Women in USMC Infantry Officer Course
Firefry12 sends us a link to the Marine Corps Times which recounts the first few days of two women who are taking the Marine Corps’ infantry officer course as an experiment.
“The women are expected to do everything that the men do,” says Marine Col. Todd Desgrosseilliers, who commands the organization responsible for basic Marine officer and infantry training. “We haven’t changed anything.”
Women have been steadily moving into many ranks previously barred to them, living at forward bases, flying combat aircraft and serving on submarine crews. Women remained barred from the infantry and other combat-arms specialties, but for the first time are being allowed to enter the Marines infantry officer training.
Allowing the women to volunteer for the course is part of an “experiment” to determine how they perform in the rigorous regimen of physical and psychological stress that Marine infantry officer candidates are put through.
The Marine Corps’ Infantry Officer Course is a course in which about 25 percent of men don’t make the cut or voluntarily drop out.
Well, if they can keep that promise that the course won’t change, I can go along with it, but I know that the screeching harpies at DoD will not be able to tolerate the failure rates which will be inevitably high.
“In the end, when all is said and done, what they should be focusing on is combat effectiveness,” said Rep. Duncan Hunter, R.-Calif., a member of the Armed Services Committee. “Does it make us better at literally killing the enemy? That’s what their job is going to be.”
Infantrymen engage in close-in fighting, sometimes “with knives, rocks and shovels,” [David Barno, a retired three-star Army general] says. “I don’t rule that out, but I think we should take a hard look at that.”
Obviously, Hunter and Barno are steeped in their chauvinistic bullshit, because what’s really important, according to the playing-field-levelers all that’s important is that women and the men around them have a greater opportunity to give their lives for their country while pursuing their gender-neutral career goals.
Marine Capt. Brian Perkins kept a close watch over a group of exhausted Marine lieutenants struggling through a series of pull-ups.
“She’s just another student to me,” Perkins said, referring to one of the women as she sweated through exercises.
As long as it stays that way, I have no problem with it. But it won’t stay that way.
Category: Marine Corps
Don’t change the standards. It should not be called an experiment. It should be called a: GO or NO GO!
If they pass and comply with the standards and prove themselves on the battlefield … GOOD TO GO!
Like I said before it is not if, but when.
Sooner or later all women will be allowed infantry MOS and rating in the Army and Marine Corps.
They’ll lower standards just like the fitness tests we have now. 1 of the women already dropped out(wonder if she was even fit enough to get in the course or she was just a random pick).
due to libs and other lefties and women who have no military experience women will be in the infantry soon, with horrible results.
I mentioned a while back that, while I served, i met two women who could hang with the men. L/Cpl McMahan(?) at the NCO Academy and 2nd Lt IForgotHerName, a visiting S-2 officer w/3rd Amtracs. McMahan kept up with the guys every time. PT, forced marches, night compass course, etc. 2nd Lt. “Nice Body” spent time operating with my Plt, in my section on my crew on C-25. When we threw a track in “Woods Canyon” she was out there in the muck helping us break track!
Unless the same standards are maintained, the down fall of the US military is underway! The PC pundits must be rolling around on the floor laughing.
I just hope the women and men are separated in terms of units and living quarters.
Sticking females in infantry units filled with kids straight out of high school and filled to their foreheads with testosterone is a recipe for disaster.
Too much drama, favoritism, showing off, etc. etc. Can ill afford that in an MOS like infantry, especially in a combat zone.
I can GUARANTEE that standards will be lowered for female candidates. If not now, then later. When I went to Basic Airborne training back in the ’80s, males had to start every day’s PT training with a minimum of eight pullups as cadenced by the Black Hats. Women did not and they also ran in formation at a much slower pace. When I asked why we were doing pullups, I was told that it was so we could support our weight on the parachute risers. I then pointed to a female candidate in the distance and asked, “Well, who is going to support HER weight?” That remark bought me some more pullups. Our military is being downgraded in the name of political correctness.
@3 She dropped out the first day.
@5 Would there be enough women interested and capable to form their own unit? That’s already been a problem for the Air Force at Lackland, they don’t have enough female MTIs for all the female flights, which was a big part of the sex assault cases there.
Forgot to add that the second woman, age 24, did pass the course.
Due to the basic design by the Chief Engineer, wimmins are NOT the physical equals of men. However, they do excel in areas other than physical prowess.
Perhaps if the Lawn Jockey in Chief is removed from office, common sense will return.
probably a random “your going to ocs or else” pick then to drop the first day.
their probably would be enough to run a company, or bigger but probably not as big as a battalion, which in course would be a dismal failure.
I am a retired Marine officer. I graduated from IOC in 1980. I was on staff at The Basic School from 1983-1985. I have two sons that are IOC graduates and combat veterans, another son going to TBS when he graduates college in May (already completed OCS), another son who has done 2 tours with a sniper team in Afghanistan, and a daughter who served as a corpsman with the Marines in Afghanistan.
The students in this class are recent Basic School graduates. They got there by surviving a brutal screening process at OCS, the Naval Academy or ROTC program. Few get the chance to participate and a large percentage fails to complete it. Basic School is another 5 months of intensive training. Again, many do no make it. The best of those TBS graduates are sent to IOC. A quarter of those do not complete the course. I am absolutely certain the women sent to attempt the course were selected based upon their being the best qualified female Lt’s available. One of the two survived the first day. Congratulations to her. Let’s see how the next 86 days go.
I, too, fear the lowering of standards. You can always lower the bar in class to make anyone pass. You cannot lower the standards of surviving in combat. The enemy has a vote and will kill you if he can. The problem is substandard platoon leaders will get many young Marines following them killed along with them. THAT is unacceptable.
I doubt that nothing they were treated the same.
Adding women changes everything, if just by their being there.
There were 109 men and 2 women.
One of the women dropped out after the first day. The other stuck it out.
27 of the men dropped out. The remaining 87 stuck it out.
Statistically, it doesn’t work for me, because half versus a fourth means nothing.
Put in more women, if you can find any who WANT to do this, and give me statistics from a bigger pool of personnel.
Ex-PH2, you know I think very highly of you, otherwise I wouldn’t have shared my gravy recipe with you. 🙂 what you suggest isn’t credible(?). What if there are 100 male candidates and five female candidates? Let’s say 10 male candidates DOR, that would mean 10% dropped, now let’s say one female candidate DOR, that would mean 20% of female candidates failed. Until you allow equal numbers of men and women attend the IOC, the numbers will never be equal. Unfortunately there aren’t enough women who could complete the course based on unyielding standards.
You do? You’re such a sweetheart. Ask Jonn to send you my e-mail, please. Where was I? Oh, yeah…
According to the infantry course stats, 25% of the male candidates drop the course within a short time. So 27 out of 109 is their normal drop statistic rate. They had only two women volunteer for the course, so if one drops and the other doesn’t, it skews the stats. Therefore, adding more women and splitting the classes would balance the statistical rate.
I agree, the numbers will never be equal, because there aren’t enough women who would volunteer for that. And I also agree that the standards for entry and completion of the infantry officers’ course should be exactly the same.