Women in Sapper School
The Washington Times‘ Kristina Wong writes about two women and their time in Sapper School at Fort Leonard Wood, MO;
Capt. Armstrong and Capt. Stephanie Godman were determined to become No. 48 and No. 49.
Of 36 engineers taking the course in June, three had dropped out, including one woman.
At 5-foot-4 and 140 pounds, Capt. Armstrong, 26, is a West Point graduate who had considered becoming an orthopedic surgeon before falling in love with the idea of being an Army engineer. She wanted to attend sapper school to prove to herself that she could do exactly what the guys do, and prove that she is a capable leader.
The article says that men who have been to both ranger and Sapper Schools say that Sapper School is tougher. Yeah, academically, maybe, but I get the impression of the way that is used in the article, it’s supposed to convince the Army to send women to Ranger School. I say send them to Ranger School and don’t change the standard and the watch the hippies get all up in arms about the drop out rate and make “GI Jane” comparisons.
The article talks about “2 grueling weeks” in the field. Yeah, that’s almost like Ranger School.
Category: Military issues
“Many who have completed both sapper and ranger training say sapper is tougher because of the course’s compressed time frame, number of subjects studied and grueling schedule.”
I’m calling BULLSHIT on the aforementioned paragraph.
The first time she took the course, Capt. Godman’s back began spasming during a 12-mile march with full rucksacks easily weighing more than 70 pounds, more than half of her body weight.
“The FIRST TIME she took the course.” 12 mile ruck with 70 lbs? There are more than one reasons why it is called the CRAPPER tab.
On a not unrelated note…
http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal
Written by a female Marine combat engineer officer with two combat tours, questioning the rationale behind allowing women into the infantry.
“In the end, my main concern is not whether women are capable of conducting combat operations, as we have already proven that we can hold our own in some very difficult combat situations; instead, my main concern is a question of longevity. Can women endure the physical and physiological rigors of sustained combat operations, and are we willing to accept the attrition and medical issues that go along with integration?”
The whole thing is worth a read.
@andy I read the article and it’s great. What got me was the fact living like a grunt made her sterile. What a shame
I refer all who say Sapper is harder to the Ranger School Promo 3 video at the 1:20 minute mark.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC301ZbdEyk&feature=plcp
It’s cute how female soldiers keep repeating that they are just as tough as the males and can do anything that they can do. Yeah, right. Unfortunately, the Army is enabling their chirpings and edging towards including them in the Combat Arms, all in the name of political correctness.
As an original 12 Bravo, it used to annoy me that women were allowed to go to Sapper school and earn the tab. When I re-enlisted I got in touch with one of the guys I went through engineer school with who had stayed in gone active duty and spent two years as an instructor at Sapper school.
As of 2007, anyway, females were held to the same standard the men were. They had to pass the PT test in the male 17-21 year old bracket (though they were scored in their bracket which did annoy him because PT scores counted towards honor grad and distingused honor grade). He told me at the time that he’d never seen a female fail out on the PT test or fail H&W where a lot of men did. He put it like this “The women knew they had to be in shape, the men thought they could fake it”.
They were held to the same academic stanards, and were not given seperate living conditions when in the field. They also had to complete the 12 mile ruck with the same weight and in the same time as the men (under three hours), which is a bitch of a ruck no matter how you look at it, or what gender you are. They had to carry the Zodiacs and complete the mountain phase of the training and on and on.
So unless things have changed (and they may have this is the Army we are talking about), Sapper school at least is a school that didn’t change the standards for males and females. Which is all that I ask for (hell I want them to have the same scoring for PT as the males do).
This would all mean so much to me if the physical challenges of Sapper school were any more exacting than say, the “10 Toughest Days in the Army” of Air Assault school, from which women were graduating even almost 20 years ago when I went.
I’m of a mixed bag on the whole “women as infantry” thing. My daughter, when she grows up, wants to move to Israel so she can be in the infantry, just like Daddy, in their mixed gender infantry battalion. I’m kind of cool with that, but she knows that I will hold her accountable to the 17-21 male PT standard circa 1993-1994. Of course, over there, segmenting them in their own battalion with standards invisible to the rest of the force is very helpful. They won’t do it that way here. It’s always all or nothing with our pols.
I did all of my time in the Infantry. While alot of that time sucked, it paled in comparison to having to deal with all of this BS.
