Should Due Process Really Be Optional for the Second Amendment?
Something IMO noteworthy happened the other day in Granola State, AKA the People’s Republic of Kalifornia. It’s actually been happening there for some time.
The police went to a person’s home and confiscated their firearms.
California requires registration of certain types of firearms. It thus also maintains a database of registered firearms – close to one million of them at present.
Periodically, they also cross-reference this database against those recently convicted of felonies, and against those involuntarily committed to mental institutions.
In theory, there’s no issue. The Constitution’s 10th Amendment clearly places barring felons from firearms possession or ownership within the scope of state authority; Federal law likewise says felons cannot lawfully possess firearms. Their original criminal trial provided the due process required under the 5th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution for that to be permissible.
And those who’ve been involuntarily committed “clearly” shouldn’t have access to firearms. Allowing that would be absurd – right?
And yet . . . .
Well, let’s tale a good look at that second part. Because I for one find certain facts regarding and implications raised by one recent case occurring in California disturbing as hell.
And since Jonn lets me post here, you’re gonna hear about my concerns – whether you want to or not. If you keep reading, that is. (smile)
. . .
As the article linked above notes: a lady in California was recently committed – involuntarily. She remained committed for two days, then was released. Since she was released back to her own home, she’s obviously not a clear danger to herself or others; otherwise she’d presumably still be involuntarily committed.
As far as I know, she’s also not been declared either mentally incompetent or a danger to self/others by any judge or court. She was (allegedly) involuntarily committed on the word of a healthcare worker who (according to the individual committed) “exaggerated the magnitude of her condition”. (The facility that treated her was apparently contacted for comment but did not release any information regarding her condition or treatment.)
Because she’d been involuntarily committed, she was “flagged” by a later database comparison as someone who wasn’t allowed to own weapons. State police later visited her home. When they did, they confiscated a weapon registered in her name.
They also confiscated two weapons registered to her husband at the same time. They did so because his possession of those firearms was deemed to giver her “access to them”.
Think about that for a moment. Her husband (presumably) has committed no crime, nor has he been adjudged mentally incompetent or deficient. But his weapons were confiscated too, because his possession of them might give someone else “access” – in this case, his wife.
. . .
The implications here are to me very disturbing, in three separate ways.
First: two individuals’ Constitutional rights have been denied without due process. No court was involved in this action (the seizure described above was apparently made without a warrant). No judge heard evidence concerning the woman’s condition from her healthcare provider, her, or others. She has not been adjudged to be legally “mentally defective or incompetent”; she was committed for short duration solely (allegedly) on the basis of a healthcare provider’s word. She was also obviously not considered a danger to self or others, as she was released two days later.
Yet her Second Amendment rights – which have now been held to be binding on the states by the SCOTUS in McDonald v. Chicago – have been abridged by the state. The Fourteenth Amendment requires “due process” to do that. There hasn’t been any – either procedural or substantial. And since we’re dealing with a Constitutional right, both substantial and procedural due process would seem to be required before that right can be denied by the state.
The same is true for her husband. Here, the situation is even more disturbing. His Second Amendment rights have also been abridged, and his property confiscated – property that he can legally own under the laws of the People’s Republic of Kalifornia. And he’s likewise had not due process before his property was confiscated. Rather, his property was confiscated based solely on the act or condition of another person – a condition that is now in dispute, and which apparently has never received an unbiased hearing by an impartial observer.
The “access” part also raises troubling questions. Suppose the man had a friend who was a felon, and who visited him on occasion. Would that also be grounds for confiscation of his weapons – because his friend would “have access to weapons” during a visit? Using the same logic, the police would be able to confiscate your car if your teenage son living at home lost his license – because your having an auto would “give him access” to an automobile, whether or not he had your permission to use it or even had the keys to unlock and drive it.
