Suicide Prevention Day “stand down” in the Army
In case there are those of you who wondered how that Army-wide stand down the other day for suicide prevention went, the folks at Ranger Up’s Rhino Den sent us a link to Yeti’s post on the subject.
Also, CJ sent us a link on the same subject at A Soldier’s Perspective.
I wasn’t there, so I don’t know. I’ll defer to their opinions which are pretty critical. I’m just glad that the Army did something, but disappointed because they didn’t do something effective.
Added: Jack Murphy at SOFREP weighs in.
ADDED AGAIN: Chuck at From My Position pipes in.
Category: Military issues
[…] has a post on the Army’s “Suicide Prevention Day Stand Down” which includes critical links […]
Normally I’d be the NCO doing everything I could to help my troops…but I’m sorry, this sort of training isn’t going to really do a damn bit of good.
As a civilian cop, I was given training on how to deal with mental illness– like a suicide.
Here’s what I’d suggest the Army do if they really want to reduce this problem:
1.) Train troops in each platoon in basic mental illness stuff- like a CLS. Make the training real and easy to understand. If a soldier assigned the training doesn’t get it, the fail…then send somebody else.
2.) After basic traning and AIT, treat all soldiers with respect and diginty- not like a piece of shit. Get rid of shitty NCOs and Officers who abuse troops.
3.) Do better screening BEFORE a citizen joins the service. How many of todays suicides are by folks who’ve never even deployed?
4.) etc. etc.
You can’t have some commander who’s been trained to break things and hurt people suddenly put in charge of trying to fix shit like this. It needs an expert.
Well said CI dude.
@2.
“3.) Do better screening BEFORE a citizen joins the service. How many of todays suicides are by folks who’ve never even deployed?”
The answer, believe it or not, is more than half!
There was a time in my military career I really contemplated suicide. But because of the negative attention seeking help was getting I refused to tell anyone. Also, if someone reports another soldier for being suicidal, lets not treat that soldier like shit either. When one of my joes made mention that he thought I might be thinking of hurting myself I got treated like shit. Since I owned firearms I was subjected to the third degree, threats of moving me back into the barracks away from my family, I was forced to report in to the Behavioral Health Clinic once a week to make sure I hadnt done anything, and I was thrown on the post blotter because of the amount of firearms I owned and the report that I might be suicidal. Hell the LCSW told my command that since I owned 40 firearms I was stockpiling guns and ammo and was a threat to others. At the time of the report, I wasnt. I had been but had taken the steps to get some help at the urging of one of my soldiers who recognized the signs that something was wrong.
You really want to fix this suicide problem, make sure joe understands that there is help out there and that you dont hold it against the joe for seeking help. No amount of briefings and mandatory power point slide training is going to make this go away. We have to look out for each other and stop the stupid shit.
I remember sitting through suicide briefs in Iraq in 2009. The way the army handled it then, was herd us into a hot tent around 2100 after a full day of running missions (mind you this was the time we used to e mail home and and catch up with correspondence, or unwind at the gym) and brow beat us while yelling at random people who had been up for 16 hours working. Several soldiers claimed if you didn’t feel like killing yourself when you walked in the tent, you wanted to after that 2+ hours of death by powerpoint. All in all it was pitiful
Unfortunately, the culture within the Marine Corps isn’t much better. What – with mandatory training where we all fill the auditorium and listen to people drone on about something we all know is very real, but realize we’re only there because of a knee jerk reaction to something that has already happened? The statistics they explain are all very interesting (and tragic), but it’s time the whole military establishment take a good look at how it does things in addressing quality of life (particularly suicide awareness and prevention). Checking the box just doesn’t work.
I attended a suicide prevention brief given by our squadron’s flight surgeon a few years back. He chose R.E.M.’s “Everybody Hurts” as the theme music. By the time the song was finished, all in attendance were having suicidal thoughts.
