Two more females drop out of Marine’s Infantry Officer Course (UPDATED)
In a link sent to us by beretverde, NBC reports that two more women tried unsuccessfully to graduate from the Marine Infantry Officer Course at Quantico, VA;
Two female officers entered the demanding Marine Infantry Officer Course this week — only the second time in the history of the course that women have been allowed to compete to become ground combat leaders — but neither passed the grueling obstacle course on Thursday, military officials said.
The women made it through the first few days of the course.
Of the 110 students who began the course this week, 96 are still enrolled — the women were joined by 12 of their Marine brothers who also failed to complete the obstacle course entirely or could not complete it in the time allotted.
Yes, it’s a difficult course, even men can’t make it through. There are five other women waiting for the summer course to begin so they can get their shot. I wish them luck, I truly do – as long as they make it through the course and graduate at the current standards. Eventually, I’m sure, a woman will graduate, but I’m also just as sure that the politicians and the sociologists will be doing their best to lower the standards so they can make their numbers.
UPDATED: The New York Times tells a more complete story of the two young ladies. And mentions my concerns;
In Quantico, concerns run deep among some staff members that pressure to accommodate women will lead to a softening of the Marine Corps’ tough standards. Col. Todd S. Desgrosseilliers, commander of the Basic School, which includes the Infantry Officer School and the Basic Officer Course, said that would not happen.
“They are gender-neutral now,” he said of the standards. “They aren’t hard to be hard. These are the things they need to be able to do to be infantry officers.”
Yeah, combat is Go/No Go. There are no minimum standards – only pass-fail. And I wonder if Col. Todd S. Desgrosseilliers has noticed who the Secretary of Defense is for the next four years. I have no doubt that Chuck Hagle would make political points with women’s groups by sending more soldiers to their inevitable deaths with less-than-minimum-standard leaders.
Category: Military issues
How much longer until the standards are “gender normed?”
The USMC got ahead of the curve by allowing women into the course before the politicians actually mandated they do so, which is why they’ve been able to keep the standards and I’d imagine will be able to do so until the “full integration” deadline in 2016. After that, it’s gender norm game on.
Even as they failed, at least they tried — using the original men’s standard. Good on ’em.
I asked my little brother, who used to be a marine with 2nd Recon Battalion at Camp Lejune, about this whole issue a couple of days ago. He just rolled his eyes and said “Rucking 15 miles with an 80 pound load in shitty weather sounds a lot easier and “awesome” than it really is. And then you get four hours of sleep and then you’re up, doing it again.”
He also agrees with my line of reasoning and thinks that they will have to drop standards; he imagines that all these bird colonels at Quantico, Parris Island and Pendleton are feeling the pressure from the star-wearing politicians at the Pentagon who could care less about things like standards or combat effectiveness. And those O-6s want that first star so bad they can taste it, so stand by plummeting standards in the infantry and every other ground combat school in the DoD…
“Rucking 15 miles with an 80 pound load in shitty weather sounds a lot easier and “awesome” than it really is.”
Hogwash.
There are backpackers aplenty, male and female both, who hike into back country carrying that much of a load and sometimes more, depending on how long they plan to be gone. If someone decides to hike the entire lenght of the Appalachian Trail, which runs from Springer Mountain in Georgia to Mount Katahdin in Maine (2,200 miles), he or she is not going to take along nothing more than an extra pair of socks or batteries for the smartphone.
Here’s a little something for people who think women can’t handle the load:
http://www.hikingwomen.net/hiking-women/hiking-women-the-long-trail-vermont
If the Marine Corps really wants to include women in Combat Infantry Training, then they need to make the class half men and half women. Otherwise, it’s baloney.
And for the record, when I was in WAVES boot camp at Bainbridge, we were expected to swim 25 yards underwater nonstop and run a mile in a minimum of 10 minutes. All of us did so.
Civilian hiking vs A tactical road March? Okayyyyyy,,,,,, That’s like saying someone camping out at Yellowstone for two Months went through the same thing as the guys who took Iwo Jima.
I’ll repeat what Iv’e told people over and over and over again. You are not going to find enough studly women in the ranks to justify wasting time sending a percentage of them to Infantry School. There may be a few DAMN few women in this country that could pull it off, and guess what, they probably aren’t in the Military and would never want to go in the military. Another thing, there are women who may be likely candidates who want NOTHING to do with it. They are content being Air traffic controllers, Armorers, or Admin clerks.
