Four females left in Marine enlisted infantry training
Twelve females began Marine Corps infantry training and after their 20 kilometer (12 miles) march, four are left. Seven began the march, of the three who didn’t complete it, two will retry, and the third elected to train for another specialty. 10% of the men who began didn’t complete it either. From USAToday;
The Marines said 26 men out of the 246 who started also did not complete the hike.
In order to satisfy the requirements for the hike, the Marines must keep up with a brisk pace carrying equipment weighing more than 80 pounds on their backs.
So the social engineers aren’t going to be happy about this. The Navy Times reports that the Pentagon is already in the process of rewriting the standards;
[Jessica Wright, acting undersecretary of defense for personnel] is overseeing the process of opening up all military jobs to women by 2016, including more than 200,000 billets that make up the core of the ground-level combat forces in the Army and Marine Corps. The four services are developing a new set of job-specific physical standards.
She said military officials are consulting with fitness experts, occupational therapists and other medical and health professionals to ensure that the emerging physical standard will be based on “science” rather than “opinion.”
“The standard” as it currently exists has served this country and it’s warriors in combat for more than two hundred years, but I don’t see on Jessica Wright’s list of experts any combat experienced men. “Opinion”, in this case, is based on the crucible of combat.
Compare Ms. Wright’s answer to the article from USAToday about ten months ago when the Pentagon assured us that “The military will not need to lower its physical standards as it opens direct combat jobs to women”.
We can probably rest assured that we won’t see Ms. Wright anywhere near the sound of weapons fired in anger.
Category: Military issues
Waiting to hear how many of the 4 who completed the march, how many forced out with medical discharges due to stress fractures.
10% less bone density, 10% less hemoglobin, 10% more body fat.
My marine turned down the oportunity to participate in infantry training since she would not get infantry out of it and she would lose her chosen school – that being said: The USMC is the only branch currently increasing the standards for females in all of the MOSs.
Well this is by the people who brought you “if you like your health care you can keep it”, so…
/need an editor, should be:
Waiting to hear: of the 4 who completed the march, how many will be forced out with medical discharges due to stress fractures.
Someone explain to me again why the Olympics still has seperate events for men and women and the NFL has no women?
While I understand the misgivings about women in combat arms, I am puzzled at the rather snide attitude concerning these four women who completed the march. It’s easy to say you’d like to do something; much harder to get out there and actually attempt it. Even if they don’t become combat soldiers, they will be stronger women, physically and mentally, for having been subjected to this training. I think they should be commended.
@5 HA because they are based on merit and not subject to the lunacy of the PC warriors.
“There will be changes — maybe men should feel more threatened than women.”
That is the most ridiculous comment I have ever read. You can smell the bias coming off her through the computer screen. She manages to admit she is changing time proven standards, hints that changes will benefit female service members, and threatens male service members all in one sentence.
@8 To be fair, she didn’t make that statement; some no nothing male politician did…
#6, They should be commended, and in a couple of years I fully expect them to reap the rewards of their accomplishments, especially if they complete the entire training regimen. As a young officer I worked with stated a couple of months ago, the first female Ranger School graduate will be on a fast track to make General, while his graduation was just another day in his life.
They are trailblazers and deserve accolades in one respect, but in another respect they are Marines who merely completed a road march that tens–if not hundreds–of thousands of other Marines have completed.
If we truly need to embrace females in my MOS we need to treat them equally. Personally, I admire a woman who can run circles around me, but treating her differently than her male peers who performed the same or better is the wrong way to start this transition.
@9 You are right. My mistake. But none the less, the quote demonstrates the mindset of the people pushing this issue.
@5- Obviously both are run by bigots. /sarc
Anyone know what the ‘brisk pace’ was?
The fact is the women who carry heavier-than-average weights, e.g., backpacks and similar items, develop and retain denser bone mass than women who do not do that.
80 pounds in a backpack isn’t all that much. The pace of the march may have been a deciding factor. That was not disclosed.
And I fail to understand what it is that makes anyone automatically assume that women are more subject to stress fractures than men? Or have you not heard about stress fractures in football and basketball? If that’s just another attempt to make a snide remark about women in the military, it’s uncalled-for.
@10.
“They should be commended….” Why?
“Personally, I admire a woman who can run circles around me….” Why?
“They are trailblazers and deserve accolades in one respect….” Why?
So, about ten% of the men fell out… but some 43% of the women fell out.
Sounds about right.
@16 – How about this instead?
Out of 256 Marines, 34 did not complete the hike.