There are so many mixed signals going out concerning anyone with real issues about anything that it is no wonder that those who need it most do not seek help.
There simply are no easy formulas. The conflicts between mission interests and individual needs are nearly impossible to resolve with satisfaction.
I would suggest that if the Pentagon is serious about addressing those parts that they alone can resolve that they first find a clear message. Not just about suicide but about everything.
Stupid stuff like roe’s which make no sense, not knowing if your unit will exist next year, being deployed with conflicting declarations as to why, failing to honor promises made, and many more can only be settled by those well above any paygrade any of us peons had.
Sure, there will always be stuff about which we will grumble and complain. It’s part of the charm of being in the military. But crap that gets people killed for no good reason is beyond justification. Training accidents happen, stuff happens which no battle plan can completely anticipate, and people will die. We all know and accept some degree of that.
Beyond the circumstances that the military itself can correct by cleaning up it’s own act at the highest levels, it is up to the rest of society to fix those things which lead to a general hopelessness and feelings of helplessness that result in healthy humans ending their own lives.
I know nothing about this but I will opine anyway. Mandatory Training etc. never did anything but piss off everyone involved. In my era it was Pay Day procedures to have us LT’s do stimulating presentations on what ever the issue of the day was when all the Troopers wanted to do was go to Fayetteville and spend their jump pay…. They were respectful but were looking at their watches. In my era, it was the Platoon Sergeants who would tell the LT that Private Smedlap was acting hinky and needed some eyes on. In those days, NCO’s were the eyes and ears. They had a pulse of the unit and, in my day, were not reticent about telling the LT/Capt. I hope they still are. The old “Chain of Command” concept has always been effective, IMHO.
[…] needs help… the guy sitting in the room who won’t reach out in an environment like this.” This Ain’t Hell: “I wasn’t there, so I don’t know. I’ll defer to their opinions which are pretty […]
Ya know, I cannot even begin to imagine the pain and despair these GIs are feeling that would lead them to think suicide was the only option.
I’m with SJ, as a section leader it was my responsibility to keep an eye on my Marines. If one of them seemed out of sorts I didn’t give it a thought to ask them how they were and they didn’t give it a thought to tell me if they were having problems. There wasn’t much I could do for them but listen or send them to see the Padre. Even in the ’70s the stigma of going to see the “head shrinker” was alive and well.
Having lost my first born when he was just 17 I know the pain the families are feeling. My heart goes out to them.
A guy on my first boat committed suicide on watch one dark Sunday morning around 0200 after he’d been told he was going to mast (for the third time) and likely beting tossed off the boat.
XO (at 0300 after arriving:) “Hose this mess off into the harbor before sunrise!”
CO (at 0800 that morning): “Good thing we won’t have to paint over it.”
Underway for major inspection the next day. Suicide prevention training after memorial service which consisted of a happy clown/sad clown video made by people who never likely worked more than 40 hours a week or spent any time underway on anything other than a Carnival cruise ship. As @6 said, if you weren’t contemplating suicide before, you were after–either that or you were so pissed off at the chain of command that 1–didn’t see this shit coming, 2–kept this kid long past where he should have been sent somewhere else.
We eat our own, but damned if there aren’t times where the shit goes too far, both in pushing people and command “suck it up” attitudes.
