Time: The Bergdahl negotiations
Time, Inc. sent us a link to their recent article which takes a look at the negotiations with the Taliban for the release of SGT Bowe Bergdahl, the Taliban’s sole living American soldier POW. They take a look at the home life of his family in Idaho while they wait and lobby the Obama Administration for their son’s release.
I know there is speculation in the military community about the circumstances surrounding his capture – I’ve heard it all – but until we get this American Army sergeant home to his family and in the arms of his countrymen, we should lay that speculation aside for the moment.
According to his captors, Bergdahl didn’t make their lives easy. The Haqqanis says that he escaped once;
Three days after his escape, the Haqqanis recaptured Bergdahl in the mountains. “It was a brief escape, and he was easily recovered from the same area. He was not familiar with the area and route, and then the whole area was controlled by Taliban, and therefore escaping was not possible,” one of the network’s commanders says. The Haqqanis were angry. Bergdahl had exploited the honesty, poverty and illiteracy of the men assigned to guard him, promising them that he would take them to the U.S. if they helped him escape, the militant leader says. Bergdahl was physically punished for misguiding the fighters who had tried to escape with him, says the commander, adding that the fighters had been “paralyzed,” his grim euphemism for execution.
Anyway, Time interviewed both the Taliban and the State Department negotiators and, funny, but it’s like they’re not even talking about the same negotiations;
On March 15, the Taliban suspended the talks, citing the Americans’ “unacceptable” conditions. Taliban members say the U.S. tacked on a last-minute stipulation that the Taliban announce a cease-fire and lay down arms first. “We told them we are willing to announce a cease-fire, but you should start pulling out all foreign forces and tell the world that invading Afghanistan and removing the Taliban from power was your mistake, but they did not agree,” a Taliban leader says. “Thus the talks failed.” Not surprisingly, the U.S. sees it differently. “The Taliban refused to agree to the terms we require for a transfer, so they walked away,” the Obama Administration official says. “This proposal … is still very much on the table.”
And the article ends;
The White House waits for a signal from the Taliban that talks can begin again, and the town of Hailey for news of a miraculous release. And somewhere in the mountains near the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, a young man waits to go home to his family.
Whatever the circumstances of his capture were, the fact that he tried to escape proves to me that he’s still trying to fulfill his obligations under the Code of Conduct. And it’s pretty funny that he convinced some halfwitted Gomers to help him escape. I guess that won’t work again.
The article is behind a pay wall, but, well, you know how you can get the whole thing, right?
Category: Terror War
“Bergdahl was physically punished…”
Let’s see…in plain-speak, that means they beat the shit out of him, right?
I gotta quit reading articles like this. My blood pressure meds don’t stand a chance, otherwise.
I still think of him all the time, and hope that he gets released soon. The fact that they still kept him alive all these years gives me hope.
Only a fool would envision a ‘Rambo’ scenario where he defiantly kills everyone and makes his way back to friendlies (though he did try to escape).
I can only imagine his mindset. We know all too well how these savages treat their hostages.
Guess you and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum on this one. And since you told me I can’t say what I want to about him here I won’t.
Still love you. BIG TIME
OK, I guess I do have one tiny little question…how is one captured when they (I mean just hypothetically speaking) abandon their post and walk off of their FOB? Just hypothetical.
Could we please just get him home first?
Where is Obama and his SEAL raid!? I wanna hear in the next address… “Yes, I decided to take the risk for realsies this time, and HALO drop in with SF troops behind enemy lines to rescue this sergeant, and save this man that Bush failed.”
Once he realizes he isn’t gay and has nothing to do with Trayvon Martin though, all bets are off, we might even return him. He’s not a priority in the pandering party just yet. Such a shame that the Campaigner in Chief isn’t all over this yet. If he doesn’t buy a vote (and military votes from overseas will be denied) it’s irrelevant. But don’t worry vets, the celebrities have your six.
Granted, there are questions surrounding his situation; however, the answers to those questions should be determined by the American military justice system. Not by enemy combatants with a long knife and a video camera.
Rest assured on one point….there are still active efforts to gain his release, and I don’t mean by negotiations.