That’s more than 10% overall. Why is it so very necessary to make a distinction that says women are less than men?
Or must I bring up the slackers and goldbrickers I ran into on a regular basis who sucked up a paycheck for doing nothing while other people, including me, were busting a hump to get work done?
Must I add that those slackers and goldbrickers were both men and women? And their coffee consumption exceeded the coffee consumption of people who were busy 8 to 10 hours a day?
@14
And I fail to understand what it is that makes anyone automatically assume that women are more subject to stress fractures than men?”
Well, because they are more susceptible statistically: http://www.cs.amedd.army.mil/borden/FileDownloadpublic.aspx?docid=b42d1acd-0b32-4d26-8e22-4a518be998f7
Bear in mind, this with lower physical standards and physical fitness requirements. One can assume that if you increase the requirements; the numbers will most likely go up…
This also coincides with female athletes…
As I understand it, none who graduate will be assigned to infantry. This is a study. The more women who fail, the less stringent will the standards be.
One quibbling point – Jessica Wright retired from the army guard as the TAG of Pennsylvania (2 star) – according to her bio she was the first female aviator in the entire army guard.
http://www.defense.gov/bios/biographydetail.aspx?biographyid=267
FWIW, just noting she’s not just a civilian wonk appointee.
First off, the class started with 15, not 12, or 7. (Attrition is already near 75% and the course is only half done.) It’s down to four, and the ruck march was the first event in the actual Infantry portion. The first four weeks mirrored the course that ALL Marines do after Basic/Boot Camp. http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20131028/NEWS/310280038/Four-female-Marines-pass-key-hurdle-during-enlisted-infantry-training
Secondly, it appears that the APFT standards remain lowered for the remaining four. They’ll have to do *some* pullups, but it does not appear that they’ll have to meet the same APFT standards as males of their age.
PH: I have a lot of respect for you, but noticing that males and females are physically different is not sexism. It is an observation of nature. If we were face to face, I would also make the assumption that we are physically different. You have different parts than I do.
It is also not sexist to notice that men and women like different things. A big bonfire can maintain my attention for hours, but a candle is just a tool for when the electricity goes out. I don’t care too much for most plants that don’t produce food or lumber. Women seem to like flowers. Men that don’t recognize that difference, and get flowers for the women in their lives tend to get in trouble.
In a natural state of affairs, men enjoy burping contests and snicker at their own farts. Women for some reason call that crude. Men have lived under oppression of an unnatural suppression of their natural behavior for decades.
Men and Women ARE different PH. And that’s a good thing.
With all that said, the Women that go through the course will be better Marines, even if they fail. If I were King, ALL military training would be tougher. If I were King, ALL Troops would get the kind of training that is on level and superior to current Infantry training, but the Infantry would get training on par with Rangers. And that training standard would constantly increase.
#6,
Commended for the increase in training? I was an instructor at the School of Infantry (SOI). The combat training that they would normally get is no tougher than what they went through. The infantry training is just longer and has a 20k hike at the end, and goes into a little more detail than the other course.
So the fact that these Marines went on a 20k hike after completing a little more training, and THEN get to go to their MOS school and never use this information again…no. I will NOT commend them.
ANYONE could have passed this training, the hard part is what comes after this school. When you live this life (as a grunt) for the next four years. Everyday. I have been in the infantry for the last 14 years, and if they tell me that females will be in my platoon, great, aye aye sir, and and I will march on…HOWEVER, the mental aspect of this life is the part that I do not believe most women are capable of. BLAH BLAH BLAH hardship of combat…BLAH BLAH BLAH…NO. Our attitude is just different…and the last 3 years, I have worked as an infantry trainer in a logistics group…and working with the females here, most of them would break under the strain of doing this job…HELL, I am almost broke (bad knees, bad back) from doing this job.
So you say we should commend them…I say, WHO GIVES A FLYING RATS ASS!!!
When they are required to shave their heads (like males), do the SAME PFT/CFT (exact same scores and requirements), and have the exact SAME Ht/Weight standards (with BF%) I refuse to see anything a female Marine does as exceptional.
You want equality…then raise yourself to the higher standard.
“With all that said, the Women that go through the course will be better Marines, even if they fail.” Or bear a grudge all their live-long days.
Jonn- I feel the bitchy little girl level is up a but too high on this one and you’re pandering. Again- USMC has upped the requirements for females this year- I don’t believe females should be in the infantry but that doesn’t condone the level of hostility. Dude- every guy coming out of the service isn’t exactly sgt York.
