Hazing and the military
From an article in Stars and Stripes:
It was late December 2011 and Pfc. Thomas Nguyen, 20, had just landed at Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo, where members of his Georgia National Guard unit were taking part in peacekeeping operations. Inside the tactical operations center, after a few questions about his predeployment training, Nguyen’s first sergeant gestured toward the wooden board and told the young private that waterboarding was a training requirement in the field.
Was it a lighthearted joke or meant to instill fear?
While no attempt was made to torture the private, the insinuation was enough to convince senior Army leaders that 1st Sgt. Brett R. Paul had committed a crime.
Does that seem a bit…..thin to you? It certainly did to the commander of the unit.
“I don’t believe these things they were accused of rose to the level of court-martial,” Lt. Col. Joe Lynch, commander of the Georgia’s 3rd Squadron, 108th Cavalry Regiment, told Stars and Stripes.
“Was there some inappropriate behavior? I think there was. There was some college prank type stuff.”
The push to prosecute three soldiers, all of whom faced potential prison time, was an unprecedented overreaction by senior Army leaders, Lynch said.
“I’ve never seen this level of reaction to what is essentially an EEO (Equal Employment Opportunity) complaint,” he said. “We chose the nuclear option when we could have chosen small-arms fire. We as leaders failed our soldiers on this one.”
I got busted for hazing at The Citadel, and I have brands on my arm, so perhaps I’m not the most objective one to discuss this. But these guys got in trouble for gesturing at a board and saying the private would be waterboarded? Messing with privates was a rite of passage. Every grunt I ever met sent the newbies off to find a box of grid squares or some squelch for the PRC-E6.
So, what level does it go from prank to hazing? I don’t know, but I would have had a hard time finding for the prosecution here I think.
Category: Politics
I think it becomes hazing once he actually IS waterboarded. Messing with someone mentally does not hazing make.
FTR – Having been deployed there in 2007, I can definitively say that waterboarding was NOT part of the training! LOL!
I told a dude at basic training that all the shots are ok, but the innoculation you get to the left testicle hurts like hell. He tried to quit that day. Hazing, or me trying to weed out a pansy?
I guess in today’s sensitive military, it would be considered emotional torture!
BTW – just sent you an email.
M-16 not firing properly? Jamming and stove-piping?
Send the person to the Drill Sergeant for a can of CO2 … because … well … the M-16 is a gas operated weapon system, and the gas needed recharged so the bolt would cycle properly.
—-
I did that in basic. Got my ass royally chewed out by my Drill Sergeant in public. Then later on Fire-Guard he came and talked to me and was laughing about it. Said that was the best one yet and asked if I was a military-brat, which, obviously, I was.
We did squelch, grid squares, and roll up the flight line too. Funny shit.
Holy **** stick, what a bunch of nut jobbing pussies. Hazing is what JO’s do to us with their power point presentations. That has taken more years off my life than my Chief’s Initiation. The Chinese are going to clean or clocks in the next big one. Get your roaches ready, they will be the only safe thing to eat if we want to win that war.
@TSO – When were you at El Cid? I was class of ’98, L Co.
@6 – ’92, Romeo and Delta. The class 1 offenses (hazing, arrested drunk riding coburg cow naked etc) led to a paradigm shift in my company affiliation. Along with the 300+ tours I walked over my years there.
Great place to be from, but my time there was less than the highlight of my life. I did somewhat enjoy walking the checkerboard though.
“Nguyen testified that he then did an Internet search on the term waterboarding and upon learning its meaning, felt threatened and began keeping a journal, which was later submitted as part of Nguyen’s equal employment opportunity complaint.” Yep, that’s what any soldier in today’s Army would do, I suppose. Keep a journal to make a case for EEO. Right. Jeez.
“[Lt. Gen.] Hertling said he can’t account for why the case resulted in two acquittals and one partial acquittal.”
Oooh! Pick me! Pick me! I know! I know!
“Okay, go ahead.”
Common freaking sense!
I can attest that this unit had plenty of issues long before they made it to Kosovo. That being said, I guess some of the stuff I pulled as a young E-5 would make me a walking Army Times story waiting to happen.