It’s not about trying to prove women are equal to men, they are. Half the class female? Thats a joke right. Tell you what, lets Make half of a professional Football team Female, just so you can say they can do it. Let them compete against an all male team using a mixed Gender Squad.Then have about 20 Ambulances lined up.
@5 – I know some very tough (and fast) women from both the backpacking and mountain-biking sides. Carrying an 80 pound pack, however, definitely isn’t the norm. I met quite a few PCT thru-hikers last year, and I think the heaviest pack any of them were carrying was around 35 pounds.
Do I know women who can carry 80 pound loads all day? Yep, sure do. I also know women who can (and have) beat the crap out of men in multi-week bikepacking races like the Tour Divide or the Iditarod Trail Invitational, ultra distance foot races (Mont Blanc, Badwater, etc). The gender gap isn’t an issue for most.
I feel that the genuine worry is that standards will be lowered or altered to accomodate, mainly because there is already a precendent for it. The PT test being a prime example of this. There are plenty of men who can’t pass, but what percentage of women would be able to?
The other worry is that number quotas won’t be met, and women will be forced to transfer their MOS to combat arms. One last thing that was mentioned on here earlier – God help the SGT or SSG who tries to involuntarily separate a female soldier from a combat arms unit.
Ex-PH2; It’s the pace that makes it grueling… and I’m not sayin there aren’t woman who could do it.
Humping a 80 lb ruck while hiking is different from force marching with the same load, under fire, short on sleep and rations, possibly sick or injured and carrying ammo cans, rations or your wounded in each hand.
I always say this, If you believe a woman can be an infantry Marine then go study the battle for Pelilu and put women in the positions of those Men.
The Frozen Chosen in the freezing season, is another scenario to put your women into.
There are women who can do this no doubt but all women cannot and if the standards are lowered and half your Marine’s cannot hump the ruck, stand the pain, starve and thirst, while surrounded with screaming bloodthirsty enemy Grunts all bent on killing “and rape” then your unit is already combat ineffective.
All this is going to do is get a bunch of young men and women killed for some liberal Ideology and feminist pipe dreams.
After the first battle with Co-ed Line companies I can see women being rapidly shuffled off into positions where they won’t be killed, maimed or injured trying to keep up with the male grunts.
We don’t have APC/AAAV that cannot keep up with the tanks and the females will be in the same situation, left behind.
@7 – Men and women both who hike into back country frequently carry 80 or more pounds of food, clothing and gear with them, including water filtration equipment and toilet articles. The only advantage to thru-hikers on trails like the Appalachian Trail is that there are facilities available that will not be available in combat. It has nothing to do with being STUDLY, for pete’s sake.
Tactical road marches? Hikers mover faster because they are not under threat of live fire.
A8 – I agree that the standards will be changed to accomodate women, but the PT standards for men are running a mile in 13.3 minutes and 15 minutes for women. That’s walking pace. Even I can walk faster than that, and I have arhtritis. It’s a great way to keep your weight from creeping up. I also carry a load with me in the form of a pack and loaded camera bag.
I do not think the standards should be lowered, period. YOu either make it, or you don’t. That is the reason I said make ths class half men, half women and see who falls by the wayside.
You Girls need to listen to these men who have been there and done that. BUT, If you decide to go ahead anyway against sound advice and due warnings then, You gals can do what ever it is you feel is best.
But Girls, your gonna wish you had not done this.
Take the gals for a forced march under a load around the wire patrol roads at GITMO with all those climbing hills see what happens.
Good Luck.
oh wow, a mile in 10 min? that was my 2 mile time and i wasnt even close to the top of my airborne infantry platoon. 25 yards underwater is barely worth a response, its less impressive than a 10 min mile. i know women that can out run me with out a problem, now lets grab that 240B, throw a ruck on her back, and see if someone half my size that can out run me can keep pace with the same load i carry. the fact that can not be denied, is that women are smaller then men, their physiology is different, and they are built differently. no ammount of political correctness will change the biological differences between men and women.