Clearly air cab needs a blow job.
“…more than 80 pounds” is the biggest piece of horseshit in this entire article!
80 pounds is more than is carried during Delta Force selection. Though it started to feel like that much pretty quick in the mountains of West Virginia.
COB6: If they are carrying crew served weapons, that’s about right…stuff ain’t light when we make the students hike it.
When we take over again, some of you will be identified and recommended for the re-re-education camps. The courses will start with something simple. For instance, one that I know is planned is called “Women and men really are different.” Another is, “No, it’s really not okay to put your joy stick in another man’s hangar.”
@25. Got an issue Boo boo? Here I is.
BLUF: Assuming same standard.
If we are to have females in the infantry of any branch. I want the remaining 4 to pass with flying colors. And go on to be hard ass Marines. That is what I expect and my fellow countrymen would agree. Further, I want those 4 to fight against any change in standards. I suspect THEY will be in favor of maintaining the standard by which THEY were measured.
I hope those who want it get it with NO change in standards. Then ship ’em out.
If they are HOT that would be a good thing too.
Just sayin’.
80 pounds in a backpack isn’t all that much.
Izzat so? When’s the last time you humped it for 12 yards, let alone 12 miles?
And no, it’s not what I’d want to hump for what is nearly a half-marathon distance, either.
@25. Hey Boo. Harper Lee wants his character’s name back and I’m tired of waiting for you. So, before I repair to the TV room to watch the World Series, I’ll just say–and I mean this sincerely–go to hell.
60 for 12 is enough to fuck you up. Honestly if you’re tired enough it all feels the same eventually. It’s your joints that take the hit
@31 – SParky, the last time I did that was hiking between work and the train station twice a day, distance was 45 city blocks one way. July 2008. To get a distance of 4.5 miles, 10 blocks = 1 mile. I measured it long ago when I was running after work. Twice a day, snow, rain or shine = 7 miles per day. I did not start with 80 pounds. I started with 15. I ended up with 82 pounds – weighed it. I also did speedwalking in company-sponsored marathons. I hate running. Any questions? Since I know you’re skeptical, I will drag my backpack out of the closet come spring, load it with hard cover books and keep increasing the weight till it hits 80 pounds, and hike with it, come spring. And please remember that I have arthritis in my back and neck, so I will have to be a little more careful than I usually am. And I have to get new hiking boots, too. And yes, I will have someone else weigh it for me. I will take this as a challenge and work on lifting more weight than the 40 pounds of cat litter I usually haul in from the car. 🙂 😛 PPPPPP TN, I’m not arguing your point about women being different from men. I’m just saying that the first thing someone says, invariably, is ‘how many women are medically dumped from stress fractures’, without even considering that there may be men who suffer the same injuries as women. Nobody ever says one word about men getting the same injuries, including sprains and stress fractures, that women get from heavy exercise, when in fact, men do get those injuries. That was my point. I have never, ever said men and women are the same. We aren’t. But where is the justification in pointing the finger at women and speculating on injury dropouts ONLY because they’re women? And that was, in fact, the #1 post up top. And while I’m at it, name THE instance when I have ever said any of you… Read more »
I can’t speak for Delta Selection COB6, but I know damned well I did missions where the ruck alone was in excess of 100lbs. And that did NOT include the LBV, camelback, ammo, Kevlar, or weapon. It was the ruck alone, and that was NOT Delta. And yes, it was officially weighed.
Fortunately, we did not wear ballistic vests in those days.
Air cav. Harper lee is female, too. Just so you know.
PH: I’d rather you didn’t do the ruck thing. Based on other comments you’ve made you’re older than me, and I ain’t gonna start rucking heavy loads again, just to prove I can.
As to the burping and farting, you haven’t ever yelled at me for it, cause ya ain’t never heard me! That’d be a question for the men you’ve allowed in your life.
Yes, men do suffer injuries in training, and for the most hard to attain and hard to pass courses, they do hide those injuries. How I read the comment above was that due to physical differences, women will be more prone to injury than men, under the same standards.
@34- Read my link in @18 as to why women are considered more susceptible to stress fractures…
Look I don’t give a rats ass if any of these chicks graduate SOI or if it causes your nuts to shrivel up and fall off- fact is: these 17 and 18 year old females ( like 17 and 18 year old males before them) have completed 13 week of the worlds’ most difficult boot camp, and are 5 weeks into the finest School of Infantry in the world. I respect any man who’s done it and I respect these females- and if you aren’t big enough to respect them for their courage- that’s your problem. they are just kids who were asked if they wanted to while In boot camp- they did not enlist for SOI – they enlisted to become marines and SOI was offered. These females have made it farther than any of the officer females and they’re not making any kind of damn political statement. They’re just kids who want to serve their country- kinda like you all might have once been. Every kid knows she can’t be in combat- yet she’s doing the school to be better marines. To NOT be that drag on the force you all fear. Some of you remind me of those pencil dicks with the giant fake nuts on your trucks.
