The new bayonet training
Last year, the Army announced that it ended bayonet training and it claimed that particular series of combatives is obsolete. They stopped issuing bayonets to soldiers which prompted soldiers to bring their own blades to the battle, which in turn has prompted the Army to develop training for fighting with knives according to Stars & Stripes;
The new technique was demonstrated during last year’s Association of the United States Army convention in Washington. A soldier approached an attacker, who grabbed the end of his rifle. In the ensuing scuffle, the soldier grabbed his bayonet from a sheath on his leg and stabbed the attacker into submission.
Despite the change in training, [Matt Larsen, the former director of the Army’s combatives program] has not heard of units issuing the bayonet to soldiers again.
“What I have seen is they are teaching it now in basic [training], but it’s a trickle-up effect coming from basic,” he said. “In fact, I’m in Iraq right now and one of the things I’m doing is showing units this new doctrine.”
Civilians are probably shocked that the Army teaching soldiers to fight with knives is a newsworthy event. It’s sad that the Army is moving away from traditional military skills, skills which build teams and individuals aside from improving combat skills. I guess its a result of our dependence on technology to do our killing.
Thanks to Jeff Schogol for the link.
Category: Military issues
Urban combat is “In your Face” with engagement ranges of 100 Meters to point blank. Our enemy prefers Ambush tactics. In that we should train how to kill first without arms, then add new skills on top of that. Technology should always be the last thing learned, why? because its the first to fail. A knife never requires batteries, and will never run out of ammo. it may be the last resort, but it is also the most reliable provided you are better trained.
I read a paper that talked about the Army discontinuing bayonet training and they looked at difference in what the Marines are teaching. The Marines are still going to teach bayonet tactics because, as they state “we want to instill the warrior ethic”. Makes sense to me.
It would be nice if they revamp Level 1 Combatives to include some basic knife fighting skills as well as other expedient methods of overcoming an enemy in close combat. While I understand the point of the Modern Army Combatives Program I’ve always felt that the basics of it are all but useless on today’s battlefield. Sure, it builds a level of confidence (just enough for us to get our asses kicked, as one of my Drill Sergeants told us back in the day) and gives Soldiers a basic unarmed skill-set that might be useful in limited situations such as prisoner/detainee control, but today’s Soldiers fight in a vastly different uniform than what we learn combatives in. The pit matches I took part in at Campbell and in Iraq were a great stress reliever and even better PT but they, like the training itself, were always conducted in soft shoes and BDU/ACU. Add thirty or forty pounds (minimum) of gear into the equation and I highly doubt most of us would be able to apply a proper choke, arm-bar, or even achieve the clench.
My mentality is this: if my weapon is dry or I find myself in close-quarters with the enemy I have a number of expedient weapons at my disposal. A hot M4 muzzle punch might work, as would a helmet, e-tool (if available), or a knife itself.
Bayonet training was seemingly outdated even in 2001, what with “What makes the grass green? Blood, blood, blood!” “Why is the sky blue? Because God loves the Infantry!” and a choreographed “Fix, Bayonets!” routine. In addition to the bayonet, however, we learned other basic weapon fighting techniques. Anyone remember “Buttstroke to the head series, MOVE!”?
To clarify, I don’t mean that the bayonet itself is outdated, just the training methods.
I’ve only heard bits and pieces on this, but perhaps someone can address it here: Isn’t MMA (mixed martial arts) fighting all the rage now, and isn’t knife fighting part of that? And isn’t that used in the military?
PintoNag,
MMA is a sport, but the Modern Army Combatives Program is based off of some of the styles it incorporates. If I am not mistaken, more advanced combatives levels do add unarmed versus armed and armed versus armed techniques, to include knife fighting.
Thanks, fm2176!
fm2176: Good times, good times. Yeah, the buttstroke to the melon is always a favorite. The argument is one that can be answered correctly on boths sides. The thought that modern fighting makes the bayonet outdated haven’t read what the Brits did in Iraq, when they fixed bayonets and charged. You’re right in that the training techniques for bayonets may be outdated and in need of modernization, however the bayonet as an extension of the weapon is time honored and important. Whereas knife fighting techniques are also important (just ask David Bellavia about that) in CQB. Maybe they need to teach both, not just drop one in favor of the other?
The Air Force found out that their doctrine about relying on modern technology using missiles for shooting down aircraft was a mistake. There was a time when the reliance on missiles was touted as “the end of the gunfighter”. Dogfighting was banned in training and you were forbidden to practice the techniques. Some wiley Veterans decided to practice on their own out of sight. The first F-4 Phantoms didn’t even have guns on them, because of that. When the airpower of the US was getting their asses kicked by outdated Mig 17s in Vietnam, the Air Force decided that the art of dogfighting was still alive and brutally effective, but not for us, but rather against us. So, they brought it back in and the kill ratio improved dramatically.
I’m just saying that because some chucklehead declares something outdated doesn’t mean it needs to be dropped.
I’m Coast Guard and not Army, but in my Port Security experience both CONUS and OCONUS, I definitely believe the bayonet should be a standard weapon for Port Security Units.
The one place I would require them is the ECPs. Even passively, bayonets convey a very powerful message. They’re a nice intermediary weapon without having to draw your sidearm for a belligerent person. Make no mistake about it — going to the “Guard” position is a very effective communication tool. Lastly, no one ever had to worry about a negligent discharge of a bayonet.
