funds, it was not intended as some sort of salvo in a nascent religious war, but rather a representation that the Post believes that respect for veterans, and compliance with religious views and personal feelings can be met by a simple standing and respectful pose while others recite the pledge.
Second, he didn’t have a problem personally with the Atheists donating to the Park if that’s what they wanted to do. In fact, he even kind of chuckled at the thought that part of the donation would be to replace the $300 that the Legion had previous given for the town’s “Easter Extravaganza.” The irony of Atheists being a sponsor of Easter is rather humorous.
Third, the post doesn’t give $2,600 to the community a year; it has given over $17,000 this year alone. The $2,600 was only one small part of their charitable giving. The Legion Post there sponsors Boy Scout troops, American Legion Baseball teams, attendees at Boys State, the National Emergency Fund, the Operation Comfort Warriors and a host of other type things. Commander Lambert was eager to note that it’s not as if the money won’t end up going to the community, it just won’t go through the Park District chaired by a person who wouldn’t stand for the pledge.
I also emailed with the “Friendly Atheist” this morning, and he did seem to be “Friendly” despite how I feel about what appeared to me to be the hurling of rhetorical grenades with his statements on his blog listed above. His main argument was he feels that the Legion’s precondition for the funds was “ridiculous.” Um. Ok. I guess as I told him that ridiculousness is in the eye of the beholder. I’m not sure how you attack an organization for withholding what they are free to withhold and argue that there is some sort of constitutional issue in play though. I know of no constitutional imperative that says you must give your personal money to a specific entity like the parks people, excepting indirectly through taxes. It seems odd that never once does the Friendly Atheist in previous years appear to be appreciative of the donations in the past, it is only when they refrain from giving them that the Legion becomes a factor in his writing.
For my part, I just wish the Park District had taken their check. As far as I know currency knows no religious affiliation. (Well, except “In God We Trust” of course.) Apparently he is donating it to the library, which seems a worthwhile endeavor as well. But I am still flummoxed at any argument that a private organization is to be lambasted and ridiculed for spending their own charitable donations in a manner they deem fit. To me that is the essence of the First Amendment, the right to associate with whom one wishes.
Category: Politics
If withholding donations is punishment, that implies that the recipient has some claim to the funds that mandates their donation. Rather, making a donation is a reward and only in the mind of a leftist is the withholding of unearned reward a punishment.
Does it seem to anyone else like atheists do this stuff just because they can? I respect everyone’s right to freedom of speech under the 1st Amendment, but that doesn’t mean we should speak anything anytime anywhere we want because we can. That obviously applies to Christians as well (looking at you, Kent Hovind), but Atheists just seem to love doing this to piss people off and get their names in the papers more than anyone else. I remember that in my hometown, they sued after a Presbyterian Church put up a Nativity scene in the local park, saying it imposed Christian reviews on society via a public government owned place and thus constituted preferential treatment. Um, hello? The fact that they can speak there doesn’t mean you can’t. If you like, it’s perfectly within your rights to speak up for YOUR views and put up a “rational thought” promotion board right across the path. As long as everyone’s got the right permits and the people issuing them aren’t prejudiced in how they hand them out, everything’s good. This seems to be a distinction many Atheists struggle with. They complain so incessantly about religions voicing their views (although they focus particularly on Christianity rather than any other religion, like Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, etc.; why is that?), never realizing that the fact that someone can express their views in a public place does not mean they can’t. Free speech by one party is not prejudice or muzzling of the other party.
How can you tell if there is a militant atheist in the room? They tell you…
I have always been amazed at how some people have morphed their understanding of the First Ammendment to mean that they can say whatever they want, without fear of any consequences. To me, that’s always been a coward’s way of viewing things.
Actions can have consequences and repercussions. The Framers knew that, as during teh Revolution printers could end up having their presses destroyed (or even end up tarred and feathered) for what they printed. Clearly, they intended that the Government couldn’t take action, but it didn’t mean taht private citizens couldn’t. Just because you’ve created a piece of art doesn’t mean that I have to display it in my gallery. Just because you’ve published a book doesn’t mean I have to sell it in my bookstore. If you write things on my blog that get others to counter, doesn’t mean I have to remove their postings (Ha! I worked Psul into my post!).