Get him home then we can deal with his punishment. Just because he really screwed up doesn’t mean he deserves to die in some shithole at the hands of these douches.
I think Bergdahl has been dealt enough “punishment”, assuming he did anything inappropriate to begin with.
Even if he did get captured after going AWOL I would say he’s more than made his penance thanks to his ordeal as a POW.
@Former3co It took us years to track down Bin Laden who was hiding in a residential area. So good luck tracking down the lawless mountain range hole in the wall they’ve likely stashed him at.
CI is right, I am certain there are tons of resources being devoted to a guy who went AWOL and what else could be done with those resources? How are we to get him home? Why should we invest the time, effort, lives and resources to do so? In the United States the fastest way to become a hero is to surrender. The soldiers rolled up in Kosovo never fired a shot (they said their weapons malfunctioned) and all were awarded Army Comms, POW Medals and, until vets went bat shit crazy about it, Purple Hearts. They had crossed the border on a beer run by the way. I was on the USS Nassau assigned as a platoon sergeant to the helicopter company and I can tell you all sorts of soptions were being looked at to recover these four shitheads. All of those options involved risking the lives of better men and to what purpose? Who would have even remembered those of us killed? But the four POWs would have been hailed as returning war heroes. How about the guy who landed his aircraft in China? Entire crew got MSMs and he got a DFC and an MSM! Heroes take actions that are contrary to and not in their own best interests. Naval aviators who came through EWTGLANT at the time all joked that it was never an option to land in Communist China if you had any sort of mid air incident with your aircraft. Jessica Lynch? Shoshanna… heroes for being captured. Shosho hid under a truck and Jessica was knocked out when Lori panicked and rammed into a wrecker. Anybody remember the names of the Marines killed in the mission to recover survivors from Jessica’s unit? I knew one of them very well and I deeply resent that his life was wasted to recover soldiers like Shosho who never fired a shot in their own defense. How about the army sergeant who won a Silver Star that day? Anybody remember him? No and why would we; he fought and was executed for having done so. But we… Read more »
@JACK how do you know he went AWOL? Even the UCMJ adheres to the ‘innocent until proven guilty’ as a cornerstone of it’s laws. Until an official investigation declares it, he didn’t go AWOL.
@JACK and what happened to no man left behind? You might as well argue that the bodies of our dead be left if we can’t get to them right away since it’s taking up valuable time, personnel, and equipment on someone who will contribute nothing to the mission.
@And just to be clear you’re essentially calling John McCain a coward? George H.W. Bush would have certainly been captured by the Japanese had he not been intercepted in the water after he had to ditch his aircraft. Is he a coward since it was through no act of his own that he was rescued? Michael Durant?
And how are Jessica Lynch and Shoshanna Jackson not heroes? They didn’t pull a Rambo to be sure, but they did sustain crippling injuries and were POWs. The only thing they got out of the ordeal was unwanted notoriety. Until you’ve been in a situation in which you faced imminent capture I don’t thing you can truly second guess them for not shooting themselves before the Iraqis got to them.
@Ann – I have to agree with Jack for the most part; simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time doesn’t make anyone a hero. It merely cheapens the term. If Jessica Lynch is a ‘hero’, how do you honor someone like Peralta or Giunta?
Not liberally using the term hero doesn’t take away from honorable actions that others may have exhibited.
@CI They never should have received valor awards, but I respect what they went through which is why I use the term. That’s my view on POWs as a whole.
Ann, comprehension is not your strong suit is it? This POS did go AWOL and for you to compare recovering him to our war dead is disgusting. They did there part, walking off your FOB does not qualify Ann. Diverting massive resources to locate and free a useless SOS is foolish.
What did you fail to understand about legitimate circumstances where one might be captured? Oddy enough, every example you cite is an aviator; the most legitimate of all circumstances and not anywhere near what this kid, Jessica, Shosho or the four soldiers in Kosovo did.
And where do I suggest they shoot themselves to avoid capture? Jessica could not, she was out and Shosho did not even fire her weapons at the Iraqis let alone consider shooting herself.