@3, i have never claimed that i tried and that was good enough. no one that ever wants to succeed will ever care how hard they tried, only the results matter. How many people “try” Ranger school ever cycle? how many actually make it. Try is a worthless word and has no place in the mouths of any infantryman
I started my military career in the Marine Corps as a radio technician. I am proud to not be a grunt, but I am happy there are those who are willing and able to do that risky, thankless job. We’re not talking about American Gladiator here. Win the contest, collect the cash, and go home. The Infantry Officer Course is only the beginning… a filtering process if you will. In order to succeed now and later requires the proper motivation. Volunteering for arduous duty just to prove you can do it doesn’t sound like a recipe for a successful career.
um where is this mile in 13.3 min standard? i know its been 7 years since i got out, but Army standard was 15:54 2 mile time for men to get the bare minimum to pass. Infantry standard was 270, meaning ya run that 2 mile in 13:41.
explain to me how hikers move faster argument makes any sense what so ever. live fire makes ya move pretty damn fast. ive been hiking since i was young, ive never gone on a hike that moved at EIB pace (infantry standard is 12 miles in 3 hours with packing list weighing 75 lbs)
you make a infantry class half women and it will be a waste of tax dollars and nothing more.
Ah, Smitty, you didn’t get the point, did you?
The USMC CURRENT MINIMUM requirement for running a mile for MEN is 13.3 minutes. For WOMEN, it is 15 minutes.
IN 1967 at RTC (W) Bainbridge, the REQUIREMENT for a one mile run was a MINIMUM of 10 minutes.
Is that loud enough for you, sport?
@12 – Forced march, all those climbing hills at GITMO. Obviously, you’ve never down any back country hikes, loaded or otherwise. So here’s a link to the Appalachian Trail Conservancy’s site, with all sorts of fun things for hikers to plan their routes. It’s hardly a flat road, you see.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/about-the-trail/mapping-gis-data
And here’s one for the Italian Dolomites, again, not a flat road with teashops and loos everywhere.
http://www.hikingwomen.net/hiking-women/hiking-women-alta-via-2-italian-dolomites
@15 – It’s on the Marine Corps’ infantry training website. I looked it up this morning.
USMC minimum PFT (male 18-26) is 28 minutes for 3 miles.
But if you’re looking at minimum, you already aren’t in the proper frame of mind to be a Marine, and especially a grunt.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marines/l/blfitmale.htm
This is the link:
http://www.marines.com/becoming-a-marine/how-to-prepare?nav=LP1
is that the reception time ya have to do a mile in to get into basic? ill believe that for a 13 min,(i think it was 12 min for army in 02) that is setting where you need to be before the infantry (marine or army) break you down, tear you apart, and rebuild you. you are looking at the wrong numbers there my dear. i have been hiking in the toughest conditions around the world. it doesnt come close to comparing to an infantry forced ruck march. I hike for fun, no one rucks for fun.
you are way off on this one ex, getting into basic isnt the standard, the STANDARD for infantry is 90%, or a 270 score on the APFT, 12 miles in 3 hours with a 75 lb ruck, and expert qualifications on all weapon systems. that is what is required, not a 13 min mile, neither the corps or the army will ever have ya run 1 mile after ya leave reception.
and after checking your link, you are a moron! that is the bare minimum to start training, not the standard of the infantry. gonna go out on a limb and say you were never military, so ill break this down for ya. when ya sign up and ship out for basic, ya show up at the place called “reception”. it is a unit for training holds, ya get issued your uniforms and taught how to shave. before ya can “go up the hill”, ya take a super mini PT test, ya have to d just enough to make people think if they torture you enough ya can pace a PT test. apparently for the marines, it means doing 2 pull ups, 44 crunches, and walk a mile with out dying. thyat isnt the standard, thats where you have to be before training starts!!!
Only 75 pounds? Does that include body armor (avg. wt, 68 pounds) and weapons? Or did you forget that part? The overall weight load of a fully-loaded, armored and weapons-carrying setup is about 150 pounds, not 75.
Ex-PH2; That link is for ‘IST’ for enlisted recruits entering boot camp. If they get there and can’t pass these initial requirements, they will go to the ‘Fat Farm; and not be able to start actual boot camp until they do pass.
‘Male and female recruits run the same distances during the run portion of the IST but have different time requirements to complete it. Males must complete the 1.5-mile run in 13:30, while females have 15 minutes to cross the finish line.’
The run portion of the annual PFT is 3 miles and the PFT score is part of your total score when going up for promotion. Minimum scores on your PFT is a big handicap toward advancement.
