So tired of the “chickenhawk” thing
Yeah, so Ron Paul thinks he can resonate among the anti-war turds by calling Newt Gingrich a “chickenhawk”, meaning that Gingrich avoided the draft during Vietnam, but supports a robust military and somehow supported the wars in the Middle East, even though Gingrich was out of of office since the 90s. From CNN;
“He’s probably as aggressive with the military as anybody,” Paul said on Fox News. “He supports all the wars in the Middle East a thousand times more than I would. But you know in the nineteen-sixties when I was drafted in the military, he got several deferments. He chose not to go. Now he’ll send our kids to war.”/
That “when I was drafted” line is troubling. Paul served in the Air Force and as Steve Bussey points out, the Air Force has never had a draft. So, what is Paul trying to say, that he was drafted but enlisted in the Air Force to avoid the Army? That was fairly common practice, for those of you who may not know…people even enlisted in the Army and took a three year hitch in order to get the job they wanted rather than take a crap shoot with the draft.
Regardless, Paul was in the military during the sixties, hs record said he did a two-year hitch from 1963 until 1965. Johnson first sent combat formations to Vietnam in 1965, so Paul missed Vietnam and sat it out in a Reserve unit until he was discharged in 1968. Not that there’s anything wrong with any of that – until he uses that to assume some sort of moral authority in the discussion.
I thought all of that draft dodger, chickenhawk shit was dead after we elected Bill Clinton who took such extreme measures to avoid being drafted that he lied about his intentions and preferred study behind the Iron Curtain to military service. And we now have a President who never considered military service. Bill Clinton ramped up operations in Somalia without giving the troops what they needed to win there. He fired off cruise missiles like the Fourth of July at anything moved and got us involved in Kosovo and Bosnia. So where was the chickenhawk label? The current president is doing the same with drones and can’t even bring himself to salute properly.
The same people who called George W Bush a “chickenhawk” for his service in the Texas National Guard during the Vietnam War are now applauding Ron Paul’s assertion that everyone is a draft dodger except him, and Paul spent his Vietnam years in the Reserves. Like I said, there’s nothing wrong with serving in the reserve forces during Vietnam…if you did, you were in uniform which is a damn sight better than the last two Democrat presidents could bring themselves to accomplish, but don’t try to make it sound like you faced down the Viet Cong Tet Offensive all by your lonesome when the only thing you defended was Fort Living Room and Firebase Refrigerator.
Thanks to melony for the link to Bussey’s blog.
Last week listened to an MSNBC round table where some douche from WaPo talking about Veterans support of candidates said Ron Paul Served and was the real deal unlike Perry who “sort of served”? I was Like WTF didnt Perry fly USAF C-130’s for 5 years on active duty and now that doesnt count compared to Dr. Short Arm Inspection Paul looking for Penis Pus for 2?
Why is Paul even allowed to run for office? I thought you had to be sane to be considered! I mean, how can he seriously be considered, what with his pre-ww2 isolationist views, and his crazy, pretty much looney views on Bradley Manning and foreign policy? Can’t we just vote to have him civilly committed?
Many of the folks today have a misimpression of what went on during Nam regarding enlistments. I believe that the mistaken impression is owing to the very different role played by National Guard units today, beginning with Desert Storm. Back in the ’60s, it was common for draft-aged men to join the National Guard to stay out of the shit. (That didn’t work out necessarily well if one joined the Air Guard.) In fact, young men who received their Greetings letter from Uncle Sam sometimes ran to the recruiting stations the same day. Some ran to their cars and drove north into Canada. It is very different today but, back then, any place BUT the regular Army and Marine Corps was regarded as ass protection.
Sadly, that was Vietnam, LBJ wouldnt call up the reserves as asked by the Joint Chiefs. In Korea the 40th Division from California went to Korea as did the 45th Division, while other NG Divisions were sent to Germany. IIRC D.co 151Inf, Indiana Guard went to Vietnam as a LRRP co with 2FF. and a Mass Guard Arty Bn went also.
“Hiding out” in the Reserves and National Guard didn’t work out too well for the 5,977 reservists and 101 guardsmen who were killed in Vietnam.
I agree with you about the Reserves, Jonn, and I didn’t mention them. The National Guard was at full strength during Vietnam and service in the Guard (not Air Guard) was the place to go to avoid the shooting war. My personal view is that the potential draftees who joined the Guard then did so for self preservation, not out of patriotic fervor.
http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=64247
And just to add some clarification. George W. Bush flew interceptors. F-102’s, to be precise, which were (in)famous for killing pilots. Although armed with the Falcon air to air missile, the plans were to upgrade all F-102’s to the new Genie, which would have carried a nuclear warhead. As such, all aircrew were required to undergo the testing for reliability involving nuclear weapons. Bush did, and obviously passed.
People claim that Bush joined the air guard to avoid Vietnam service, yet he volunteered to go, and it is worth noting that a number of F-102’s were sent to Vietnam, several being lost in combat, including one shot down by a Mig-21 while escorting B-52’s.
Compare that to Ron Paul. Flight surgeon/Gynecologist. Huh.
@7. The Bush crap was–well, crap. He could have gone to a great many safer places than the Air Guard, that’s for sure. But, I suspect, that was Dad’s influence, him being a WWII fighter pilot in the Pacific.
welcome jonn…anytime
In the local paper opinions here in Tucson yesterday, a Paul supporter referred to him as “The 10 year 6 tour Veteran” – I informed her my math came out different as far as how long he served, and inquired what he toured 6 times. Never did get an answer.
Let’s also be perfectly clear- the army national guard (I have no idea about the army reserve)by DA/NGB policy was only allowed to fill 50% of it’s billets through at least 1968 (when McNamara, that jackass, cut the force structure by 50%), so while “full strength”, it really wasn’t- possibly reasoned out by the puzzle palace boys to keep it from being filled by “avoiders” as you all have said above.