I can critique (not second guess) Shoosho and Jessica and not doing anything but throwing up your hands or being knocked out does not qualify one as a hero. Shosho was a food blister who hid under a truck and never fired her weapon… period. As to not wanting the attention that is a lie. If you dont want attention do not write a book. Do not go on FOX news and Larry King Live.
CI’s correct here, Ann. Merely doing one’s duty – even under arduous and difficult circumstances – in and of itself doesn’t make one a hero. If that were the case, the term would apply to anyone who served in Iraq/Afghanistan/Kuwait/Qatar/Korea/wherever things were tough.
The term is abused as hell, and it’s well past time we collectively stopped doing so. Such abuse cheapens the term to the point of being meaningless. It also leads to collective forgetting of those who actually have performed heroic deeds. As a nation, we’re IMO perilously close to doing that now.
“Poor is the Nation that has no Heros, but beggared is the Nation that has, and forgets them.”
@JACK Was there an investigation that determined he did go AWOL? I personally feel he did, but until we know definitively then I won’t label him as such.
And you’re right, I concede the point on Lynch and Johnson. But if they really wanted attention heaped on them then why did they both more or less disappear from the public eye?
And gotta love this kids family. Yes, lets swap a bunch of guys who have killed our guys for this POS so that the swapped Teletubbies can go right back to killing our guys who actually fight!
Think about that! Swap killers for a deserter so those killers can take the field again and kill our guys!
Disgusting.
Ann, they went out of the public eye only after doing the Fox News, CNN, Larry King Live, and everything else and how much can you milk doing nothing for?
The entire story of the 507th disgusts me. We (the Corps) lost a lot of good men that day (diverted to rescue people like Shosho and Lynch) and to my knowledge none of them recieved any medal higher than a Purple Heart. But the 507th recieved ELEVEN Bronzr Stars, and two Silver Stars for getting lost, ambushed and beaten. That for a unit that numbered 31 soldiers!
Every POW recieved a Bronze Star, Purple Heart and POW Medal.
Eighteen Marines were killed in action that day and between actually fighting and being killed they never found the “courage” to throw down their weapons and quit!
Just a sore point I guess.
The only area I’ll partially diverge from Jack’s position is that of expending resources to locate/retrieve Bergdahl. The network that is holding him is a network arrayed against us anyway. Targeting them for any reason is a net plus, and it would remove the propaganda and bargaining value, if we are able to secure him in the normal course of action against this specific group.
So while expending resources specifically to secure Bergdahl is certainly debatable, it could almost be considered moot.
Damn!
Don’t CARE what the circumstances of his capture might be, he does NOT deserve to remain in captivity. Period. End of story.
Meanwhile, dozens of enemy combatants are being released because that is what the appeasers making the deal do. They are doing it because that is all they know. Or want. And it would happen whether or not our side has one in captivity.
Anyone have a serious reason why we should not get one of our own in return?
Plenty of time for whining about who gets more face time on TV after he is home.
Jack: we get it that you’re not a fan of anyone taken POW, and that you lost a friend in POW recovery attempts. But you need to back the hell off with the wild accusations here.
You almost certainly weren’t there at the time; and unless you were (and probably not even then), you don’t know how Bergdahl got captured. Neither do I. In fact, the only one who does know definitively what happened appears to be Bergdahl. So unless you’ve got access to info you shouldn’t be discussing in an open forum, you have no better idea how Bergdahl got captured than anyone else. Specifically, all you know is what you’ve read and heard. And published accounts have ranged from “got separated from patrol and got lost” to “got drunk and wandered off” to your allegation of desertion. No one knows for sure which is correct.
Further: what led to his capture doesn’t freaking matter. If Bergdahl did something wrong that contributed to his capture, that can be investigated and addressed after he’s recovered. But we don’t abandon POWs, regardless of the circumstances of their capture.
@JACK I suspect more than a few of those appearances were at the behest of the Army more than Johnson or Lynch. Lynch especially seemed adamant about letting the truth of what happened get out when she could have just claimed the Army version. The whole incident struck me more as bureaucratic opportunism from higher ups rather than deceit from the soldiers involved. It reminds me of how they tried to spin the Pat Tillman fiasco.