Ive seen women make it through the manchu march in korea where plenty of men, infantry and cav scouts included, fell out and rode the truck the rest of the way. That being said, women like that, in what I’ve seen of the Army, are few and far between. But, i think if women can prove themselves on some obstacles (such as manchu mile), then they probably deserve a chance at some of the tougher schoools. I’m not saying they’re gonna jump in there and get it done with no problems, but in some cases (not, in my opinion, ranger shcool), they should at least be given the chance. I think a lot of you would agree that it is already pretty disappointing when you wait for a slot to a school and prepare for it, and when you get there, there are a fair amount of jackasses,(who are men), that don’t deserve to be there, much less pass.
What’s funny is everybody thinks women should be given a chance but we all know that the army will lower the standard to be in the grunts and go to Ranger School. It’s a fact and there’s no denying. Are there women who have been to combat? yes. Are there women who can pass hard schools. Yes. Do I want to allow them the opportunity to be able to join combat arms? Fuck no. Because at the end of the day standards will be lowered and women will be treated differently. 99 times out of a 100 those women will not be able to hack it. Let’s see some 5’3 110 pound woman do DNA on the 25 all fucking day. Or see her hump a claymore, 60mm mortars, water, extra 7.62 ammo, her own load out, body armor etc on a 24 hour patrol in Kunar Province Afghanistan. It’s breaks off a lot of grunts and I don’t want to deal with a woman in my rifle platoon. The grunts and combat arms are hard drinkers, womanizers, covered in tats, and are here to kill the enemies of the United States. It’s not some social experiment.
@9…Infantry and cav scouts falling out on the Manchu Mile???? Damn…
#2…that was a great read, thanks!
No. 10 == Thanks for the reality and simple truth .
#2: Excellent link. Thanks for sharing. I believe that many men are genetically and culturally predisposed to be chivalrous toward women. If in the course of a TIC one male and one female are wounded, first responders in that element might feel compelled to render aid to the female first, irrespective of either casualty’s rank, mission-essential skill sets, or triage assessments. As socially unacceptable as this may be to say, I believe that men are drawn to aid and assist women; to be protectors and defenders. We have been for thousands of years. It’s hard-wired. I would prefer the gender dynamics not add to the fog of war. I am a graduate of both the Sapper Leader Course and Ranger School. Knocked them both out back-to-back in 2005. They are both terribly challenging tabs to earn, but for different reasons. In my experience, Sapper school had a higher amplitude: fewer meals, less sleep, and longer movements. All of the cadre are twin-tabbed, and I think they ratchet it up because they know they only have a shorter period of time with students. Furthermore, the academics were crushing. Students had to decide: after a punishing twenty hour day, do I get some much-needed rest or stay up and study for tomorrow’s [whatever] exam? The standards during patrols were unforgiving, as well. I saw some good dudes fail. All that said, it’s only 28 days and I always felt like I could see the light at the end of the tunnel. Ranger School on the other hand, often made me wish I was anywhere else, and gave the impression that the pain would never end. It was a brutal, never-ending gut check that I hated daily. Nevertheless, it was significantly less challenging in both garrison training and patrols. And even if you did poorly, you always knew you could recycle for another try. There’s comfort in that. Personally, and again in my experience, I see the Sapper Leader Course as providing more valuable training, and Ranger School teaching me what it means to persevere through supreme adversity. Together, they’re very powerful. Final… Read more »
#2: Excellent link. Thanks for sharing. I believe that many men are genetically and culturally predisposed to be chivalrous toward women. If in the course of a TIC one male and one female are wounded, first responders in that element might feel compelled to render aid to the female first, irrespective of either casualty’s rank, mission-essential skill sets, or triage assessments. As socially unacceptable as this may be to say, I believe that men are drawn to aid and assist women; to be protectors and defenders. We have been for thousands of years. It’s hard-wired. I would prefer the gender dynamics not add to the fog of war. I am a graduate of both the Sapper Leader Course and Ranger School. Knocked them both out back-to-back in 2005. They are both terribly challenging tabs to earn, but for different reasons. In my experience, Sapper school had a higher amplitude: fewer meals, less sleep, and longer movements. All of the cadre are twin-tabbed, and I think they ratchet it up because they know they only have a shorter period of time with students. Furthermore, the academics were crushing. Students had to decide: after a punishing twenty hour day, do I get some much-needed rest or stay up and study for tomorrow’s [whatever] exam? The standards during patrols were unforgiving, as well. I saw some good dudes fail. All that said, it’s only 28 days and I always felt like I could see the light at the end of the tunnel. Ranger School on the other hand, often made me wish I was anywhere else, and gave the impression that the pain would never end. It was a brutal, never-ending gut check that I hated daily. Nevertheless, it was significantly less challenging in both garrison training and patrols. And even if you did poorly, you always knew you could recycle for another try. There’s comfort in that. Personally, and again in my experience, I see the Sapper Leader Course as providing more valuable training, and Ranger School teaching me what it means to persevere through supreme adversity. Together, they’re very powerful. Final… Read more »
BUD/S and SFAS, make way for the sisterhood – some POTUS and SECDEF in near future will see to it…as an experiment of course.