I know i’m beating a dead horse here, but Infantry Officers need to leading from the front, not the ‘minimum.’
s/b ‘be leading’
first day with my new hands…
“If the Marine Corps really wants to include women in Combat Infantry Training, then they need to make the class half men and half women.” So if the graduation rate is 80% for males, but 20% for females, how is that fair for all of the men who get turned away just so they can keep a slot for a female who will most likely fail?
@22, that 75 lbs is just your ruck sack which as i stated, has a specified packing list that weighs that. i dont know where ya get the idea that an IBA weighs 68 lbs by itself, id put it at maybe 35, add in a balistic load and you still have no frecking idea what you are talking about! you can try to embrace your liberal sensibilities and political correctness all ya want but there are some facts,
1, women are smaller then men, and thus, less equipped for the physicality of the infantry.
2, women have about 50% less upper body strength then men pound for pound, and thus, less equipped for the physicallity of the infantry.
3, women menstrate and this can effect combat readiness. get 100 women together and get them menstrating on the same cycle, now your infantry unit is combat ineffective one week each month.
women in the infantry is a horrible idea, no way around it. IF there were enough women to make it through the infantry basic course, it would still be the bottom of the barrel of infantry units
@26 – They simply increase the number of classes.
@27 – All you want to do is pick a fight and I’m not interested. Go fight with yourself. Women are going into combat infantry training. Deal with it. You won’t be there, will you now?
But to enlighten you just a tad.
Women need to urinate just as men do. Therefore, the use of a She-Wee or a GoGirl is indicated.
Also, women have monthly periods. Therefore, the use of a Diva Cup is safer and more sanitary than tampons or napkins, both of which are non-biodegradable and may leave the use with Toxic Shock Syndrome. And ibuprofen and other prostaglandin blockers alleviate menstrual cramps.
From a “buddy” (enlisted then OCS Marine)… his take on the article-
And this is very early in the training. You needed to be able to max the o-course with an aggressive time or out. Remember these are all already officers with considerable training at this point so entering this means they met minimum standards. The chicks are not cut out hence the alternate PFT so already their standards are sub-par to the boys. Can you imagine a female second Lt plt cmdr?
Always guaranteed laughs when non grunts try to discuss grunt life and/or what’s required. Like all things in the Corps the qualification school is the bare minimum and after that the actual operational requirements only ramp up significantly. Frankly the Corps should be raising the bar to create a more elite force than what it is today. All of this concentration on officer qual as the holy grail of whether or not females can hack actual operational duty as a grunt is misleading beyond belief. It’s not the hardest thing out there and with the corps it’s not a I-completed-this-time-for-a-break affair. It is instead a I completed this grueling shit and I’m now moving instantly into more grueling shit for however long I’m in this MOS. You don’t just get to drop your pack and rest up.
I’ll leave on this last bit of 1st hand experience of when I was a grunt in the gun club. Every Wook(female marine) I’ve met and have talked with would instantly indicate her desire to never have to do that job. It was always “that sucks, I’d never want to be a grunt” when they saw us or heard about our awesome privileged status in the Corps.
No suprise here.
@28 – Like others have said, a tactical forced road march is absolutely nothing like a hike, even a thru-hike, of the AT. For one thing, the temp isn’t 130 in Tennessee. No thru-hiker has a pack weight of 80 pounds. It just doesn’t happen. MAYBE one or two in the history of the AT has been that heavy, but now, anything over 20-25 pounds is considered very heavy. Here’s a link to a gear list of a thru-hiker. 13 pounds and that’s with food and water.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqh886ycFM9kdEs3VnNWTUsxQmJxbWJYdldCTzJ2M0E&hl=en#gid=10
It’s not just road-marches either. I know a few women who could load an 80 pound HEAT tank round in 4 seconds…but not very many.
28 minute three miles? Yeah try pulling that as a PFC in the Grunts, Much less a 2nd Lt. The SLOWEST times I ever witnessed while serving with 3/4 were about 22:30 or so. A non-first class PFTer in the Marine Corps isnt going to have a happy time no matter what MOS they are in.
It’s utterly impossible to describe the shit that grunts do. You can watch all the “Making Marines” and “SEAL training” videos you want. Until you’ve rucked up, Did a MCCRES or CX you don’t know shit about what a Grunt does… and thats just Peacetime.