As far as knife training, unfortunately, there is no formal Coast Guard training with the knife, although we are issued the Ontario Mark 3 Navy knife. To fill the gap, unofficially, I distribute the Marine Corps Manual on Close Combat and Hand to Hand Training to the crew for light reading on their own leisure time. They know the deal.
After all, my life is too important to be left to politicians and staff officers in Washington.
Next time anyone questions the practical use of a knife in modern combat, reply with two words: David Bellavia.
Claymore #10: Ya took the words right out of my mouth. Bellavia, indeed!
There’s so much stuff on an M4 these days that engaging in bayonetry leaves a joe open to statements of charges.
#12 DaveO,
True, I can only imagine trying to explain how the PEQ-2A got broken and the Sure-Fire and ACOG damaged by an enemy’s ribcage…
As for ECPs, I read somewhere way back when I was a gonna-be about shotguns being preferred for ammunition storage areas. Of course, the Mossberg 590 still has a lug, though every shotgun I’ve seen in the hands of military are either M1014s (used by the Marines guarding Bruce Willis when he played for us) or Mossberg 500s without lugs. In TOG, we also had a number of old Winchester Model 12s which I enjoyed fixing a M1917 bayonet on to impress the young Soldiers when they drew their M14s. Wherever I read that, it must have been fiction as I have yet to see a shotgun used as anything other than a door breaching tool.
I think the shotgun/bayonet combo would be extremely effective as a deterrent at an ECP, supplemented of course by the usual weapons. I cannot imagine a better combo for when things get up close and personal. As I enjoy my last day of leave doing some much needed cleaning, I might just grab the Mossberg and M9 bayonet to remind myself what they look like.
I NEVER went anywhere without at least my Buck 110 on me. We weren’t issued bayonets,but when I was in the woods, I always had my Buck, and a Gerber Mk II.
Thunder 26: Yeah, I always had my Gerber Mk II with me, also.
I carried a Mk II along with an ASP during the invasion. Later I ordered a few Cold Steel knives and retired the Gerber in favor of a Voyager X2–there’s something about a six-inch bladed folding knife, plus it was lighter and easier to carry. For nostalgia, though, nothing beats the Mk II.
We actually were issued bayonets back then; most of them stayed in the “b” or “c” bag (can’t remember which) but we had to draw them and take them with us to Kuwait. I jokingly asked my squad leader if I could weld a lug on my M249 spare barrel, had he said yes I would have done so since we still carried those as well. From what I understand, later rotations disallowed batons and spare barrels were no longer required for us light guys to carry on patrol.
Our first platoon had the misfortune of getting a 2LT who decided it would be a great idea to keep his bayonet fixed at all times. He ended up almost sticking a couple of his own men loading and unloading trans before taking it off. Later I confused the same guy (by then in a different company) for an ate-up Private on the way to chow. His DCUs were sagging and his M4 slung way low on his back. A quick check and it appears he is now a Captain in a different branch so I guess he was just detailed Infantry.
If Brits in bearskin hats and Captain Kangaroo coats put them on their bullpups, well then. . .
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_P3gqcL2Brb0/TQhEIXywphI/AAAAAAAADhM/WwRj51dFZdE/s1600/buckingham-palace-guards9.jpg
It’s very disturbing that the military is wasting time on training like this when there is so much more of a need for more Diversity Training.
malclave, you rabble-rouser, you…
Diversity training?
Like, Leatherman vs. Gerber?
Can’t we all just cut along?
Like, Leatherman vs. Gerber?
We need to be tolerant of people who prefer either. Or if they like both, that’s okay, too.
The point is not whether or not bayonet training is outdated. In my two tours I have never used a bayonet (i had a machete and an axe up on our OP in afghanistan because of places like wanat, keating, bari ali etc getting overrun in afghanistan) and it’s impractical considering everybody has a one, 2 or 3 point sling (that’s why we muzzle punch). Much like pugil sticks bayonet training is supposed to forge that killer instinct. I remember at Benning in 2005 when I was in basic guys would get absolutley ferocious (like screaming and practically frothing at the mouth) and hit the dumbies so hard they would break their buttstocks. That’s the point is to make that killer instinct and make straight up death dealers in 18-20 year old kids. So I say keep it for that soul purpose of giving infantryman a taste of violence
One of the guys I was deployed with carried a framing hammer with him just in case.
I am a big proponent of adopting Krav Maga from the Israelis. Maybe mixing in some of the European Martial Arts, wich was designed to be used in armor.
This is exactly what happened once before in the 70s, the Army did away with the bayonet, it later brought it back. It was one of my father’s expirences. He was taught just before it was discontinued, I think he was in the guard when they brought it back.
Its day has not passed. I could have sworn the Marines also used it in the invasion of Iraq as well.
Edged weapons add a distinct psychological dimesion. An enemy who is willing to close and stab you is far more frightening them one firing from afar. Sorry can’t remember where i read that.
Bayonet training is essential. It serves a vital function. One should always prepare fot the worst. The unit may be isolated. Ammunition can be at a premium. The only viable option might be attack. Fixing bayonets can make a big difference in a tight spot.
Old Trooper….the “Brits” were the Scottish Regiment, Black Watch. My grandfather was Black Watch in WW I. They wiped out a bunch of Iraqi’s with the bayonet only. Never piss off the men in dresses.
We used e-tools and bayonets on LZ Carolyn, 6 May 69. They told us in boot camp that we’d never use the bayonet but had to learn it anyway. We were all glad we had the training.
Honor and Courage
Yeah, even when bayonets are not used that often, I would imagine that there is something pretty terrifying about having a squad of screaming men charging at you with blades on their rifles.