Pushing the Envelope

| December 17, 2020

Hate speech is bad and must be banned. A problem. This depends on who is defining hate, and what they intend to do about it. One man’s hate is another’s heritage, to paraphrase the old saying, and the First Amendment isn’t about speech one agrees with.

Which brings us to the Governor of New York Andrew Cuomo’s latest edict on “symbols of intolerance and hate.”

Poetrooper sends.

Cuomo Signs State Law Barring Sale and Display of “Symbols Of Hate”

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo signed legislation this week that would ban the the sale of Confederate flags and other symbols of “intolerance and hate” on public property and limit the display of such symbols. As a long-standing free speech advocate, you must often defend speech that you find offensive. However, the First Amendment is not designed to protect popular speech. We do not need protection for speech that people support. The test of free speech is to support those with whom you disagree and speech that you oppose. This is one such case. In my view, the Cuomo legislation is a violation of the First Amendment.

We have previously discussed the alarming rollback on free speech rights in the West, particularly in Europe. Indeed, Norway recently criminalized private speech at home deemed hateful or offensive. Indeed, this legislation follows the European view that has destroyed free speech on that continent.

Cuomo wrote that “[b]y limiting the display and sale of the confederate flag, Nazi swastika and other symbols of hatred from being displayed or sold on state property, including the state fairgrounds, this will help safeguard New Yorkers from the fear-installing effects of these abhorrent symbols.”

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” Voltaire may/may not have said, but the point is clear.

Read the entire article here: JONATHAN TURLEY
Thanks, Poe.

Category: Guest Link, Politics, The Constitution

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Roh-Dog

There is nothing more offensive than the ultimate hate symbol; the American flag.

Hoisted by slave owners, racists and colonizers alike, on every continent on Mother Earth and even the Moon!

Its time to banish this declaration of white Christian male heteronormativity to the DUST BIN OF HISTORY!

We can turn our collective backs on these evils of Capitalism and preference of individual liberty in order to form a more perfect union, one of collectiveness!

Do IT COMRADES! REMOVE THAT AWFUL HISTORY!

Where we’re going, we don’t need ‘history’!

seriously,

Thunderstixx

Classic !!!
ROFLMMFAO !!!!!

Thunderstixx

Long version !!!
I liked it so much I bought the DVD on eBay for $3.99 LMAO !!!

KoB

Lawdy Lawdy, where do we start? The obvious, of course. I, too, will defend your right to speak what ye may with my last drop of blood. I do not have to agree with what you say, but I must defend your right. Ergo, a True Patriot must defend my right. Many of us took the Oath to defend the Constitution, NOT the Country, and not any elected official, from ALL enemies, foreign and domestic. We seem to have more domestic enemies than the former. Roh-Dog’s missive above does hit the nail on the head as to the ultimate goal of these “hate speech/symbols” nazis. All things Confederate is just the low hanging fruit. When that is gone from sight, you can rest assured that the Christian Flag/any other symbol and the American Flag is next. No one hates the compromising of the Saint Andrew’s Cross/Army of Northern Virginia “Confederate Battle Flag” by the “hate groups”/KKK/neonazis/white supremists skinheads or whomever more than a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. The besmirching of the Honor of those Men who stood up to defend Home and Hearth, most of who did not own any slaves, is a fight that is being lost more and more each day. Remember when being a “Rebel” was cool? The hatred being spewed toward these Warriors is classic proof that indoctrinating works. I cannot impart my nearly 60 years of study on this subject in a blog comment, but I can throw out some food for… Read more »

Roh-Dog

Amen Brother!

I like it here, and I’m staying.

The list of inconvenient truths about history should always be explored and never exploited. The Northern folk love to think their cause was the mostest justicerous eva! And all you highlighted about is 100% true and ain’t shit nobody’s gonna do anything about it.

What CAN and SHOULD be changed is the dumb sense of moral superiority my fellow Northerns seem to carry around like their stupid cloth NPR shopping bags because they made plastic shopping bags illegal-ish.