It would seem to me that, sans a court order, both of these individuals has a valid claim for denial of Constitutional rights against California. Each of them has had fundamental rights guaranteed by the US Constitution denied them by the state without due process. The opinion of a single healthcare provider or administrative official simply doesn’t appear to me to be sufficient to constitute “due process”. The US Constitution requires due process before rights can be denied. And the SCOTUS has held that both substantive and procedural due process are required when fundamental Constitutional rights are involved.
Second: the potential for abuse here is high- high enough to scare the bejezus out of anyone who knows a bit of history.
Bogus mental health diagnoses of “insanity” are a well-documented tool of modern authoritarian dictatorships. Two of the most odious dictatorships in history – 1930s Germany and the USSR – used bogus insanity diagnoses routinely against dissidents and other “unfavored” groups. The results weren’t pretty. If you want some details, look up how the USSR treated Andrei Sakharov (and many others).
Further, and with apologies up-front: IMO if any profession rivals the legal profession regarding a high percentage having unwarranted arrogance and delusions of omniscience, it’s the medical profession. Overbearing, arrogant doctors are as legendary and as common as overbearing, arrogant lawyers/politicians. (Remember: most professional politicians are also lawyers.) And due to their self-perceptions of omniscience, like lawyers and politicians many such overbearing, obnoxious healthcare providers also routinely assume they’re experts not only in their chosen profession but in all fields.
Take that arrogance and self-perception of general omniscience and mix in an anti-gun bias, and you have the potential for abuse. But we don’t have to worry about that, do we – because a healthcare provider would never let personal bias and/or politics affect their professional judgment, or cause them to abuse it. Right?
Yeah, right. For a counterexample, as I said above: see Sakharov, Andrei. And countless others.
Oh, and did I mention that there have been arguments in the recent past in the US in favor of firearms regulation due to public health impact – many of which were made by healthcare experts and/or practitioners?
Finally: the diagnosis of “mental illness” in the US (and the world in general) is – to be charitable – elastic and malleable as hell. Indeed, there are currently serious proposals within mental health community for new “mental condition” diagnoses that if adopted could render literally over half the US population subject to being diagnosed as having a “mental condition”. Indeed, even the mental health profession is concerned about this seemingly over-broad expansion of diagnoses of “mental disorders”; as of February 2012 over 11,000 mental health practitioners had signed a petition calling for a “cease work” on the newest proposed Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) for precisely this reason.
The mental healthcare community’s push to expand their sphere of influence is understandable based on human nature. More possible diagnoses means more work; more work means more employment opportunities, a larger profession, more influence, and more income. The why behind this is well-understood. It’s called “follow the money.”
Yet that also potentially gives that community great influence outside their area of expertise. Suppose for the sake of argument that states begin limiting the rights of anyone with a “mental condition” regarding firearms ownership? Or driving? Or in the management of their own money or property? After all, they’ve been diagnosed by “experts” as having “mental issues” – so they’re obviously not legally competent, right? Even though that’s not been determined in court?
Think that can’t possibly happen? Think again. It already has – at least twice. For the first example, see above about California, firearms ownership, and “access”. And for the second: the VA is already reporting those who require a financial conservator as “mentally deficient” to NICS by default unless those individuals can convince the VA otherwise.
. . .
The denial of a Constitutional right is not something to be taken lightly, even when it comes to public safety and health. In particular, it should not IMO be left to the word or whim of one person.
Per the Constitution’s 14th Amendment, lawful denial of rights requires due process. Further, the SCOTUS has held that both substantial and procedural due process is required for the denial of rights guaranteed by the Constitution itself.
Felons receive that in the trial in which they are convicted. However, I don’t see how someone being involuntarily committed for two days and released – or having a spouse who’s been involuntarily committed, then released – and who has not been determined by a court of law to be incompetent and/or a danger to self/others qualifies as “due process” for the purpose of denying rights protected by the Constitution. The same IMO is true for the determination of financial incompetence by a VA staffer.