Made the call for my people to skip the large “death by power point” the HHBn scheduled and had a roundtable with the section where we talked about some of the recent cases that had happened in our formation. Nothing formal, just a chance for people to exchange ideas and vent a little. Some of the findings from my Soldiers/NCOs: 1. Army gives us too much shit to think about- cards, pamphlets, “helpful” acronyms, etc.- fill up our ACU sleeve pockets with that crap and it’s all inspectable, yet we don’t have the time/inclination to read it. I guess it’s there if we need it, but the Joes resent being told to carry all that ash and trash around like it makes a difference. 2. Back in the 90’s before we became a digital/paperless Army, you had to sit through classes given by actual instructors…now, we’re getting death by 1,000 papercuts with all the good idea fairy videos and modules that they make us go on AKO to watch and then take crappily-worded tests that were jammed through but don’t actually test you on things that were covered in the video. Someone’s OER/NCOER bullet- I get all that, but we have enough to do- once again, checking the block for “training” is the answer and with computers the Army can throw a shitpot of it at you these days without having to pay/coordinate people to actually go somewhere and give it. 3. My folks said that doing a stand-down once a year or making a big deal of it comes off as contrived. If leaders really gave a shit, they’d talk about it semi-regularly and in an informal setting so that everything doesn’t come to a screeching halt just so units and formations can send a 100% block check to Big Army. 4. We had a division run that started at 0630– that meant units were having their people in at 0500 so they could form up and be over at Div HQ for CG remarks. That meant most guys who live off-post were up at 0400 so they could… Read more »
NHSparky: I’ve seen enough of your posts to “know” that you aren’t exaggerating. What a disgrace what you describe is. I cannot fathom that.
Ptolemy in Egypt: awesome post. Print some cards and everything will be STRAC. Oh, and PT at daybreak for no damned reason. The sad thing is that this BS went on in the 60’s and, apparently, still happens.
I’ll say again, as a LT, my Platoon Sergeants had a pulse on the Troopers and they were not bashful about telling me or the First Shirt what was going on. Any officer that did not listen to these NCO’s should be court martialed.
I tell ya what, SJ–the person I felt worst for in that whole situation (besides the kid himself) was the Chief who was tasked to escort his body home–not HIS Chief, mind you–just a warm, live “E-7 or above” body they could spare for a couple of days.
He started breaking up when telling us how he tried to explain to the parents of this 19-year old kid why he was gone. Not a job I would wish on my worst enemy.
And appreciate the vote of confidence. I might get a bit colorful, but life’s too short to have to bullshit through. As the old man imparted on me early and often: 1–tell the truth, life’s already complicated enough, and 2–you might get in trouble for what you’ve done, but it won’t be one-tenth the shitpile you’ll land in if you get caught lying.
YMMV, but I doubt it.
My first official act as a brand new platoon leader was to attend the funeral of a Catholic soldier who got stoned on pot and killed himself with a shotgun. It sucked badly; i found out there were indicators well before. I made it my mission as a leader through my career to ensure I never had to do that again. I discovered SJ has it nailed. If leaders at each level know their troops, they know what to look for and who to get them to.
I enlisted in 1980, retired in 2004, and still work for the Army, and thus “get” to attend all the recurring training–SHARP, suicide, OPSEC/SAEDA, drunk driving, Consideration of Others, and now Trafficing in Persons. I’m sure I missed some, but I’m also sure some twatwaffle will remind me when something expires.
The thing these so-called training sessions have in common? People despise them. They are NOT leadership, they are block-checking that some fuzznuts developed or, more likely, contracted for.
I always disliked the annual training and never saw the value of it, but after attending ASIST and SHARP certification training I feel much better prepared to intervene as a leader. The Army haas taken steps to heighten awareness and prepare Soldiers by increasing resiliency training.
For the stand down day all my company did was complete a risk assessment questionnaire. It’s gotta be effective, though. I mean, you are adjudged to be medium risk if you have firearms but no issues, and your company should be notified. Quite .effective that, assuming all gun owners are at risk.
Other comments pretty well summed it up. Now on the Army Guard side, this month everyone will have a mandatory 8 hour fun filled day of powerpoints, lectures, touchy feely video crap, and group hugs. I would rather go back thru Escape and Evasion Training, it would be more fun.
The Army Guard takes something that would or could be done logically in 1/2 to 1 hour, checking all the blocks and drags it out for as long as possible. After the first hour of mandatory crap like this troops are falling asleep, sitting in a daze, or screwing off. It becomes white noise, or the sound of Charlie Browns teacher, Wa wa wa wa.