OK, since I am among only a few of my closest friends I will admit it – I escaped to the Air National Guard.
Yep – so much easier to deal with having both civilian AND military careers to develop concurrently, being gone from hearth and home for months at a time, being reminded that even though we met the same requirements that we were not “real” members of the military yet somehow were subjected to the same name calling et al as everyone else.
Not complaining. I am very proud of my service, and I knew with great clarity what I had signed on for. What IS shocking is the attitude of late that instead of being patriots we were cowards? Huh?
Oh, well. Guess they have nothing else to throw at us, so they default to the personal insults. May I count that as a win for our side? (pardon the smirk)
2-17 Air Cav’s comments sum up what a lot of us who lived it feel. You had a choice to make. Self or Service.
There were more than 400 KIA’s prior to the 65 arrival of “Combat forces” as well.
Being an equal opportunity despiser, there’s a long list of policians on both sides who chose self over service during Vietnam.
As you mentioned, Gingrich didn’t send anyone to fight in Iraq or Afghanistan. He wasn’t in Congress. Paul was, and he voted to give the CINC a blank check to kill terrorists and yes, get the Afghanistan War rolling. Paul sent people to die, not Gingrich.
And are you trying to tell me that he wasn’t really drafted? Wow, big surprise. Ron Paul lying.
I also found something fishy in his constant assertions that he was drafted. From what I understand, Paul was a flight surgeon. That’s very admirable. I salute him for that.
But I had never heard of doctors being drafted. Young kids just out of high school? Sure. They snatched those guys up, usually for the Army, and usually for the infantry. But a guy with a special skill–in this case, medicine–getting drafted?
That sounds really wrong. Somehow, telling people that he was drafted gains him points, particularly with his base.
Chalk up another Ron Paul lie.
Paul was bornj in 1935. If he served from ’63 to ’65, that means that he was probably about twenty-eight when he went in, and thirty when he left. He was a doctor, and he was in the Air Force. He was NOT drafted.
A friend of mine, an older gentleman, was a doctor in the army at about the same time. He joined about the same age. The Army paid for his med school and so he owed them some service. I suspect that Paul did the same thing. How he could claim he was drafted is beyond me.
Well…he’s just a lying sack.
I think your citing of the Reserve forces KIA in Vietnam probably includes Active Duty Officers who were commissioned in the Army Reserve, as was the practice.
There were nowhere near enough Reserves called up during VN to make Reserve KIA’s more than ten percent of the total, Jonn.
@12. OWB: I tried to clearly distinguish between Air Guard service and other National Guard service during the Nam years, pointing out that the Air Guard was not the safe haven that the rest of the Guard was those years, with very limited exception. There were many reasons men chose to join the Guard but those of us who lived through those years know that if you wanted to meet your obligation to the country and, at the same time, avoid a trip to SE Asia, joining the Guard was it. Again, I was not talking about the Air Guard, a different animal entirely.
AC, no offense taken at your remarks at all – your distinction was clear. My comments are at “them” out there – the slingers of the term chickenhawk and such. You are not among their ranks by a long shot!
Gonna go sit in the corner for a bit. Maybe get out a small tinfoil hat – ’cause that attempt at humor seems to have been WAAAAY off target!
PS Thank you for making that distinction, AC.
As a 66-74 USAF vet, it’s my recollection that doctors were indeed drafted in that time frame just as Ron Paul describes, and by all services I believe.
What I find reprehensible about his attack on Gingrich is that I do not believe that Ron Paul could have made it through eight years of college and a two year residency without using student deferments, the very thing he excoriates others for doing.
I wish some reporter would ask him about that.
Frank
My Dad was at Duke Med. School a year ahead of Ron Paul. After finishing med school and his internship (1 year), Dad found out from a friend’s father who was at the Pentagon that Dad, his buddy, and another buddy, were all about to be drafted. They all joined the Air Force. Dad got the joy of being a flight surgeon on alert for the Cuban Missle Crisis at McDill, but other than that saw no real action. Like Dr. Paul, Dad did his two years and then got out.
Unlike Dr. Paul, Dad rarely refers to himself as a veteran (except at Home Depot when they are giving discounts – Dad is cheap). He says that he did his duty, but Veteran got shot at or did more than the required 2.
Interestingly, my Mom’s cousin was in Dr. Paul’s class at Duke and played bridge with Dr. Paul and his wife frequently. The cousin retired from the Army as a Col. and a shrink. He now just shakes his head at any mention of Ron Paul.
@20:
Well, I stand corrected then. I had never heard of a doctor being drafted, or anyone being drafted into the AF. But if you’re telling me that it happened, then I guess it happened.
@22. Yep, they were drafted and were among the oldest draftees called. It makes sense when you think about it. How else would we get the M.D.s needed? No slight against doctors is meant but if you’ve spent years in school and another in residence, joining the military in time of conflict is probably not on your career to-do list.
You already know my assessment & opinion of you, OWB. You can strap on that pea shooter & hang out with me any old time you want, lol!
Thanks, street. And good job on the Thorsen deal.
Just in passing, one of my close relatives first went to ‘Nam the year I was born. 1954. He did not go alone.
#4″Sadly, that was Vietnam, LBJ wouldnt call up the reserves as asked by the Joint Chiefs.” That is a critical point that is very rarely mentioned. The Army also had to fight, expand, and replace casualties at the same time. That dramatically damaged the leadership of the combat units which could have been alievated if Johnson had called up the reserves.
This is typical Paul speak, another accusation justified by a half truth, made by a man speaking from a moral authority he does not have.