Constitutional rights are precious things. They should not be denied based merely on irrational fears, or on the whim of a single individual who may have an axe to grind or an agenda to promote. And California’s practice of confiscating firearms without court orders– and the VA’s similar practice of reporting veterans requiring financial conservators as “mentally deficient” in the absence of any court determination of same – establishes the precedent that such a denial of rights without due process is allowable.
All roads do not lead to Rome; some lead to far less desirable destinations. And one rather famous road leading elsewhere is paved with the best of intentions.
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Well put, Hondo.
Excellent read Hondo…..keep on writing ’em.
Awesome… However… moot in my case. Heinlein said it best:
“I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.”
? Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
They may call me a racist for putting 2 in the black on everyone that comes through the door…
Unfortunately I see a push by the anti-gun lobby to try to put such laws in place. At the same time there will be an increase in medical liability suits against mental health professionals whose patients go commit acts of violence with a firearm. Rather than risking litigation the mental health providers will automatically submit reports to law enforcement stating the patient should not have access to a firearm.
Freedom’s just another word for nothin’ left to lose.
– Janis Joplin (Kristofferson and Foster; Me and Bobby McGee)
Herkimer County, NY:
Old crazy white guy with guns, goes nuts kills four and wounds 2 … police hunting him now!
Suspect is Kurt Meyers of Mohawk.
@5 That will be just about all of us. Reasoning? Because anyone who owns a gun (for self defense, at any rate) has already been through the mental argument about killing someone else. We’ve already given ourselves the “green light” to kill another human being, if we deem it necessary.
That’s referred to as “ideation” in psych-lingo.
It took me awhile to see what was happening after Sandy Hook. I was one of those advocating for stricter mental health controls. Well…my only excuse is I forgot who we’re dealing with as far as their end game goes. They want ALL OF US disarmed…not just the criminals or the nutjobs. The net now has three sides, a.)Political b.) law enforcement and now, c.) mental health. The can’t legislate 2A away, so they’ve decided on a slower but no less effective method of killing — they intend to smother it to death.
Ex-PH2: while Janice Joplin’s version is the one most remember, she was either the 8th or 9th artist to record Me and Bobby McGee. Roger Miller was the first; Bill Haley, Kenny Rogers and the First Edition, Kris Kristofferson and at least 3 others all recorded and released it before Joplin did.
Kristofferson was quite a talented songwriter, and wrote a number of what are now considered classics: “Me and Bobby McGee”, “For the Good Times”, “Sunday Mornin’ Comin’ Down”, and “Help Me Make It Through the Night”. His personal history is also quite interesting, if perhaps a bit checkered at times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris_Kristofferson
Definitely a guy who believed in himself and wasn’t afraid to live his own life.
Knock, knock, knock.
“Who is it?”
“Police. Can you come to the door, please?”
“Um, no. Just leave a note or call me.”
OR
“Sure. Do you have a warrant? No? Bye.”
IMO, this is very definitely a slippery slope funneling inevitably … human nature being unchanged since Cain murdered his brother … into the wide gate and broad way that leads to … serious Evil, re: Nazi Germany and USSR.
Police. “Do you have any weapons in the house?”
“Why, do you suspect me of committing a crime? If so, I want a lawyer.”
Police. Mind if we come in?
“Yes, I do.”
Great research, great clarification and great conclusions on the unintended consequences of good intentions. The overriding concerns are: who is deciding when someone is mentally unstable, what DSM diagnosis is necessary, how is this reported – so much for confidentiality, watch what you say to that “Mental Health Professional”- and who decides when your mental illness is cured and you can have your guns back, or can you ever?
Non-criminal justice people commit people. Then the criminal justice system has to decide whether you can have your guns back through some type of hearing? I will bet this will take a lawyer, money, time and perseverance.