I’m tired of idiots dictating the discourse and making decisions on feelings, like we don’t have enough to do to REBUILD THE UNION!

-typed while listening to Bobby Dylan and Johnny Cash’s ‘Girl from the North Country’-

He smiles upon us!

(get some sleep Reb!)

KoB

He does indeed! Turn it up!

I have literally hundreds of research books and thousands of articles reaching all the way back before the War even started. I can bury someone with facts that have been brushed aside or swept under the rug. Need to get me a printer that will scan into a computer or make a PDF out of. Lots of stuff from the Rare Books Library at UGA. Got a Lady Friend that keeps me hooked up.

Throw another log on the fire, freshen that beverage, pull Ms Thang a little closer, and play some more of The Man in Black.

Ex-PH2

Gee whizzikers, could you guys be any MORE restrained???
You ‘fraid someone might hear your rebellious thoughts and ideas?

(If I have to label this /s, I will find you and make you wash dishes.)

OldManchu

Andrew and Freddo.

The “Less” brothers…

Use and Worth.

xyzzy

See expressions you don’t like? Suck it up, buttercup. The world is not your hugbox.

I don’t approve of Confederate imagery; I consider it racist and offensive. However, I respect that others still have the right to display it.

OldManchu

Why do you considerate it racist? Against which race is it offensive to?

Do you consider Old Glory racist and offensive to anyone? Anyone at all?

penguinman000

Every single state specifically mentioned slavery as a root cause for seceding in the articles of secession.

Arguments otherwise are untrue and revisionist history.

KoB

Nope, only some of them when they were the first to leave.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Arkansas_Ordinance_of_Secession

Keep in mind, too, the Emancipation Proclamation didn’t address slavery in the Northern States…AT ALL. And freed very few in the Southern States. And the majority of the ones that were “freed” in Southern States by occupation, were forced to labor by the occupiers.

KoB

North Carolina

http://www.geocities.ws/scvcamp1486/nc.jpg

Texas and Virginia states “…to stand with our sister/other slaveholding states…

11B-Mailclerk

And the letters that accompanied the Articles?

Can’t omit those.

11B-Mailclerk

Oh, and the “Confederate States Constitution” is -very- instructive. Don’t forget to cite it.

You -have- read the letters that accompanied the Articles, right? And that CSA Constitution, right?

(Grin)

penguinman000

KOB-Fair enough, I worded that inaccurately and deserved to be called out. Thanks for keeping me honest. So instead of going down that route how about this piece of evidence? The Constitution of the Confederate States specifically carved out a space for slavery. (Article 1 section 9 and Article IV section 2). By including this in their foundational document it’s a crystal clear message as to one of the root causes of the war. If one were to look at the Declaration and US Constitution it becomes clear what our rebellion was about. While slavery was practiced during that time at no point in the Constitution or the Declaration is slavery mentioned. I’m not arguing slavery was the only cause of the war and I agree the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in the south. My main point is this. Slavery was clearly one of the root causes of the war. Not the only one, but definitely one of them. People associating the Stars and Bars with racism and slavery is one of the few times I can wrap my head around a public sentiment. I also don’t think everyone who flies the Stars and Bars is racist or supports slavery. I was raised in the South and still live there. Hell, I live in SW VA where all sorts of decent people fly them in their yards (the only flags on my property are a Navy flag and Old Glory). I don’t think it should be illegal to… Read more »

KoB

Roger and agree p’man & 11B. And yes it is a very complicated subject and, again, my nearly 65 years of research and study has barely scratched the surface. But on the other hand, I have forgotten more of the true history than most people will ever learn. I dump the whole cause of that tragedy right where it belongs…ON.THE.POLITICIANS! Fearmongering and disinformation was their weapon then. It is their weapon now.

penguinman000

Wait, did a a civil disagreement just occur? Dammit KoB, now we’re going to be kicked off the internets!

