Two more females drop out of Marine’s Infantry Officer Course (UPDATED)
In a link sent to us by beretverde, NBC reports that two more women tried unsuccessfully to graduate from the Marine Infantry Officer Course at Quantico, VA;
Two female officers entered the demanding Marine Infantry Officer Course this week — only the second time in the history of the course that women have been allowed to compete to become ground combat leaders — but neither passed the grueling obstacle course on Thursday, military officials said.
The women made it through the first few days of the course.
Of the 110 students who began the course this week, 96 are still enrolled — the women were joined by 12 of their Marine brothers who also failed to complete the obstacle course entirely or could not complete it in the time allotted.
Yes, it’s a difficult course, even men can’t make it through. There are five other women waiting for the summer course to begin so they can get their shot. I wish them luck, I truly do – as long as they make it through the course and graduate at the current standards. Eventually, I’m sure, a woman will graduate, but I’m also just as sure that the politicians and the sociologists will be doing their best to lower the standards so they can make their numbers.
UPDATED: The New York Times tells a more complete story of the two young ladies. And mentions my concerns;
In Quantico, concerns run deep among some staff members that pressure to accommodate women will lead to a softening of the Marine Corps’ tough standards. Col. Todd S. Desgrosseilliers, commander of the Basic School, which includes the Infantry Officer School and the Basic Officer Course, said that would not happen.
“They are gender-neutral now,” he said of the standards. “They aren’t hard to be hard. These are the things they need to be able to do to be infantry officers.”
Yeah, combat is Go/No Go. There are no minimum standards – only pass-fail. And I wonder if Col. Todd S. Desgrosseilliers has noticed who the Secretary of Defense is for the next four years. I have no doubt that Chuck Hagle would make political points with women’s groups by sending more soldiers to their inevitable deaths with less-than-minimum-standard leaders.
Category: Military issues
exPH2 pardon us grunts for relying on personal experience but it’s the only kind of experience we have. As opposed to theories or opinion.
Sparky, I accept your point, but you have to remember that the VC had far more dedication to getting rid of foreign governments than we had toward fighting the communists in the 1960s. Their history goes back generations. All we have is anecdotal memories, most of which seem to be fading fast. Aside from 9/11/01, when was the last time the US was attacked on US soil? War of 1812, after that Pearl Harbor, 1941. That’s it. The Vietnamese had long generational memories of conflict.
Whether or not we become willing to accept great losses will depend on what happens next and where, and I doubt it will be in the Middle East.
Master Chief, thanks. If the Navy had put women in Combat Camera Groups, I’d have gone into one, and yes, I knew what I would be facing. I talked to guys coming back from there. Now, I would say ‘no, thanks’. I’m too old for that stuff.
@51 – It isn’t theory or opinion, it’s a simple fact, that things are changing. Nobody likes change. It’s annoying, it’s uncomfortable, it’s the loss of the familiar. Everything about it stinks. It’s not going to be the way it used to be ever again.
I don’t even like it when the whiz kids at MSN change my front page or my e-mail. It isn’t necessary. The old e-mail was fine. This e-mail can’t keep up with my typing speed. It’s not up to MY standards. I don’t like the change. And I can’t do anything about it because it’s a done deal.
The military is doing the same thing. That’s not a theory or an opinion or a possibility, it’s going on now, and just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it will stop for you or anyone else. This is the way it’s going to be, like it or not, and if you don’t like it, the military will move on without you, leaving you with your memories and experience and not much else. They don’t care about anything but their own agenda. You’ll just get left by the wayside.
The same thing applies to cars. I don’t like the electronic junk that comes with new cars now. It’s stuff I don’t want. I detest the GPS system that talks to you, especially if you can’t shut it off. So what am I supposed to do? Go without a car? No. I find a way to turn off the stupid, annoying GPS voice and drive the car.
Look, nobody likes change. It takes away the familiar and leaves you stranded, even if you knew it was coming. So whatever is coming in the military has nothing to do with you personally, and if you don’t like the changes, they’ll hire someone else in your place. And, yeah, it is that simple. They just don’t care.