I don’t have a lot to add to this except that I have a buddy that was in this class and according to him at least one of the women was given extra time to complete a certain event along with women being given leadership positions on easy, gimme patrols.
FWIW
My only issue with women being fully combat arms MOS (not if, but when) is what to do with them in units.
Are they going to be fully co-ed with other males in the same platoons, etc.?
That is going to be one nasty cluster f**k. Throw in women along with 19, 20 year old guys full of testosterone, and we all know what happens. Guys losing their professionalism as they try to show off to the girls, hit on them, flirt with them, petty jealousies and in fighting among guys over girls, favoritism, sexual harassment, the list goes on and on and on. Not the greatest of things for unit cohesiveness on the battlefield.
First off this is not my buddy said or I heard this and that about the females or Sapper school this comment is from me SSG Hughes a guy that was at this course and I’ll testify that ive shared at time a few of your views in regards to females performing at the level of men but after seeing CPT Godman an CPT Armstrong go through the things that every man did and out preform half of them I’d damn sure be at ease to know they had my back no matter the task in combat. Wether it’s to climb any mountain range in Afghanistan with any amount of gear or trading bullet for bullet with any amount of insurgents. Truly beasts. I commend them and other females that push themselves to accomplish the same task as their male counterparts.
Thanks Sapper! Hope you’re doing well!
Bullshit.
Any you know it.
Correction.
And you know it.
Have fun carring them up the hill after infection(s) from not washing after two weeks.
Glad I’m SF
Women don’t get infections after two weeks. There are countries where women never bathe. Good try 21 but thats a myth.
Women that come through Sapper school are there for a reason. They have proven they can hang and run with the men. The funny thing is the ones that do come beast it out even better then most males. So if you feel that they don’t belong why don’t you come and have your heart broken when you get a “nogo” because you suck.
To all the people that are saying women in combat and going through the tough schools are not good enough or are not deserving need to shut up. I spent 3 years as a Sapper Instructor and have seen females come and dominate and destroy the males. I have watched grown men combat proven get blown away by females. I have seen Rangers and SF and Marines come and quit because ” too hard”. Having been through both Sapper and Ranger school, both schools are hard and not everyone makes it but the ones that do are part of a brotherhood that has a lifelong bond. So quit with the BS and be happy for your fellow Sapper and Rangers regardless of gender because if you tab regardless of gender it means your one BAMF. If you want to talk shit because you don’t agree then come to Sapper school and give it a run. But don’t be a pissy bitch when you get that big fat NO-GO. RLTW/SLTW
@24 and 25. Zzzzzzzzzzzz.
@25.
Maybe you should be in the IN.
Whatever.
Your post is EXTREMELY biased.
Were you acting within ethical boundaries?
“I have watched grown men combat proven get blown away by females.” Blue on blue?
I had to ‘carry the load’ for enough puss men during my career that I’m really not inclined to be gender biased.
The standard is what’s important, not the gender. Any claims to the contrary are childish.
If a candidate can pass the most rigorous standard that applies, that should be the end of the discussion.
I’m not sure what the issue is here, but according to the Army’s own PR article (link below), the Sapper Leader course is 28 days, not two weeks.
http://www.army.mil/article/80907
Women are getting injured and killed in Afghanistan, just as the men are.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/11/14373249-thousands-of-female-veterans-are-coming-home-is-the-us-ready-to-welcome-them?lite
So what was the issue again?
I am not Army so this is my take.
NEVER LOWER STANDARDS. If a female passes the course … good on her. Now battlefield testing … if she passes that test … better on her. And if she has a great rack as well .. that is friggin’ outstanding!