Your concerns of what was documented in the Soviet Union of just such abuse is a great example. However we do not have to go to those lengths, watch Dianne Fienstien in the Senate Hearing (With disdain.) – label (Diagnos?) every returning vet from Iraq and Afghanistan mentally unstable – making them not appropriate for exemption from her ban. This from a Senator of the United States, who took an oath to defend and protect the Constitution – dismisses these returning soldiers’ “… right to keep and bear arms.” outright!
This from a Forty Year Politician? She does not understand how people take such condensation (See John Kerry vs Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and her reasons for her own conceal carry when she was the terrible Mayor of San Francisco) – especially when they went to war with your vote(Blessing?). She does not take her oath and votes in the Senate seriously! May the wrath of all veterans come down hard on such a haggard, old, worn out lefty elite who is desperate to leave some legacy before she leaves this world.
VA states that they are no longer reporting Financial Conservatorship to the NICS as was stated in that link you provided. Aslo, I believe a challenge was put forth to produce a Veteran who had his weapons taken away for only Finnancial Conservatorship who was not also “bat shit crazy” I believe was the term used.
Californias laws are extremely harsh and are a good place to get an idea of what some of our esteemed members of Congress would like to see happen. Just make it so no one qualifies for a gun license. A very scary sentance in there.. Says it all about the attitude of the left. Civil Liberties be damned.
http://www.npr.org/2012/08/16/158932528/states-arent-submitting-records-to-gun-database
“Gun rights can always be restored,” says Nick Wilcox, whose daughter was murdered by a mentally ill man in 2001 in California, and who is also a volunteer state lobbyist in California with the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.
“But our daughter does not have the opportunity to come back to life,” he says. “So we feel it’s always best to err on the side of public safety, and you can worry about the civil rights of the mental health patients at a later time.”
There does have to be a means of keeping guns out of the hands of people who should not have them though, and yes some people do just go batshit crazy after a lifetime of being “sane”… When they do, they should lose their right to have a gun alos, but implementing that is the sticky point isn’t it?
Here’s where I get confused–on the one hand, liberals for the past 30-40 years have beat their chests and cried about the “rights” of the mentally ill to the point Adam Lonza couldn’t be committed and we have Sandy Hook, et al, yet at the same time, we have Mr. Wilcox and others who feel it’s perfectly fine to piss on someone’s rights in the name of “public safety.”
So which is it, libbies? Which side are you going to take, aside from whatever position ensures you get to disarm EVERYONE?
rb325th: actually, I believe the VA stated they won’t honor NY state’s new “mental health reporting” requirements in the new NY gun control laws. I don’t recall seeing anything indicating the VA had abandoned their longstanding policy of reporting vets with financial conservators as “mentally deficient” to NICS unless the vet could convince them not to do so. You know of such a change, please post a link to a source documenting same.
Regarding keeping firearms out of the hands of teh krazee, we have a way to implement that already. It’s called a “mental competency hearing” in a court of law. IMO, such deprivation by any lesser method or standard unlawfully deprives the individual of a fundamental right guaranteed by the US Constitution due to lack of substantive and procedural due process required by the 5th and 14th Amendments.
@15 – Sparky, that’s the disconnect. They want to pick and choose who gets what liberties and what rights should be available to which people.
And who gave them the right to make such decisions? The idiots who voted for them.
“Liberal” is supposed to mean “free”. It’s become corrupted to mean “complete control of thee”.
This smells bad to me, the article states the weapons are routinely destroyed.
In the case of the husband’s weapons they were taken from him without any compensation because his wife can’t be near a gun….there was no due process of any kind and he was under no suspicion of wrongdoing of any kind.
I agree that it would be like taking your car away and destroying it because your wife has a DUI. That’s done routinely with drug cases now, and I believe those cases of seizure set a terrible precedent. If you kid is caught with drugs in your home in a saleable amount in some places you are facing forfeiture of your property. This is an extension of that illegal seizure to me. There zero evidence of criminality, and it wasn’t clear from the article if the police were seizing the weapons until such time as a review of the case was made.