I had a master chief that used to say women are great for the military… They should be a reward for the high achievers. Get a chit from your supervisor for excellent work, and go check one out at the USO for the weekend. Hmmmm… Was that you who said it MCPO NYC???
Seriously, while they will probably drop the requirements for women to pass, that will also drop the readiness. How many good men and now women need to needlessly die in order for the politicians and numbnut brass to realize you don’t lower standards on a front line infantry unit? Oh wait, GI Jane is on… Gotta run….
@53-all of those changes you mentioned improved the function or productivity of the product. How will women in combat arms increase the ability of the US military in its primary mission? Quite simply it won’t. Has the we’ve lost any wars because we didn’t have female infantry, tankers or gun bunnies? No. This is being done simply to appease a vocal demographic.
@55 What part of ‘the military doesn’t give a crap’ is so hard to understand?
Ex-PH we arent saying it isnt going to happen, we are saying it will be an utterly miserable failure of an experiment. it is a mistake that many young men will pay for with their lives all so that some washed up hippies that found their way into DC with no military expirience can claim they are being politically correct. We, who are/were grunts, know what is expected and what must be done. we also know that allowing anyone, male or female, to get by with substandard PT scores (or women’s standards) in the infantry will compromise the unit’s combat effectivness! Yes, women are being allowed into the infantry, but it is a stupid idea spurred on by politics with total disregard for the lives it will cost.
as for GI Jane, the true story isnt like the movie. the chick couldnt pass anything on the men’s standard, so a women’s standard was introduced for her, she still failed everything. She petitioned her congressman to get her back into the class and she then failed everything again. but that, like your ideas, isnt PC. would ya like to know a secret? the infantry isnt PC either.
@44. Ex-PH2. Lame? Hereafter, I’ll try harder to comport to your standards. Sounds like you need a break.
Air Cav, Ex-ph doesnt seem to understand that what you posted is the mildest of comments to expect from any grunt and it is what we consider humor. i thought it was pretty damn funny. once women finally get into the infantry (i dont think it has been stressed enough that basic/AIT is the easiest part of the infantry) we will see alot of sexual harrassment complaints about that type of humor.
Smitty, PLEASE do not ever bring up that Dipstick “i-can-do-everything-even-if-i-can’t-manage-my-life” Moore. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. I can’t stand people like her. I will only echo what you said: it’s coming, like it or not, and you who are still in-service will have to deal with it.
AirCav – LAME = If you address me as ‘he’ one more time, I will pull the hair out of your nose with a pair of kitchen tongs. And I will not give you a kleenex when your nose bleeds. I am not, and never have been, a ‘he’. 😛
Ex-PH2: I lifted the quote from BohicaTwentyTwo at cmt 26. I was not referring to you. I am well aware that you are not a he or a him. At least now I understand where the pissedoffedness came from. Make love not war. Peace. Flower power.
i truely feel for those still in service. im starting to think the best thing that ever happened to me was breaking my back
AirCav, all is forgiven.
Smitty: Sexual harrassment? Oh, please! I went into the Navy in the 1960s. This bunch of contemporary soldiers/sailors, etc., can’t hold a candle to the crap I and my counterparts in the WAVES had to put up with from sailors back then. Not even close. Give me a break. I’m just glad my mother told me to grow a thick skin.
people dont grow thick sking anymore, they make complaints
Yeah, that’s just a damn shame, isn’t it? Whining instead of facing it and dealing with it.
I don’t see the changes as a necessary or a good thing. I only see them as inevitable.
@56 I completely understand that “the military doesn’t give a crap” technically it’s the politicians in uniform that don’t give a crap. they just keep currying favor with the politicians who don’t wear a uniform. But the “military”, the people who do the actual “make asinine policies work” do give a crap. And I know I can be replaced. good luck replacing 27 years of experience in infantry and armor with 19 y/o Suzy Rottencrotch trying to make it in the infantry on “revised” standards
I guess in the modern DoD, the bean counters have figured out it’s a lot cheaper to fill a body bag than to keep someone out of one.