In this case, as I see it, the Legion Post has limited resources, and has decided to use those resources in another way, in support of someone or something more in line with their view of acceptable behavior. And that’s perfectly acceptable. Just as Ashta’s behavior is also perfectly acceptable as his exercise of his right to freedom of speech. Clearly, he’s willing to accept the consequences of his actions, to the tune of $2600, plus whatever volunteer hours they lose.
I don’t see why the park commission wouldn’t take “friendly athiest’s” money (although, again, there’s not really a discussion of volunteer hours lost). I suspect they decided that, in the grand scheme of things, all they really want is the whole thing to go away. That is, if the commission as a whole decided to not take the contribution, and it wasn’t just Ashta’s decision.
Atheism is just as much a religious practice as any that worship the Choir Invisible. And atheism is populated by the same annoying, self-important, smug twerps that population other religions of all kinds.
They all think they know better than anyone else what the rest of us should think about matters spiritual, and they waste no time, leave no stone unturned, to let us know just exactly how much more important their opinions are than ours.
It’s the reason I want to punch any proselytyzer right smack in the nose.
Re: my post #5, that atheism is just as much a religion as any of the rest of them, here’s something from the Chicago news: http://wgntv.com/2013/12/04/athiest-display-adorns-daley-plaza/
I kid you not.
It is always amazing that those complaining about having their speech impeded generally are doing so loudly. In public. Usually they are only stopped when their free speech impedes that of someone one else.
And they wonder why we laugh and point as they are doing it.
“Ashta, an attorney who focuses on constitutional law, said placing the pledge on the agenda forces meeting attendees to stand, which is an act of speech. His refusal to stand, he said, is a defense of the public’s right to free speech.” Excuse me? He is defending free speech by not standing for the Pledge of Allegiance? That is cute. And Mehta talks about hissy fits? What Ashta is doing is saying, ‘Folk, when you stand, I won’t, consistent with my right of free speech. I will, therefore, be disrupting yours by calling attention to myself and grandstanding the matter.’ What I say is F Ashta and his dirty diaper–or has he finally made it to pull-ups?
Hey, I have an idea. There is no constitutional right to chairs. Pull them out of the place before the next meeting. Have one or two available for the infirm–reserved.
Like it, AC. Very good idea!
We used to have this discussion in ethics. The difference between harming someone and not helping them, the Legion is just not helping them. If the legion went around the town and burned down a park that would be punishment, not giving the town money to have another display is not helping.
An Atheist’s epitaph:
“Here lies a dead Atheist, all dressed up with nowhere to go!”
Said it before, say it again–boy, they sure get all butthurt over something they don’t even believe in, don’t they?
@^ Ex-PH2
They don’t seem to understand that a nativity scene displays what you believe in. So why would an atheist display anything? They don’t believe in anything so their display should be nothing….
A display by atheists is only meant to ridicule someone else, As a Christian, when I see a Menorah I know Jews are not ridiculing me. When a nativity is set up, it is not set up in an effort to ridicule someone else’s belief. Atheists, on the other hand, do this kind of thing just to stick their thumb in someone else’s eye.
1) Another “hey I’m a cool leftest lawyer. See I have my scruffy beard and everything” dipshit.
2) You don’t Pledge to support the Government you asshole. You pledge to support the flag, our Country and by extension The Constitution which is the basis for our country and how it should be run.
If he doesn’t understand this then WTF is he a lawyer and on the board for in the first place. No-one is forcing this dipshit to Pledge if he doesn’t want to just stand out of respect for our men and women that have died in defense of it. It’s the same courtesy and respect that someone in a church not of their particular faith would exercise. Stand with everyone and remain silent out of respect for their religion.