Listen:
I have been initiated from forward to aft, port and starboard, through the dim lit night into the wee hours of the morn. Does it suck … yes … is it a neccessity … well I don’t know. It is about humility and understanding it by feeling it. Tradition is also an importnat part of such ceremonies.
Now on to abuse and torture. Any initiation ritual that closes in on the aforementioned is criminal, shall not be tolerated and needs to be managed appropriately.
I have scene brutual rights of passage, initiations, and other such procedures. I have never abused anyone, however I have recieved some brutual treatment that some would procecute others for.
Having said that, here as a few things you don’t do:
– Slam a large wooden mallet into the chest of a young man.
– Blood wings, crows, pins and the like.
– Punching in a gauntet where punches are coming in from 360 degrees (kidney punches).
– Sexual matter of any manner.
– Reducing a servicemember to tears in an attempt to push over the edge (training and tears of joys excluded).
– Water boarding and other suffication methods.
– Denial of food and water.
– Forced feeding and consumption of alcohol.
I have recieved all of the above and found zero value in the rituals.
I am an Initiated:
– Boiler Techician and Hole Snipe
– Laker
– Rugger
– AOH Degrees
– Petty Officer Promotions
– Order of the Hump
– Shellback
– INITIATED CPO and Proud of It
– Classified Initiations (Black OPS, Triple Secret, Undisclosed Locations with Secret Squirrels)
– Dance of the Flaming Arsehole Across the Length of a Bar at a Secret Location … Wink … Wink … (still deciding what value was in that)
– And many other senceless acts of stupidity and joy
OK MCPO, let me tell you about PLDC, and you tell me if you think we violated hazing rules.
The game was to pull your junk out, and if the dude looked at your junk, you got to punch him. If he didn’t look, but he knew what you were doing, he punched you. So, as I showed a guy the map, and then pulled it away to show my massive schlong underneath, if he gazed, he got punched.
Now, Juvenile. OH HELL YEAH. But criminal?
I would love HeadhunterSix to weigh in, because the gay chicken game had a lot of potentially troublesome issues.
I weep for the future of the military. Anyone taking bets on how long before the ‘hurt feelings report’ form becomes a real thing?
If the guy (or girl) isn’t getting physicially hurt or truly terrorized..and this half-ass “oh waterboarding is part of our training” shit doesn’t cover it..if they’re not being truly hurt, it’s not hazing. It’s a necessary component of micro-societies.
It brings the person into the fold. It’s the good natured humor that says “you belong with us now”. It’s also an invaluable training gauge. Is the person hot-headed? Are they stupid? Seeing a person in an embarassing situation can tell you a lot about their character. If they don’t flip out, if they catch on relatively quickly, if they don’t bear a grudge, that tells you a lot about how they’ll handle stressful situations.
And as mentioned, as an initiation, it builds a sense of community.
If they’re not getting hurt, it’s not hazing. And maybe ole Nguyen isn’t cut out for the service if the mere hint of a threat of waterboarding was enough to cause such lasting psychological damage.
gay chicken game brings back memories. The “massive schlong” remark is dangerously close to stolen valor.
Not making excuses for the lad (or the 1stSgt for that matter), but it seems to me that perhaps the environment at the unit prior to arrival at Bondsteel may come into question. The problem with cases like this is that you never know what the young soldier/airman/marine/sailor is thinking or how he/she will react to such situations. As a matter of the “rule of law”, I agree that the commander’s reaction may have been a little over the top, given the circumstances. Sounds like a “zero-tolerance” approach here. Kids these days are SOOOO sensitive – so much to the point that no matter what you say or do (or DON’T) can get any leader in trouble. When I was promoted and went through other “fraternal rites of passage”, I understood it was exactly that – a time honored tradition… Nothing more – but times have changed.
TSO
Did you give him the 8 digit grid coordinate so he could find it?
To the chagrin of many, I was IN.
That being said, when I was a young private, I got hazed all of the time.
It only stops when you punch your hazer in the jaw. Or in the case of senior NO’s (turds if they are hazing), stand up to them.
This is pussy shit. I do not believe in hazing, per se, but it used to be a right of teambuilding and passgae.
In the “new and improved” Army, we treat everyone equal and with respect. We do not teach young men to grow up and stand on their own.