“increase the number of classes”
Who says they can? Is it really worth it to double the size TRADOC to accommodate a small percentage of mediocre performers.
I’m not surprised that the marine officer course is so hard. I was always told that if an Army officer wished to make infantry a career, then Ranger School was mandatory. I don’t know if there is a comparable course for Marines.
@30-remember the fun days of the MCCRESS hump? 25 miles, 8 hours 45lbs ruck PLUS crew served weapons. Good times. Now if exPH2 can show me females that can keep up, we can talk opening infantry to women. And before exPH2 says “Well you won’t be there” yes I will be there. Because I’m still wearing a uniform. Now for a more current example. Nov 2009 prepping for Iraq. Took the company out for a little motivational 8 miler. Basic load (IBA w/SAPI, weapons, water and 20lbs assault pack). Out of 20 females in the company (all under 30) guess how many kept up with my 45 y/o 2 pack a day smoker ass? 0.
Comrades in Arms: I’ve got a couple of reactions to this, which I hope I can somehow properly express in words. But, I probably better give my caveats and/or disclaimers. First of all, I am an old man. In my mind, I can still remember a United States of America, a United States Army, and even our Christian faith, which no longer exist, and which in our “politically correct” contemporary society cannot even be longingly referred to with nostalgia. I remember when, just after the war in Viet Nam, the Women’s Army Corps was dissolved as women were gradually assigned to the previously all male Signal Corps (and other branches) of the United States Army. It did cause problems, because mundane daily chores such as motor stables (i.e., required daily inspection and maintenance of vehicles) increased the physical burdens on men who were forced to work with women on the same radio team. Of course, that inconvenient fact was not openly acknowledged by any career personnel in the United States Army. I’ve seen female commissioned officers at formal parades leading Infantry units, specifically, the “Old Guard” of the Third Infantry Regiment. I’ve seen, in real life or in photographs, female drill sergeants in Basic Combat Training, female tactical instructors at the Airborne School, female combat medics, female military police, female combat aviators, and/or female sailors on ships of war. I don’t know how to prove the validity of this, my own personal opinion, but, I consider it unnaturally demeaning and humiliating for male warriors to be compelled to take orders from a female. I consider it especially immoral and perverted that many of these females are mothers who abandon their children to someone else’s care while they deliberately choose to be deployed into harm’s way. Many long years ago, somebody told me that there were only two reasons why females join the Armed Forces, i.e., they like men, or they do not like men. A gal living here at the Armed Forces Retirement Home argues that Russia and Israel have had success with females serving in the Infantry. But, from… Read more »
Well now, well now. You guys still don’t get it, do you?
I learned a VERY long time ago that what you want and what the military wants are two entirely different things. I learned it the hard way.
This program is not an experiment to see how women will do. It is what is coming down the road. If there aren’t enough female combat infantry volunteers, the military as a group — meaning all services, including the Army, Navy and Marines — will select candidates and put them into that training program, willy nilly.
And yes, the standards and requirements will be changed to accomodate incoming females who are there whether they want to be or not.
The military doesn’t give a crap about what you want or think. It doesn’t a care about your opinions or desires. It wants what it wants and you are nothing but bodies to fill slots. If you haven’t figured that out by now, that’s your curse. You can look at it as an exclusive boy’s club all you want to, but the military no longer sees it that way.
Go ahead. Complain all you want to. Put up all the arguments you want to. Be as smug about it as you like. The reality of it is that this is the start of it, and it pisses all of you off that you can’t do a thing about it, so don’t pick a fight with me, because I don’t care what you think.
All you’re doing is wasting time complaining about something that you don’t like, and the military doesn’t give a flying fart in space what you think.
@37.
You are correct.
I am smug.
Yeah, GT, but you’re fun, too.
Again … prove it in school and in the field and it is all good with me.
Until then, give it to me like IDF and I won’t be so worried.
Sorry, that IS the way I see it:
http://www.google.com/search?q=idf+females&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=hsFYUbXxKcKU0QHHqoDACA&sqi=2&ved=0CEYQsAQ&biw=1120&bih=535
What’s the next stunt, lowering the amount of weight that a female in a Light Infantry Unit will be required to carry? Reduced distances?……..