KoB

p’man I think we did! Wow! How daHell dat happen? Who was supposed to make vulgar personal attacks? Are we supposed to go back and add some? Wait…there was not a single ORANGE MAN BAD either!?! Next thing you know we’ll hear that China is NOT Communist. Man this is cereal, we can’t have this. Civil disagreements on the inherwebz? Next thing you know, we gonna be looking stuff up using…the horror…BOOKS! Biggest mistake some people make on history is trying to look at it thru the eyes of a person in the current era. That NEVER works. You have to look at things thru the eyes and the attitude of how people were then, not now. African Slavery was illegal when Georgia was FIRST settled. That didn’t stop the slavery of indentured servitude of English/Irish or Scots people. It was only after the Rev War and the systematic theft of Native Lands by transplanted Northern interests that the African Slave Trade began here. Biggest thing was the invention of the cotton gin and the opening up of the “Black Belt” of the deep South. That Black Belt being the very rich farmland land stretching from South Georgia across Alabama and Mississippi. We won’t even get into the whole Sugar Cane fields in Lousyana. (Heels up Harris’s Family made their fortune using slave labor there. Notice that was swept under the rug during the election?) I could go on for hours but won’t, neither the time nor the place. Despite… Read more »

penguinman000

No argument from me. I spent enough time in my travels in less than ideal destinations to know how great we have it here.

I love this country, warts and all.

I’ve been meaning to dig into the pre/post Civil War era. I’ll add your suggestion to the list.

Having a job and adult responsibilities sucks sometimes.

timactual

“at no point in the Constitution or the Declaration is slavery mentioned. ”

Well, the word “slavery” may not appear but the subject is referred to at least once—

“The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.”

Article I, Section 9.

And, while I’m here, I might as well mention that anyone who thinks racism was (or is)confined to the South or that the North went to war to abolish slavery is a fool. Slavery may have been a reason the South seceded, but it was not a reason the North went to war.

gitarcarver

Once again, this bill is being misrepresented and apparently even Cuomo didn’t read the bill itself. The first part of the bill deals with what the STATE sells. If the State doesn’t want to sell an item, they can do that. There is no Constitutional violation there. It is the second part that is the issue: [Ag. & Markets L. § 16, subd, 51.] [The Department of Agriculture & Markets] through the commissioner shall have power to:] Take any measures necessary to prohibit the sale, on the grounds of the state fair and any other fairs that receive government funding, of symbols of hate, as defined in [Pub. Buildings L. § 146], or any similar image, or tangible personal property, inscribed with such an image, unless the image appears in a book, digital medium, or otherwise serves an educational or historical purpose. (emphasis mine.) The bill does not say anything about the display of any “image of hate.” This means that a vendor that is selling books on the Civil War could display a Confederate Battle flag in his booth. It also means that people can walk around the public grounds, state fairs, etc with those same “symbols of hate” as defined in the bill. The case of Heffron v. ISKCON (1981))is on point here. In that case the Supreme Court ruled that state fairs are “limited public forums” which means that government can limit the content of speech (types of items for sale) but not viewpoint based speech (what… Read more »

timactual

“HOW IN THE HECK DID THIS….”

Your faith in the competence of public officials and “experts” is misplaced.

gitarcarver

timactual,

It is not that I have any faith in competence of these people and the “experts.” It is just that I always thought that City Attorneys, or County Attorneys, etc, worked for the citizens. After all, it is the citizens that form the city, county, etc.

It is a mind blowing revelation when you come to realize that they don’t work for the citizens, but for a limited number of elected officials.

So when you expect a City Attorney to give an opinion on the law, be prepared to have them skew their response to benefit the elected officials, and not the blindfolded lady with the scales.

26Limabeans

The remedy for offensive speech is more speech.

Ex-PH2

Norway recently criminalized private speech at home deemed hateful or offensive. – article

Is there a backup for this? I’d like to know how the Weegians plan to monitor what people say in the privacy of their homes, e.g., while in the tub or the shower or on the hopper?

26Limabeans

Brennan said of the CIA: “We will monitor you through your dishwasher”.
Not too far fetched either. Everything is “on line” now. Smart TV’s por exemplo.

timactual

The “internet of things” is the “internet of hackable things”. Cars, thermostats, home security systems, industrial equipment, even pacemakers, have all been hacked.