That is one of the reasons certain areas of the military have slid in recent years. No character or backbone. Guts is not only about engaging the enemy, it is about standing up for yourself without whining.
TSO not to highjack your question, but anything to do with junk is very dangerous area. What if your newbie was sexually assualt as a child. How do you think that game would go off. I know I would be punching no matter what the rules. When the Mess tried to have me Bob on Bob(Master Chief knows what that is) I was in all out fight mode ready to take on 40 guys, with blood in my eyes. As you may have already figured out, I was one of the lucky kids with that “Special Uncle”.
P.S. Did not get to kill him, Bone Cancer did, nice and slow. Spit on him at the wake though told him to burn in HELL.
Had a rather resourceful n00b PFC, when sent to our sister company for 5gal of rotor wash return with a 5 gal can of “propeller wash” from the nearby fixed wing unit. It was all we could do not to bust out laughing before we sent him off for the left-handed torque wrenches.
Creative little SOB, gotta give him that. Even managed to walk into a secure area (MI Aerial Exploitation Bn ramp) without getting jacked up by anybody to obtain said “prop wash”.
@18, I totally get that. And I think people need to be cognizant of their surroundings and such. I’m just not a big fan of going the criminal route for things that go down between soldiers in a social sense.
…and ya, that is pretty lame to prosecute someone for that. If they’d actually strapped him to the board then it’s a different matter. I got worse on my high school swim team than I ever got in the Army…
As the Maintenanace officer in an armor unit I sent the new LTs checking for soft spots on their tanks.
No one stopped them.
Entire platoons with white chalk Xs.
XO wasn’t happy. So I guess it was hazing.
Damn NCOs. What ever happened to protecting your officers.
>:-)
@18.
The exception does not the rule make. Our boy did not even know what waterboarding is. He testified that he looked it up on Google and THEN felt threatened–so he started keeping a jhournal for his EEO case. Maenwhile, Lt. General Political Correctness was shocked that there were acquittals and didn’t understand it. The first sergeant never toucxhed the lil’ fella and only gestured to a board. This is just bizarre. I would last 2-3 hours in today’s Army. I’ll go graze with the other dinosaurs now.
Agreed, best leadership is at the lowest levels. City boy from the North East, not a big fan of courts. Soldiers fight let the Sargents square it away. That is why they get the big bucks.
@ 11 TSO … No that is fine … and good training too ….
BTW .. this is an important conversation. We can’t loose sight of our traditions and ceremonies. At the same time we must police our troops. I presided over 21 CPO Initiations and what is now called “Rights of Passage or Transition”. Ten of those I was the ranking man. When I made Chief, I was “Initiated”. When the rules were changed, I doubled down, read the rules, and played inside the rules, but made the events even more stressful, hard, physically challenging, and useful in terms of training.
Tell me more about the gay chicken … sounds fun!
Osan AB, Korea, 1986. 6903rd ESG. We had this thing if you were new to the unit where your flight invited you out on a ville run. It was called a “Green Bean”. You weren’t allowed to pay for any of your own drinks and if someone said, “A toast to the Green Bean!”, you had to finish off whatever was in your cup or bottle. Finally, people would start “going to the bathroom” or “going off to dance” and, before you know it, a very drunk Green Bean was left alone in a strange bar in a strange country. If you were lucky you managed to find the main gate before curfew. I don’t know but I’m betting that practice is no longer allowed.
@27
I was at Kadena 84-86 and we had a much safer but still effective ritual with the New Guys. The 1st shirt or whatever top level NCO would hand the new guy an envelope and give him a govt vehicle and say, “Deliver this to the 1st Sergeant at the Security Forces Squadron”. You do not have clearance to look at it so do not open this envelope. If you do, I will know. So new troop shuffles off to the SFS 1st shirt. SFS looks at the envelope, signs off and then sends New Troop to Chow Hall Manager. This goes on all day. Comm Squadron. CBPO (Personnel) Maintenance, Supply etc. The message in the envelope says “This is a new troop…send him on an even longer errand to a Base Office that hasn’t already signed off here and then whoever has him at the end of the duty day, send him home.