For me, this article (which already got some time on this website when it came out) pretty much says it all. So if you don’t believe the ex- and current grunts on this website, listen to Capt Petronio, she lays out how reality has a nasty way of reminding us that men and women are different:
http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal
But like the captain says, this issue is being driven by issues that have nothing to do with combat effectiveness and will get people killed and crippled for no good reason.
I feel kind of bad for Petronio, in a way, she wrecked her body serving her nation and then goes public by writing an article that doesn’t fit the feminist narrative. I can only imagine some of the emails she got for that article when it got published by the NY Times…
PH2–let’s put it another way. Doing the MINIMUM in Marine PFT will ensure one thing–FAILURE. I know this because we were required to do Marine PFTs, and if you do the minimum of 3 miles in 28 minutes, 3 pull-ups, and 40 sit-ups, you will NOT have enough points to pass.
I used to run marathons. I’ve done the Pendleton Mud Run for shits and giggles in under 55 minutes. Hell, I can still pull a 10K in under 50 minutes on hilly roads, and I’m pushing 50.
But I harbor no illusions about my fitness to be a grunt, even 30 years ago. I MIGHT have been able to handle it, but as with all things in life, there’s WANTING to do it, then there’s ABLE to do it.
How about this–do we put all people into Nuke School just because they think they “deserved” to be nukes, regardless of their line scores or basic abilities? We have STANDARDS, and we have them for a reason. It’s to ensure we the taxpayer aren’t spending money we have precious little of on people who simply aren’t going to make it through the pipeline, or won’t make it in sufficient numbers to be ECONOMICALLY viable.
Every spot we waste on someone who is almost certain to wash out is a spot that could have been given to someone with a far greater chance of success.
Oh, and for the record, when I went to boot at Great Mistakes it was 2 1/4 miles in 18 minutes. Again, that was nearly 30 years ago. It hasn’t gotten much if any easier since.
“If the Marine Corps really wants to include women in Combat Infantry Training, then they need to make the class half men and half women.” Which half will be men, the top half or the bottom? Personally, I prefer that the women be the bottom half. You can always cover up the top half. Who wants boobs with male genitalia? Huh? What’s that? He meant half of the class will be…Oh. Never mind then.
Sparky, you were over in Viet Nam.
How many Vietnamese women flirted with you? Huh? You never heard of the ‘long hair troops’?
While they were cleaning the barracks, they were counting the number of beds in actual use from one week to the next, the number of lockers in use in each barracks, just how big the buildings were, where everything — including munitions and warehouses — everything was on a base and when supplies were brought in and when they were loaded on planes going north. The most damaging thing those women had was the information in their heads.
VC women dug tunnels, acted as tunnel rats, nurses, supply carriers, fired artillery, shot at GIs, built and buried booby-traps and homemade mines and roadside bombs right alongside VC men, and got information out of GIs because the VC knew from decades of experience exactly how much gender bias exists in Western culture, and they took advantage of it.
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/tayvie.html
And they didn’t care one tiny bit how fast the women could or could not run. Their approach was far more subtle. While you were complaining about squid chips the boomboom girls ate the way we eat tortilla chips, the girls were counting how long and how many beers it took to get you drunk enough to spill information that you would not otherwise give away.
Just out of curiosity, how many miles do you expect anyone to run on an aircraft carrier? Or a destroyer? Or in a sub?
AirCav: LAME!
PH2–no, I wasn’t. But your comparison, as much as you want it to, doesn’t wash.
And two major bones about your example–1–the North Vietnamese knew we would treat our captives according to the Geneva Conventions, while they would not be held to such standards, and 2–the casualty rate they suffered is many times what this country has ever had to endure in any conflict. Don’t think for one second this nation is willing to endure the sheer numbers that we have inflicted upon our enemies.
Finally, 1.5 miles twice a year with pushups and situps, same as always, but again, if you were “doing the minimum” you weren’t going to do very well. As others have said, evals do take PRT/PFT scores into consideration. And we tried to stay in shape on the boat as much as possible, if only to alleviate boredom, etc. We also had a lot of physical work which required us to stay in fairly decent shape. Being a nuke ain’t exactly a desk job, but it’s not being in combat arms either.
@ EX-PH2 … as long as they can do it (train and perform in the field) and they are easy on the eyes (great for morale) … let them all in!
MCPO: check mail, amigo. And good luck.
Rog got it thanks!