@ 25 You said, “I have watched grown men combat proven get blown away by females.”
Listen, I am not Army but I know a bit about Sappers, and just don’t know why as an instructor you would allow a female to do that to a man.
Don’t you have better things to do with your explosives?
Master Chief, I think that @25 was trying to say that the women in the course outperformed the men, but not articulating it very well.
Personally, I would be disinclined to use explosives on a guy, unless he annoyed the living daylights out of me.
Oh .. is that what he was trying to say? Wink Wink!
Sure. 🙂
@31.
On target.
The standard is the standard. Period.
The new PC Army is changing the benchmarks….
Sad but true.
@29.
I am sure you have.
Women don’t belong. The Army lowered the standards for jump school when they let Women in. Now everybody has low standards. The Women dont have to do the 6 pullups. They hang from the bar for thirty seconds and they pass. Men get sent home because they can only do 5 pullups. I dont believe you who say you are Sapper instructors and the Women do so much better. This is false. Why dont we mix men and women in pro sports?? Because Women will not be able to compete unless there is a lower standard for them. You so-called instructors are trying to make yourself feel better about yourself and all PC and what not by saying the Women do so good. The Army is not a place for social experiments. Also, just because a Women gets shot at doesnt mean she has proven herself in combat. I could go on and on but you pouges just wouldnt undertand
every one knows standards were lowered for females thats a fact
100% Correct. Been to both schools and tabbed at both, standards were lowered for females at Sapper.
Infantry, Rangers, SF don’t hold a candle to Divers. Greater than 90% wash out rate at dive school. That’s the only REAL school. Some people seem to have a problem staying calm while getting beaten up underwater, without an oxygen source. It’s okay, we’ll revive you.
Ive been to both sapper and ranger within the past 2 years and people trying to say that either school is harder is just dumb. I have both tabs and can say that they both sucked the same ammount. ranger is longer but sapper is more intense. If this does help, 2 rangers tabs from 2nd ranger bat failed in my sapper class but no sapper tabs failed in my ranger class… as a matter of fact, we were first time gos
I’m a female that graduated the Sapper Leader Course and Airborne School last year, and I thought I’d put a female perspective in. I think military schools and women in combat arms are like apples and oranges. Toughness of schools: yeah Sapper School was tough but not impossible. I definitely wasn’t the strongest, but I wasn’t the weakest either. It was a great course, learned a lot, became a better leader for it. Airborne School was a bit of a joke physically, and I was disappointed they no longer integrate pull ups. They are working to make 6 pull ups a requirement for Sapper School, which they should. I can do 6+ pullups, carry a heavy ass ruck in the field, but I had to work at it. I’m 5’4″ and 125lbs. I trained my ass off before going to the course, rucking 80+lbs twice a week to get used to the weight, running crazy distances with body armor to cut down my times, and practice pull ups and lifting heavy things over my head. That’s what females have to do if they want just “keep up.” Our PT standards are a joke. I’ve seen some fat, slobby females get 300s and have to get taped after. That should be an indicator they need to step it up. 15:34 to max my run are you serious? How is it guys in most units have to nearly kill themselves to get a 13:00 and I can not run for two months and still max my run? Ours should at least be a 14:00 to max. 50 pushups is the highest max? If women want to keep up with the men then it should at least be 60. They should definitely add pullups on the PT test and maybe a rope climb. Of course, the Army isn’t “resourced” for that so they can’t implement it everywhere. So, could I do Ranger School? Probably not. I Maybe if I added on 30lbs more of muscle, and double my rucking effort up to 100+lb ruck, and did nothing but heavy lifting and deep squats.… Read more »
“I’ve seen some fat, slobby females get 300s and have to get taped after.” Yeah, like my BN S2 and S4. It’s positively disgusting. Want equality? Fix that first.
It only time before a woman goes to Ranger and makes it. The only reason it hasn’t happend is that Big Army wont call it a leaders course. Big deal, if a course gets women leaders better experiance to lead and fight in combat then quit giving them bullshit and let them go….to include Special Forces. I have been to both and while I personally feel that Ranger is tougher they are both great schools and should be availible to women. I now work in Law Enforcement and I can tell you a hot little 18 year old female can kill you just as fast as a Delta Force operator you just wont see it coming because your too busy staring at her body to see it coming. Like it or now women are in combat,… the least you can do it let them have the respect of serving and let them learn like you before going into harms way!