Also- Jonn- the third did NOT ELECT to train for another specialty. They ALL WILL GO ON to train in another specialty. SOI is simply a pit stop on the way to their REAL SCHOOLS.
TN – Age is a number. I have been challenged. I will meet it. For pete’s sake, my Nikon weighs 6 pounds. My bags of groceries certainly weigh more than that. My cat Mikey weighs 22 pounds. What is the problem? Am I supposed to sit on my butt and turn into a pile of flubber?
@38 – If you want to argue the point, women play hockey just the same as men, and in the Olympics. Women are in boxing, weight lifting, volleyball, surfing, basketball, soccer, rugby, horseracing, 3-day eventing, track events, marathons, ice skating, etc. All are high-end sports with the same rules and expectations. The women/girls don’t make excuses and they don’t whine about being hurt or quit.
I don’t know what point you were trying to make, but I do know some teenaged figure skaters who could probably pound your ass into the ground for implying that they are weenies. In fact, I think Tonya Harding is available, if you want a challenge.
Boo. Your paint brush is way too wide.
Take 2 Mydol and see your gynocologist after the cramps go away.
Boo, L.M.A.O. 🙂
@41 -I don’t understand the point you are arguing. You made the statement as to being confused as to why women are considered to be more susceptible to stress fractures. I provided you data as to why that is considered the case. I wasn’t arguing anything else.
Btw men/women’s hockey has different rules. No checking in women’s hockey
Then, you turn and say I’m trying to portray women as weenies. I never said any such thing. Read the report I linked which was written by a female doctor,,,
When I was in I once weighed myself with and without just the STANDARD LBE (Kevlar, Flack Jacket, H-Harness, Canteens, First Aid Kit, Pistol (with Holster and Mag Pouch), uniform and boots) The difference was 33 pounds. Add on a pack and you are pushing 70-80 pounds easy. That’s not even a rifleman, SAW Gunner, Grenadier, RTO or Crew-Served Weapon Grunt. At bridgeport our packs weighed in at about 100 Pounds.
The primary reason for medical discharge or recycle during Marine recruit Training is injuries to the knees and below for both sexes. I was worked with a female Sgt Major who had did multiple tours as a DI and she said that even with lower standards the recruit depot went out of it’s way to gloss over the percentage of females who dropped due to stress fractures.
Dang! This went out into left field in a big hurry. Maybe by tomorrow things will have settled a bit? Hope so, because I would be one of those females who has been there, done that a couple of times, and have the injuries to prove it. Would not change a bit of it, but do not like the direction things are going in the name of “equality.”
@44 – You don’t understand the point?
OK, the point is that the first thing pointed at in post #1 is ‘women’, NOT ‘Marines’ dropped/leaving due to stress injuries. Why is it so important to speculate on why so many women dropped and NOT on why so many men dropped?
And for your information, women’s sports, including hockey, are just as rough as men’s. At my rink, all games are ‘no check’ for men and women both, and women are in play with men. If you can skate and run a stick, you can play. They don’t care.
48-Why is so important? I don’t know . But, you made the statement, “I fail to understand what it is that makes anyone automatically assume that women are more subject to stress fractures than men?”
I merely responded to that statement with data that proves that women, as a group, have significantly higher stress fracture injuries. Nothing more, nothing less. Now, if you want to say that it shouldn’t matter if women suffer higher injuries and thats their choice. Fine. But, bear in mind, that a female infantrymen will most likely have much higher statistical chance of suffering a stress fracture injury than a male. It isn’t an absolute..
As far as the Hockey statement. You said olympic hockey. Female Olympic hockey has no checking. Men’s Olympic Hockey has checking. Whatever your coed local “no checking” hockey club does is largely irrelevant to the statement you made.
This is a poorly written article. It doesn’t say if the females are…
…biological females from birth
…biological males who identify as females
…males who identify as females but were raised as males
…females who identify as males but were mistakenly raised as females, got a sex-change to become males but were then “bullied” by an unaccepting world into cross-dressing as females…
…other.
Gotta specify these days. Life just ain’t that simple anymore.