@OWB Agreed. If he did actually go AWOL then bringing him back home will at the very least allow for him to face any legal proceedings. I know POW and MIA personnel continue to be promoted, but if there was any certainty of misconduct would they have attempted to charge him in absentia or at least stop promoting him?
Hondo, nothing wild at all and where do you get off saying I am not a fan of ANYONE taken POW? How can I make that more clear to you? THAT is a “WILD ACCUSATION” in that it is aposition which there is no evidence to support. My opionion on this guy has some support, it is not just a wild accusation.
Bergdahl is a victim of his own actions, period. As to what I discuss, I can discuss whatever I want so long as my OPIONIONS are just that and are based on nothing more than open source material. My opionion, based on those sources, is that this guy was not captured as a result of combat action anymore than were the two sailors who drove off post in Afghanistan before him. In fact, both incidents are very simular.
OWB, so because we release enemy combatants for other reasons releasing some more for this guy is okay? My two sons and son in law served in Iraq and Aghanistan and the idea that they could be killed for this guy bothers me. Sorry, that is my position.
As to not being there at the time is that now the criteria for to make comments? If so please let us know.
Ann, some spin yes but the army did not spin the books. Both have made numerous appearances post army and I believe Shosho’s book and almost all of her appearances were post army.
But hey, these are just my opionions which I seem to need to claify.
No, Jack, that is not what I said, or believe.
The crew making the decision to release anyone was wrong, imo. But, they are not concerned with my opinion. And, as I clearly stated, this bunch of unable to pass a security clearance themselves idiots are going to follow their own agenda no matter what it costs us.
No, I don’t see why any enemy POW’s should be released until AFTER victory. That is when the usual swaps occur. (Yes, I am aware that this is not always true, but generally is.)
No reason that I can see that anyone should have been or should be in the future released until Bowie is home. Especially since they are going to release enemy combatants anyway.
Anyone else struck by the irony of having a poster ridicule the Bergdahl family for demanding that their son be included in the already telegraphed that it will happen enemy combatant release while invoking his own family as the reason he does not want this action to occur?? Yeah, thought a few of you would have seen that, too.
OWB, no irony at all. My two sons served in Iraq and my son in law served in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
One son, and my son in law, both left the Corps this year. My son is still in but his unit will not be going to Afghanistan anytime soon so I have no fear that my boys will die for this guy.
That said, since I am not asking that my nation give up enemy combatants JUST SO MY BOYS will never face the prospect of being lost on a mission to recover Berghal, I fail to see the irony even if they were in Afghanistan right now. Further, I do not mention his family (show me where I do) and therefore cannot be said to have ridiculed them. I am disdainful of the attention, the accolades, the resources devoted and I see this as a pattern. We NEVER say a negative word about these guys no matter how they contributed to their own capture and in the process put a great many other people at risk.
That part of the story is ALWAYS brushed away under a shower of medals and I am disgusted by that.
As to his family, I understand taht they do not want their son to die, what parent would? But I BELIEVE, THOUGH I WAS NOT THERE and BASED SOLELY ON OPEN SOURCE STUFF, that this guy is a captive because of something he did or failed to do. Just an OPINION.
Jack: I’m not making wild accusations, fella. In post 12, you make it clear that you have little use for most if not all persons taken POW. In fact, here are your own words from the end of that comment: “Finally, why would anyone surrender to this enemy? Short of rescue, which is rare, you are going to die a horrible death and that death will be recorded for the world (including your family) to watch.” You also castigate Lynch and Johnson, the 4 individuals taken POW in Bosnia, and the crew of the EP-3 that ended up on Hainan Island after colliding with a Chinese fighter. The only thing you say remotely positive about anyone taken POW is the statement “While there are some legitimate circumstances for one to become a POW . . . . ” That’s the proverbial “backhanded compliment” if I’ve ever heard one. Bottom line: anyone with reasonable intellect reading what you wrote above in comment 12 would conclude you have little use for those taken POW, and believe in general POWs deserve their fate for surrendering. If that wasn’t what you intended to say, you need to learn how to express yourself more clearly. And you are indeed making accusations regarding Bergdahl for which you have no proof. In comments 27 and 21, you accuse Bergdahl point-blank of “going AWOL” and of being a “deserter”. You do not present these as your opinion; rather, you present these statements as fact. Those are serious accusations. Unless you have proof, you’re best advised not to make such accusations. But you do not know the circumstances of Bergdahl’s capture; neither do I. So how about you quit maligning him publicly? There is a point at which expressing one’s opinion crosses the line. You’ve done so above. I’d also guess that if it were a relative or friend of yours that was held POW you’d be in favor the US government to try and recover them – regardless of the circumstances of their capture, and regardless of the fact that it might place soldiers at risk. And you… Read more »
Hondo, post 12 is very specific and not general at all and therefore cannot be extened to be my take on POWs in general. What in post 12, specifically, would you not agree with? I certainly stand by my positions on the cases I mention. But my positions are just my opionions and as all involved were hailed as heroes I may be wrong.