New troop gets to know his way all over the base in one day and then everyone laughs at him at the end of the day when the message is read to him. Pretty unique thing I thought our squadron did.
#4 & #7: El Cid ’63, Delta Co. Hazing? I’m shocked! Shocked!
Working in Supply for an INF unit, I’ve had my share of FNGs coming for everything from a left-handed monkey wrench to chemlight batteries (which they actually have now… shocked the shit out of me… damn LED chemlights). However, that is just part of the game. It teaches them that they don’t know squat.
However, as a member of that INF Co., I have also been blood pinned when I made E5. It hurt like hell, but I didn’t even whimper. I took the punch, stomped on my sham shields, and got back in line. Why? The pain was to remind me of my responsibilities.
I don’t know if that was or was not hazing. It seems like togay, if you yell at a PVT, it is considered hazing. I remember having to jump out from behind a HMMWV that was backing up without a ground guide. When it came to a stop, I was right beside the driver door. I politely asked the E2 where her ground guide was. At that point, her buddy showed back up with two cups of Starbucks.
I told the female driving that for the rest of the day, she was not allowed to walk forward. If she traveled anywhere, it was backwards with her buddy ground guiding her. The little… E2 actually attempted to file an EEO complaint on me. When I told the EEO NCO why I had assigned the punishment, she laughed and told the Private that if she wanted to go through with the EEO complaint, it would be dropped and she would receive an Article 15 for safety standards violation. Yeah, because of that, the rest of the drill weekend, she never walked forward unless it was in the latrine.
There is a difference between hazing, having some fun at the expense of another, and corrective actions. Unfortunately, with the McGeneration, all three are considered hazing if they feel it is unnecessary or humiliating. Personally, if they can’t take a joke (or a punishment), then they should never have raised their hands in the first place.
I got nailed with the M203 blank adaptor as a young buck. Spent about 2 hours looking for one. Good times.
Flagwaver, I had a CO that after he put your new rank on your ACUs he would give you a punch in the chest. At least he did until one of my guys decided to hang an ESAPI plate under his shirt.
Hazing is not just grid squares and cans of bulkhead remover…
I used to get my balls smoked for no other reason than NCO’s got bored.
I got used to it.
Physical discipline is a bitch.
MCPO: there’s a short definition of “gay chicken” here:
http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=29632
Oh … that is tame … “Underway Chicken Wrestling” is the real deal!
There is a fine line between good natured joking and hazing. This doesnt seem to be hazing in my opinion. But, I will say this: the kid is of Vietnamese heritage, judging by the last name, and any senior NCO who follows the news should know there have been reports of hazing vs Asian soldiers…not saying its true, but the perceptions out there, and as an NCO, you might want to take an extra moment to make sure you dont do anything to perpetuate that…that being said, this should hae been handled in house.
I crossed into the Northern Domain of the Polar Bear many moons ago, part of the “ceremony” was mildly disgusting but far from abusive. As far as other rites of passage – I never did find a set of wire stretchers.
Once sent a guy out looking for a blank adapter for a 81mm mortar. Through proper coordination, we had him riding the bus all over Camp Casey and Hovey looking for it. Was all good until he walked into a supply room and their CSM just happen to be standing there when he asked for it.
I’ll never forget that ass chewing.
At Wheeler Army Airfield we would send the new PVT to all of the shops on the flight line looking for an India Delta Ten Tango (ID10T)
Here are a few that only the Snipes or Black Gang will appreciate:
– Bucket of Steam
– BT Punch
– Greasing
– Ignition key to the Main Engine
– “I’ll make the coffee … now how does that taste”
– Corpsman says, “this will require a square needle in the left nut”
– As a PO 2nd Class EOOW I would tell the Messenger of the Watch to go to the Chief’s Mess and “fetch me a cup of Joe”
– Muster on the Pool Deck
– “Get a Sounding on the Fallopian Tube”
– Involuntary “Smokers” (boxing) on the Fantail
– PKP Wars
– Steam Lance in the Excape Trunk
– “Go get me 10 feet of Chow Line”
– “Sorry ENS Dumbfuckski, we don’t salute officers in the hole, but you have to talk quietly around the Main Fuel Pumps because they are fitted with sensitive vibration sensors”
– Real conversation (I was the EOOW): “EOOW, Fireroom, Surface Blow 1A Boiler.” “Fireroom, Aye.” “EOOW, Fireman Bottom Blow 1B Boiler.” “Fireroom, Aye.” “Fireroom, EOOW.” “EOOW, Aye.” “Fireroom, EOOW Blow Me.” “EOOW, Aye.”