I have a lot of thoughts on this one but I think that the most important one is why in the hell to veterans think that they deserve more respect than non veterans? People have very complex histories. There once was a woman who joined the Air Force of a not to be named country. When she was 17 years and 10 months old. After her initial training she went on to serve in occupation duty in country half way around the world that did not attack her country at a cost to the country she was supposeldly serving at 2 million dollars a year per service person. She did not really have any contact with the local population but she sure helped the moral of those military personnel who did. Then she came back and after a few years she left the service to attend college. To support herself she worked as a life guard on the beach in Califonia. While working as a life guard at great risk to herself she rescued someone from the ocean. The next day she killed her husband with an antique revolver because he was having an affair with her still attractive mother. While in prison the woman taught many other prisoners from disadvanted backgrounds to read. When she was released from prison she could not get a decent job even though she had a teaching degree. No school would hire a convicted murderer. At some point she started selling pot to make some extra money. But while selling pot she witnessed a murder and took the stand to ID the culprit even though that placed her life in grave danger. Then took expand her pot business she joined the VFW. Today she is in charge of the finances of her local VFW. A person’s honor is only as good as the causes that they support. Almost everyone one of us have served good and bad causes during our life time. So why should some people get more honor than others? I think something very important here is when some people raise a… Read more »
Derp.
@16 Curt, go put yourself in harms way to help someone or save someone else’s life, and then get back to us on the issue of veterans deserving more respect. No man is so blind as the man who will not see, and right now, you’re about as blind as it gets.
@17. I may be mistaken, but I believe that mess in comment 16 is the Swiss version of Joycean stream of consciousness writing. It’s called alpine ass yodeling.
Curtsie, the freedoms you enjoy were paid for via many a Veterans’ blood, sweat, tears, and lives. You’re welcome, you snot-nosed sniveling ingrate!
@19, ok, that got a good chuckle from me.
Curt – maybe you should show your respect as you would hope visitors to Switzerland would – respect the local customs, don’t participate but don’t disrupt or interrupt them… you know, the way polite grown-ups do. I really do doubt that anyone at a football game would care what your loyalties were if you respected ours, just as when attending matches overseas we would pay appropriate respect as they do. But anyone who sits when all else are standing, talks when others are silent, etc. exposes themselves as a churlish self-involved child, regardless of age or occupation.
Moron Grove (typo intentional)-is the Chicago suburb that made national headlines for banning handguns decades ago.
Curt is just a far more verbose version of vwp. The amount of stupid in either of their blatherings is about equal; that is to say, infinity.
Curt’s point is that he has no point to make.
I have a lot of thoughts on this one but I think that the most important one is why in the hell to veterans think that they deserve more respect than non veterans?
Yah, you kinda missed the entire point there Curt. Veterans don’t think they deserve more respect, they wanted an ELECTED OFFICIAL to show respect to the flag or better put, the ideals that flag represents…..like the democracy that allowed him to get elected and serve in a position of power. He is choosing to be disrespectful to the system that he ran to be part of….dontchya think he got it a little ass backward there Curt?
I have no point to make. I do have a confession to make. I admire people who break out of prison. I especially admire people who have broken out of prison more than once. It does not matter that the person who broke out was a murder or a rapist.
Prisons have been designed by smart people to keep dangerous people inside them. A lot of money was spent to make it almost impossible to get out.
But the people that do get out are an extreme testiment to human engenuity. How can I not admire that? Dangerous people belong in prison. I hope that once a prisoner escapes the prisoner gets caught before they hurt anyone else. Or that they make it to France and join the foriegn legion and become the unit chaplin spending the rest of their lives teaching kids to read and how to safely handle double barrel shot guns, and secretly setting up networks of communist agents in every location that they serve in.
That is also a way that they could pay their dues to society. So while I hope that prisoners spend their time paying their dues, one way or another, I hope that they never give up trying to escape.
Tanker, I agree I had the incorrect impression that that the American Legion was upset by this persons refusal to stand because they interpreted it as an insult directed to veterans. No it now seems appatent that this refusal to stand for the pledge is an insult aimed at all Americans and all monotheists. I support his right to make such an insult. I do not know if I think that he should make such an insult. It may take me ten or twenty years to make up my mind about that.
Curtsie, I’m certain that you, like vwpissbucket, are your own cousin.
Is Curt @#16 the same as Curt Kastens? I don’t think so.
Curt@16 rambles incoherently, to no purpose.
Curt Kastens, on the other hand, knows what it means if someone says “Get to the point, Edna.”
@2 my favorite part about the Christmas stuff is I have never met a non-believer, or a muslim, or a jehovah or anyone who has offered to come to work on Christmas day and produce materials because they don’t feel right taking money for something they don’t believe in….
If you don’t believe in it but you are quite happy taking the money what does that make you?