Based on these cases it will continue to deter people to seek any mental health treatment at all because that will hang over you like an albatross until the end of your days…at this point I wouldn’t even attend a marriage counseling session because some j3rkoff with a 4 year degree in family counseling could consider you dangerous and you could be disarmed under a law like this….
Hondo, putting one’s financial affairs into a personal trust is a form of fiduciary conservatorship.
People sometimes do it to take the business of dealing with taxes and payments off their plates because they’re too busy, or as happens in many cases, trying to find a way to avoid probate when they die. It doesn’t avoid inheritance taxes, but it does speed up the process of transferring your assets to your assigned heirs.
According to what you’ve said in @16, telling the VA that you have decided to put everything into a trust, for whatever reason, can be misconstrued as mentally deficient. Before you say “oh, no, it can’t”, oh, yes, it can, but you have to have substantial evidence to prove that someone is legally incompetent, which the VA is apparently not doing, if I understand what you said. It seems like a very arbitrary decision that may or may not be for the benefit of the vet.
There is another case this week – in New Jersey:
http://www.examiner.com/article/n-j-mother-arrested-guns-confiscated-by-attending-property-tax-dispute-forum
The cops were waiting for her when she got home from the townhall about property taxes. Even though the cops weren’t at the townhall, they arrested her and charged her with “terroristic threats” and “contempt”, over statements she said she never made. As part of that arrest, they confiscated her guns for “safekeeping”.
I know firsthand that if someone is out to get you, they can make up anything they want to have you arrested or get a restraining order against you. It may all be sorted out in court later, but the damage will have already been done.
Ex-PH2: in general, it’s needed. The vast majority of those for whom the VA appoints a financial conservator are indeed mentally incompetent, and can’t manage either their finances or day-to-day lives.
However, there are also abuses. We’ve seen evidence of that here at TAH – see http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=30420 and http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=31869
My issue is with the VA’s policy of reporting such individuals as “mentally deficient or incompetent” to NICS by default rather than after determination by competent legal authority (e.g., a judge at a mental competency hearing) that the individual is indeed deserving of being so labeled. Appointment of a conservator is not in and of itself a judicial declaration of mental incompetency, nor should it be.
Legal rights should only be abridged or denied by legal action – not by administrative fiat.
The police cannot legally take anything from you absent a warrant or an exception to the warrant requirement. What is happening is that some folks are giving consent to searches and are voluntarily relinquishing their property (e.g., guns) to the gendarme. You might not see it that way in view of several armed LEOs facing you down but when you say “Okay” or “Go ahead” or “Here you sre” that’s what’s happening. It’s hard for some people to say “No, you can’t” to the police but that’s what needs to happen.
Does no one ever ask to see a search warrant any more?
Why bother to ask for something that they rarely bother to get in the first place or is so full of holes you could walk through it?
“If you disagree with the logical legislation of Finestain and Schumer to background checks, registration, and confiscation of firearms and knives, then, you’re just plain crazy!”
While I think we can all agree that there are crazy people out there that have no business pointing the business end of any weapon at anything, where Hondo and I agree, and where the divide in America exists is with how “crazy people” can be legally denied those rights. He rightly points to the use of “insanity” to deny lesser rights, and more basic rights of breathing, by Hitler (National Socialist) and Stalin (International Socialist). With research he could probably find a parallel in the Ayatollah’s Islamist Iran.
The bottom line is that the Constitution makes clear that those that wish to remove the God-given Rights of a Citizen, has the burden of proof, in a court of law, to remove those Rights, not the Citizen, who is presumed innocent until proven guilty.
No VA bureacrat, CA shrink, nor fruitnut politician, has the right to remove the Sovereign Rights of Citizens, though each of them can be called to testify before a jury of the peers of that individual, as overseen by a Judge, in a court of law. The bar MUST remain high, to remove ANY Right from a Citizen.