Nothing I said in that post was meant to be backhanded at all but an acknlwgement that there are circumstances in which capture is unavoidable.
As to my comments about surrendering to “this enemy” the point is why would you when horrible death is almost certain? No bravery here, I and the majority of men I know simply would not want to die THAT way. Far better to be shot. I think I expressed myself clearly enough but concede that maybe I did not.
Rarely does anyone in this forum start what is an opionion with “in my opionion” but it seems that I needed to when I said what I did about Berghal.
I know my sons and son in law… thanks bunches. As to myself, I believe I would not support my kid if he did something I felt was wrong. I am not in the Bergdahl family’s position but I believe I would stand by what I believe to be right.
But as I do not KNOW what happened with this guy I will just move on and wait to see what happens.
Does anyone know how many times military personnel have gone AWOL in country? The only one I know about happened on my 2008 deployment thanks to an email that I’m pretty sure everyone on the network got forwarded at some point. This junior enlisted Army intel kid decided Afghanistan wasn’t for him, and so cooked up this scheme to walk from Afghanistan to Europe. Fortunately some ANA guys spotted the dipshit (he was wearing his uniform, flak, and kevlar) a few miles from his FOB, and promptly brought him back.
He’d left his rifle and ammo because he didn’t want the felony equivalent for stealing it. When they were going through his stuff they found: 2 canteens, a map of Eurasia, a compass, a Pashto/English dictionary, some issued survival gear, a couple MREs and some Slim Jims, and a notebook with vaguely worded route plans. The highlight of all of this was the photo of him they took showed his weapon of choice slung over his back. It turns out it was one of those dinky imitation broadswords you would see being sold at the FOB’s bazaar by the guys who tried to pass off all those bogus ancient coins.
Apparently he was trying to get to Eastern Europe or Switzerland. I never heard anything else about him, but I’ve always wondered what happened to him.
Jack: Frankly, I agree with much of your comment 12. I just disagree with a couple of specifics, and with your implied conclusion. And I think you’re slamming Bergdahl without sufficient evidence to do so. Here’s what I disagree with specifically: 1. You state that Bergdahl went AWOL. AWOL generally means intentionally gone from place of duty for 24+ hrs w/o authority. No proof for that at this point, so I can’t agree. 2. “In the United States the fastest way to become a hero is to surrender.” Don’t agree with this, either. The quickest way appears to be to come home with a Purple Heart – even though this proves nothing concerning heroism. One guy in a sister organization we supported in Iraq got a Purple Heart for catching shrapnel while he was in the latrine. Literally. I don’t understand the Bosnia incident, but I also won’t criticize them – because I wasn’t in their shoes. If you’re outnumbered badly enough and are caught in an indefensible position, your options quickly become “suicide by resistance” or capture. That could well have been the case. I tend to agree with you re: the EP3 pilot – I could never understand why he didn’t ditch in the South China Sea vice land his aircraft in Hainan. But his aircraft was damaged, and I’m not a pilot; he may have had good reason. And “big Navy” obviously felt he did the right thing. I think I’d have made a very different decision – but I haven’t seen all the facts, either. Lynch and Jackson were obviously initially given more credit than they deserve. That’s now well-known fact and not generally disputed by anyone these days. However, I disagree with your implied conclusion. You appear to be of the opinion that anyone who didn’t resist to the last round or who screwed up and contributed to their own capture through error or misconduct aren’t worth the cost of being rescued. I can’t buy that. We don’t leave people behind – period. IMO, anyone who’s captured deserves recovery, even if they were a shithead… Read more »
You are right about the Purple Heart. As to the EP3 I do not think Big Navy agreed with it but felt it was good PR though I do not know. As an interesting aside, at about this time my wifew as in the hospital with the widow of a Marine pilot. the two got to talking and it was decided I should help the widow fix her husband’s shadow box since it was jacked up.