Couple of months ago we had mandatory SHARP training for sexual assault, etc. Could have been done in 30-45 minutes. Instead had a ate-up butter bar read every line on every script, every power point slide for over 3 hours. Then we had to start our scheduled training, maintenance and usual required tasks.
These kind of briefings are counterproductive, demoralizing and take away from valuable training time. Most troops have heard this crap dozens of times by now anyway.
In addition to mandatory CLS classes on top of our other assigned tasks, now this stand down crap is added, pushing back and taking away from stuff that may save a life or maintaining weapons and equipment that will save a life.
Frustrating. And there are still plenty of shit bird NCOs and officers, especially non-deployers, POGs and REMFs, that mock, ridicule, demean and disregard troops with serious issues. Seen it many times.
Message to personnel, there is help out there-get it when you need it and cover your six, it is still going to cost you in the long run.
Sorry for the long rant, just expressing what I can’t at training.
Got that to look forward to next drill. Our first day of training (1600-2400 on a Friday night) is the suicide prevention stand down. They chose to do it all in one swing at the front end, followed by a 0700 APFT the next morning. I’m sure that will go well.
This is the first time I’ve told anyone about this. I hit rock bottom in my past. In Afghanistan one time (Jan ’08), my personal life was so messed up, it affected my professional life, and I was getting beat from both ends. One night, I had my M4 under my chin and my finger was on the trigger. I was calm, and had no doubt or fear in my mind that that was what I wanted to do. I don’t know how, and I don’t know why, but my screensaver popped on right at that moment, and it was a picture of my daughter. In that second, I realized, even though everyone else would either not miss me or would get over me offing myself, she was innocent in all that was going on and not only did my daughter truly love me, I would only be hurting her and potentially ruining her life. That picture saved my life. I broke drown and didn’t cry, but I prayed. Something I hadn’t done in years. Not a lip service prayer, but a completely laying out my life and breaking down where I screwed up and asking for the strength and wisdom to move on and grow from everything prayer. That gave me a mental kick in the ass and I took one small step at a time to try and fix things. Instead of looking at everything that was going wrong, I focused on what was going well and tried to prioritize the wrong and fix them, but not all at once. I took everything one day at a time and slowly, things got better. I learned what is really important, and what can wait another day. I tell my Soldiers that they can feel free to talk to me about anything at any time. I tell them there’s no need to be embarassed because I either have seen someone do it before or I’ve done it myself and I won’t pass judgment, but I can listen and offer advice. Which might be all someone needs. I’m still far from… Read more »
@21 Scubasteve: You hit the nail on the head. You were at a moment in your life where you had to re-evaluate things and put them into a new perspective. I’ve read some posts where folks state that the key ingredient is getting to know their people and know what makes them tick… keeping a watchful eye… and understanding most of the behavioral nuances we all have to identify if there’s anything about them that just isn’t right. That, coupled with having the intestinal fortitude to get involved and report things up the CoC can alleviate a lot of problems. I’m no head shrinker, but I like to think I knew my folks well enough to know when something isn’t right. Don’t be ashamed of yourself. None of us are perfect and each is vulnerable at one time or another. Power Point just can’t fix all the world’s problems. All in all, thank God for screensavers – and am glad you’re still with us even though we’ve never personally met.
Simply put, this kinda crap is worse than stupid. It’s potentially harmful.
Shrinks go to school for years to try to learn how to identify potential suicides (among other things) and how to help them. A couple of hours of PowerPoint spewing forth statistics isn’t going to do the trick.
Yet command can say their people are trained in suicide awareness and prevention. This gives others (outsiders, insiders know how abjectly abysmal their training really was) a false sense of security.
Shit, it’d be better if they did nothing, rather than to fool themselves and others that they did all they could, when in reality they treated the situation with less focus and effort than they used to teach us the cyclic rate of fire of a M16-A2.