My Supervisor here is a retired CPO. My favorite one of his was having newbs stand on lookout with long hook waiting for the mail bouy….
MCPO
Gland Seal
Out of Calibration Wrench
Pipe Stretcher
Keys to Shaft Alley Lock
Spring Bearing Spring
One time we had a guy standing on the bow wrapped in aluminum foil so they could calibrate the radar (wasn’t me).
Confession: I stood Mail Bouy watch!
“Mail Bouy Watch to Bridge.”
“Mail Bouy Watch to Bridge.”
“Mail Bouy Watch to Bridge.”
“Ah, I think I see it.”
“Bridge to Mail Bouy Watch.”
“Mail Bouy Watch Aye.”
“Bridge to Mail Bouy Watch, keep an eye on it we are coming about.”
“Mail Bouy Watch Aye.”
“Mail Bouy Watch to Bridge.”
“Mail Bouy Watch to Bridge.”
“Mail Bouy Watch to Bridge, stop, you are going the wrong way.”
“Bridge to Mail Bouy Watch, sorry son, you were not quick enough, we have lost all the mail.”
BT Fireman Apprentice Dumbfuckski scratches his head and dreads the humiliation of the crew.
I was a Chinook guy in on active duty, and when they taught us new maintenance guys how to hook up sling loads, they always talked about how much static electricity the aircraft generated and how to avoid getting zapped. And invariably, we got the hell zapped out of us. Ken, my roommate, seemed to be a natural conductor of electricity. Every time he’d hook slingloads, he’d managed to get zapped, lose his footing, fall off the load (its a bitch when its a CONNEX) and and wind up in a heap 100 ft away in the rotor wash. So I get this bright idea, and I go over to our battery shop and get some of that 1/2″ or 1″ wide braided copper ground strapping, and I jimmy up what look like stirrups or garters. Basically, the ground strap goes up around the calf, and then down under the heel of the boot on the outside. I said to Ken “look, man, the problem is, you’re not grounded properly, so when the static hits you, it doesn’t have anyplace to go. It cant get thru your boots and down to the ground, so it affects you even worse. Wear these when you hook loads next time and it should help.” (NOTE: If you know anything about electricity, you’ll know this is going to make shit WORSE) So the next time we’re headed to field, Ken is out there hooking loads, and one of his platoon’s birds hovers over the connex. We’re all a hundred yards away watching with baited breath. Ken stands up, throws the clevis at the hook and there is a bright flash. Suddenly, he’s tumbling ass over teakettle in the rotor wash headed for the fence. We all run over as the aircraft flies away and Ken is trying to get to his feet all dazed. “Dude, what happened? Are you alright?” “Yeah, man.. I’m fine!” He looks at me “You were right, man. That didn’t hurt nearly as much as the previous ones!” (I came about as close right there as I ever have to… Read more »
@ 45 … Nice!
I stood mail bouy watch also. I was an OS and and I still got a BT punch.
Well,
I remember well getting my crow tacked on. I also had my aircrew wings blood-pinned to me. There’s still a small purple dot where the left prong went in.
I didn’t consider any of this hazing or demeaning to me. It was a right of passage, since only those who had their crow or wings could participate. The pain made you understand the responsibility that came with your new position, and carried on a tradition that made you forever a part of a fraternity.
@MCPO NYC USN (Ret.)
As part of MARDET USS Little Rock I did encouter a “sea bat”.
Almost didn’t end well.
@45.
We were simple Jarheads but I was taught to ground the bird with a pole hook before getting getting anywhere near the sling.
I also got blood wings at Airborne. Our TAC officer from EOBC came down to see us at graduation. He promised to behave. My first clue should have been the fact that he was SF. I was the first in the formation and he placed the pin and stood back. Thought I was GTG and he then punches them. I still remember the “pop” as I pulled them out. Didn’t hurt so much as startled the hell out of me.