I have some ideas….
29 Ex-PH2
It’s the same Curt….our buddy from Germany…
I have always felt you can do whatever the fuck you want (legally) in this country. Say whatever you want to say (legally). Act out (legally) however you want to act out. Just be prepared to face the consequences of your actions. I put my ass on the line for 24 years believing that.
Don’t want to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, don’t, but don’t get butthurt if there are consequences. Pretty simple concept to me.
It is with some hesitation that I make the following suggestion. When I was at West Point I was heard some officer saying that fraternization with the enemy and fraternization with the enlisted ranks were both types of conduct that could get an officer court marshalled. So I am not sure that I am allowed to actually make this suggestion to people who fall in to both of the those catagories. The thing is I have been waiting for something to happen for once on the Juan Cole blog and I whlie I was waiting I read Curt’s comments above about breaking out of prison and they inspired me to come up with a way to reduce unemployment in the USA.
This is how it would be done. Every prisoner will be told when he arrives for his sentence that if he escapes he will recieve five extra years of prison the first time that he has successfully escaped. But any prisoner who manages to escape twice will not be punished. NO they will be rewarded. The second time that they escape they will be given a job. They will be transfered to a different prison where they will have the job to escape again. Starting salary 36,000 dollars a year. If they escape again they will be given a promotion and transfered to a different prison where there new job will be to escape again. As long as they keep escaping they will continue to get promotions and a new assignment.
@29, betting one and the same. They have been all over the place on here. Never having the pleasure of readins Curts drivel here before I googled the name…. someone left the door open allowing someone to fly over the cuckoos nest…
Curt’s Stingey Mouse (whatever a stingey mouse is)
Why would you re-read your own comments, get re-inspired by re-reading your re-comments, and then comment like you’re somebody else? How many people named Curt are sharing your IP address? Because they are all coming from the same one in Germany…
I wish to comment. I have something to say. Not everone can own a goldfish or I guess I should say not everyone should own a goldfish. When that woman was murdered in Paris last week, it reminded me of why I left there in the first place. Turtles. Then once when I was walking along the Seine, I saw a turtle and wondered whether I shouldn’t just go to Germania or the Red Cross flag country with all of the nazi gold still in vaults and the paintings, some of which are quite good or at least worth a lot of money. But not London though I remember that I landed in Heathrow once and was treated rudely and my pet was taken. So, don’t go there is my advice to you.
OldTanker, for that heads up, my thanks.
If that’s the case, then: Curt, you’re a dipstick. And I’m being polite when I say that.
I just received notice that there is a new Western novel written by two guys who took different viewpoints over whether a Western required extensive historical research or a simple list of ingredients, e.g., cowboy, guns, horse, sunset, etc. In the end, they decided to include a unicorn instead of a horse, because the cowboy simply needs a mount, and everyone knows that unicorns eat skittles and don’t require expensive boarding stables, which means they are low-maintenance critters.
http://www.amazon.com/Unicorn-Western-Full-Saga-Books-ebook/dp/B00CXAEC4A/?tag=lesgedi-20
So this just proves that anyone can write anything, even if it’s drivel by joe the rockclimbing nuggethunter, or Curt the meandering and pointless.
But I digress.
Well, we know about Curt’s fetish now. Prison.
I predict this thread will not end well. And I’ll probably get blocked at worka again. *sigh*
Cavalierly dogbody dream pharmacopoeist unwitty battleship giardia apodeictically underdevelope coquetry greenage chelyabinsk apocarpy dinosaur. Impasted rememorized gummata nautiloid kermess wavell linotype sunstar secretively nondormant phallism ecumenicalism cantillating pappier. Tautologist monomorphic gunyah turpentinic pseudolegality harquebus candlepins teethless akkerman malacophilous maker faddism amalgam acetazolamide. Backdoor candy cimon superoutput bkpt knightliness villanovan hubris offset tolerableness pommelling lawman embryoid barber. Brolga fah stockhausen hangfire qbp docentship harpist yirr desmid uncompliant civvy grimaced temporised solfataric.
I think part of the problem is that by the elected official not standing he is making a statement for the town. The town is stating that it is okay. I think the guy is probably an asshole.
@36…. low-brow high-brow – I love it