He had flown 100 -200 missions in an A-4 in Vietnam and had a DFC. Obviously I felt he was more deserving than the EP3 guy. The Bosnia (actually Kosovo incident) was a direct result of the three soldiers being where they had no right to be.
But no, I do not mean to imply taht we should fight to the last man in most circumstances. Surrendering to the Serbs is okay in taht you can expect to survive. My only issue with the Kosovo incident is what led up to that point.
The same is true of surrendering to teh Iraqi Army since they are only known to have killed one captive; Sergeant Walters. But fighting these guys I would be more than willing to fight to the last round just because I do not want to die in a far more horrible fashion.
Being captured by these people has been shown to be a death sentance.
It doesn’t matter how, what when or where, or their level of resistance, or piss poor choices prior to capture. They wear the uniform, they are one of us. You get your brothers out of the fire first, then you can talk all you want about how it happened.
Additionally, I don’t think I have EVER heard someone say that they wouldn’t be willing to take all reasonable risks to get other servicemembers out of captivity. I find it appalling that there are soldiers out there that place so little value on the lives of their comrades that they will publicly state they the captives aren’t worth the lives lost to recover them. It’s part of who we are to take care of each other. It’s part of our culture and ethos. WE DO NOT LEAVE PEOPLE BEHIND.
You need to reevaluate your choice to serve if this is how you feel about your comrades.
I agree with Jonn, Hondo, and OWB:
1) We leave NO BODY behind.
2) Allegations of wrong-doing should wait until SGT Bergdahl is back in the United States, and the proper authorities can ascertain the facts.
3) Recovery efforts should have been initiated immediately, forcefully, and completely.
POW’s vs Heroes:
I also agree with those above that state the term “Hero” is overused and abused, de-valuing the meaning itself. A Hero is someone that risks their life to save the lives of others. POW’s earn a POW Medal. Casualties earn a Purple Heart. Those are medals I never wanted to earn, but each have great meaning. Neither, of its own accord, impart “Hero” status.
And Finally Jessica Lynch and the 507th: Lynch has earned great credit, not for her actions on the battlefield, but for her integrity after the fact. Clearly, there was a lack of leadership and training in that unit. It was in the wrong place at the wrong time because the leadership couldn’t read a map. It was ambushed and captured because they had not trained. Lynch could easily have kept quiet and received medals she had not earned. That was the easy path. SHE set the record straight, and that was the hard, difficult path.
JACK: If your progeny are unwilling to go on the mission to rescue an American Soldier in the enemy’s hands, have them tell their command to call me. I will readily suit up again, and risk my hide, to bring him home. I suspect there are enough of those in the grey hair club, willing to go, to spare your kids the risk. “I ain’t as good as I once was, but I’m as good once, as I ever was.”
Ya know Jack, you say you’re a Marine, but as a Marine, a tractor rat with 3rd AABn out of Del Mar Camp Pendleton, I remember being taught “No man left behind”. I don’t remember anything being said about ‘except for’ deserters, shit birds, losers, a$$holes or non Marines.
Get him home THEN decide if he went UA or lost his mind or had the worlds worst case of blue balls and was looking for some nookie! Until he’s tried and convicted of something under the UCMJ, he’s still an American GI. As such he deserves our full support and our every effort to bring him home. If that was your son, would you be so critical as to the circumstances of his capture or would you want your boy home? As the father of a veteran, I KNOW what my answer is.
he is a deserter!!! I was there looking for him. People have died looking for him.