And yeah, I’m afraid to see what will happen the first time women are in front-line combat units being dragged through the streets like Mogadishu or some other Third World shithole.
SA violations will go through the roof.
I can only add that you guys should some day make the acquaintances of some of the NPs, PAs, nurses and female hospital corpsmen who were in the thick of it in Vietnam and more recently in the Middle East.
And FWIW, I don’t think the next location will be in the Middle East.
PH2…it wouldn’t surprise me if it were, but then again, I can think of half a dozen places which wouldn’t really surprise me if the baloon went up there, and North Korea is too easy, and not going to be next, although close.
Sparky, I read (over the weekend) that Lil Kim is modeling himself after his grandfather Big Kim, instead of after his daddy Medium Kim.
It might not last very long, but because he’s threatening to shut down the Kaesong factory complex, he’s anteing up to doing something besides posturing. If he does start something, I will not be surprised. Russia and China both have something to lose if Lil Kim oversteps himself.
However, what I see with Iran’s buildup is an equally itchy trigger finger.
Maybe those two – Norkland and Iran – just think we’re as weak as we appear.
The most troubling thing to me is the way these women are selected. They pick the best of the best from Marine officers wanting to go through OIC. It’s very competitive for the men, but the women get thrown in for simply volunteering to try and make it. Those 4 women who have failed are four male officers who may have made it. This experiment is taking potentially well- qualified male infantry officers away from the infantry. I would rather have one male officer make it than have one female officer try to make it. Essentially, one can assume at least 2 males out of those 4 spots taken could be infantry officers. I was Marine infantry for 8 years. Officers are important. Experimenting with this kind of BS will only hurt others. It needs to stop.
Ex-ph, there is a huge difference between working a hospital as a nurse or PA and treating the injuries that come in, and being front lines. i want to know if this inclusion is going to mean female medics attached to the infantry companies too. my medic in ’04 iraq was a giant of a man named Doc King, at one point, i watched him carry two guys ont of a fire fight, one on each shoulder, and dragged a third at the same time, all this while my bullets were flying over his head. if women are going to be line medics attached to infantry, i want them able to complete that feat.
Smitty: of course it will mean that.
Mind, I never said lower the standards. I would object to that for female firefighters, because they have to be able to carry a load out of a burning building and man the hoses, just like the men and if they can’t hack it, then they should not be firefighters.
This is different. I do not think the standards should be changed, but they will be.
@73 Smitty, the Army is already assigning females to infantry units as medics, whether or not they end up on the line is up to the Med PSG, usually.
Females ought have their own units so they can strutt their abilities. Carry food, water, ammo, motor rounds, machine gun ammo, 30 pounds of c-4 and a couple thoughts sand rounds of 5.56mm, three to six hand grenades rifle and 15-20 loaded magazines. And any personal stuff all day, no sleep, stand watches all night and get 3-5 hours sleep maybe, then do it over and over, and over…. Then the bad guys show up and kill your butt, because you were so tired , depressed, and wanting that job in the rear with the gear back……
Been there done that, I vote to let the females do it all, I like the life at base camp
Females ought have their own units so they can strutt their abilities. Carry food, water, ammo, motor rounds, machine gun ammo, 30 pounds of c-4 and a couple thousand rounds of 5.56mm, three to six hand grenades rifle and 15-20 loaded magazines. And any personal stuff all day, no sleep, stand watches all night and get 3-5 hours sleep maybe, then do it over and over, and over…. Then the bad guys show up and kill your butt, because you were so tired , depressed, and wanting that job in the rear with the gear back……
Been there done that, I vote to let the females do it all, I like the life at base camp.
I vote to let the females do all combat zone infantry operations, patrols, and outposts.
Maybe I will get a stateside base job in supply. Hot food, plenty of rest, and no one trying to kill me all day and night.
Never liked hunting, or camping anyway.
Way to spam
I hate spammers. They just jump on a random forum and actually think someone wants their coasters handcarved out of fossilized dogshit.
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I think these women Marines are certainly carrying their own weight in the field.