Poetrooper

Here ya go, Ex:

“LONDON (Thomson Reuters Foundation) – Norway’s parliament outlawed hate speech against transgender people on Tuesday, expanding its penal code which has protected gay and lesbian people since 1981.

“People found guilty of hate speech face a fine or up to a year in jail for PRIVATE remarks, and a maximum of three years in jail for public comments, according to the penal code.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/norway-lgbt-lawmaking/norway-outlaws-hate-speech-against-trans-people-idUSKBN2852DL

Ex-PH2

Doesn’t say how the Weegians will figure out what you said at home in private.

I keep telling myself that “this, too, shall pass”, probably about the time that power generation from windmills shuts off permanently.

gitarcarver

This should warm the cockles of your heart….

Victory in the war on woke: Judges’ landmark ruling in case of mother who called trans woman ‘he’ on Twitter means freedom of speech DOES includes the ‘right to offend’

Judges have insisted that freedom of speech includes the ‘right to offend’ in a landmark ruling which could help to turn the tide on ‘woke’ intolerance after a feminist who called a transgender woman a ‘pig in a wig’ and a ‘man’ was cleared.

Presiding over a case in the Court of Appeal, Lord Justice Bean and Mr Justice Warby said: ‘Freedom only to speak inoffensively is not worth having.’

They added that ‘free speech encompasses the right to offend, and indeed to abuse another’. The judgment from two senior members of the judiciary will set a precedent for future cases involving freedom of speech.

The ruling has emerged only now, but came in the successful appeal decided last week in favour of mother-of-two Kate Scottow, from Hitchin in Hertfordshire, after she had been found guilty under the 2003 Communications Act earlier in the year.

source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9066069/Woke-folk-beware-Freedom-speech-includes-right-offend-say-judges-landmark-ruling.html

Deckie

I’ve often found that those who are offended usually are so because they are ashamed of what they are.

True story.

Poetrooper

Here’s a brief opinion piece about history’s greatest controller of “hate” speech, Stalin:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-forgotten-lessons-of-stalinism

In the Soviet Union, the crime of hate speech quickly morphed into the crime of hate thought and who determined what you might possibly be thinking but Stalin? Fortunately for us, the American Left has no Stalin, only the likes of Biden, Pelosi, Schumer. If they ever find their Stalin, we’re in for a very bloody fight.

We’re probably in for one anyway…

Berliner

Hope Gov Cuomo gets hit hard in his pocket. From Wikipedia: The swastika symbol, 卐 (right-facing or clockwise) or 卍 (left-facing or counterclockwise), is an ancient religious icon in the cultures of Eurasia. The left-facing version may also be referred to as sauwastika. It is used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions, including Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.[1][2][3] In the Western world, it was a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck until the 1930s[4] when the right-facing tilted form became a feature of Nazi symbolism as an emblem of the Aryan race. As a result of World War II and the Holocaust, many people in the West still strongly associate it with Nazism and antisemitism.[5][6] The swastika continues to be used as a symbol of good luck and prosperity in Hindu and Buddhist countries such as Nepal, India, Mongolia, China and Japan. It is also commonly used in Hindu marriage ceremonies. Hindu Swastika symbol in a community Durga Puja festival. The word swastika comes from Sanskrit: स्वस्तिक, romanized: svástika, meaning “conducive to well-being”.[7][8] In Hinduism, the right-facing symbol (卐) is called swastika, symbolizing surya (“sun”), prosperity and good luck, while the left-facing symbol (卍) is called sauvastika, symbolizing night or tantric aspects of Kali.[8] In Jainism, a swastika is the symbol for Suparshvanatha – the seventh of 24 Tirthankaras (spiritual teachers and saviours), while in Buddhism it symbolizes the auspicious footprints of the Buddha.[8][9][10] In several major Indo-European religions, the swastika symbolizes lightning bolts, representing the thunder… Read more »