Yeah, that’s what’s important
With Iranian ships steaming towards the Suez Canal and the Israeli coast, with Iran’s nuclear plans proceeding after recovering from the Stuxnet worm, with Hezbollah running Lebanon, the US decides to join the Palestinians in opposing new Israeli settlements;
The U.S. informed Arab governments Tuesday that it will support a U.N. Security Council statement reaffirming that the 15-nation body “does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlement activity,” a move aimed at avoiding the prospect of having to veto a stronger Palestinian resolution calling the settlements illegal.
But the Palestinians rejected the American offer following a meeting late Wednesday of Arab representatives and said it is planning to press for a vote on its resolution on Friday, according to officials familar with the issue. The decision to reject the American offer raised the prospect that the Obama adminstration will cast its first ever veto in the U.N. Security Council.
Yay! Our first Security Council vote will be in support of Hamas. See how smart is our diplomacy!
Thanks to ROS and Old Trooper for the link.
And, oh, Jimmy Carter tells us that the Muslim Brotherhood is nothing to be afraid of. So I guess we should start worrying now, given Carter’s record.
Old Trooper sends a link says Iran has canceled their plans to sail through the Suez to Syria.
Category: Barack Obama/Joe Biden, Jimmy Carter
Shades of 1979 all over again.
What part of the Israeli settlements on the West Bank being a totally illegal land grab don’t you understand? As Wikileaks demonstrated, the Palestinians bent over backwards to achieve a peace agreement in 2008, gave away the farm, but that still wasn’t enough to satisfy the Israelis, who really want to keep things in a permanent state of turmoil in the West Bank.
Seriously, Joe?
Seriously what? That the settlements are illegal, or that the Palestinians tried to give away the farm, or that Israel thinks it benefits from a permanent state of turmoil in the West Bank and Gaza?
The Palestinians bent over backwards? When?
As soon as they took over the settlements, they started launching suicide bombings and rockets from them. School buses, elderly, it didn’t matter. You must have the memory of a fruit fly.
Read up on the meetings between Olmert and Abbas in 2008. Then come talk to me.
Ok Joe. Lets take a look at that shall we? The following is from The Australian, 2009. Former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert provided the first detailed account of the offer he made to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas on 2008, in an interview with the Australian newspaper published November 28. Here are the key excerpts: Ehud Olmert still dreams of peace Greg Sheridan, Foreign editor The Australian November 28, 2009 http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/ehud-olmert-still-dreams-of-peace/story-e6frg76f-1225804745744 …In Sydney this week, I conducted, perhaps, the longest interview and discussion Olmert has undertaken with any media since leaving office in March after more than three years as prime minister… Olmert’s term in office is best remembered for the extensive negotiations, and final peace offer that he undertook with Abbas. Olmert explains this position to me in unprecedented detail. His offer to Abbas represents a historic watershed and poses a serious question. Can the Palestinian leadership ever accept any offer that an Israeli prime minister could ever reasonably make? It is important to get Olmert’s full account of this offer on the record: “From the end of 2006 until the end of 2008 I think I met with Abu Mazen more often than any Israeli leader has ever met any Arab leader. I met him more than 35 times. They were intense, serious negotiations.” [Note that there was no settlement freeze at the time]. These negotiations took place on two tracks, Olmert says. One was the meetings with the two leaders and their senior colleagues and aides (among them Kadima leader Tzipi Livni on Olmert’s side). But Olmert would also have private, one-on-one meetings with Abbas. “On the 16th of September, 2008, I presented him (Abbas) with a comprehensive plan. It was based on the following principles. One, there would be a territorial solution to the conflict on the basis of the 1967 borders with minor modifications on both sides. Israel will claim part of the West Bank where there have been demographic changes over the last 40 years.” This approach by Olmert would have allowed Israel to keep the biggest Jewish settlement blocks which are mainly now suburbs… Read more »
The Palestinians gave huge concessions on every front, too many to list here. The one stumbling block was a few settlements intruding way, way into the West Bank, especially Ariel, an affront to any kind of Palestinian territorial integrity. Other than that one issue, the Palestinians gave gigantic concessions never before even considered. Israel is afraid of their of their own fanatic settlers.
Where’s the bending over backwards on the part of the Palestinians again??
Hey Joe, aside from the American Indians please name for me a conquered people who, without the meddling of outside forces, weren’t in some way forced to assimilate into their conqueror’s culture. We can argue till we’re blue in the face over the right or wrong of assimilation, but it’s a reasonable expectation that a conquering entity is going to call the shots.
And answer me this genius, who exactly are the Palestinians, and why won’t any Arab nation in the region other than Jordan accept them as anything more than a tool to beat Israel with?
Reference our discussion here Joe: http://valorguardians.com/blog/?p=22206 . To put it in military speak, you consistently show an absolute inability to see situations in a strategic sense, opting instead for juvenile tactical maneuvering, there by opening yourself to the continual trouncing you receive here.
Grow up.
I’ve never understood the whole “illegal” argument. Israel won the land during combat, as conquerors. They kept the land through a number of wars. It’s their land.
It’s the same insanity that says America should be compressed to the waters off of Massachussetts and Virginia, since the 50 states and associated territories are “illegal settlements.”
Having been there, I can say the best thing in the world for that long and the inhabitants thereof was the rebirth of Israel.
Something else that so many people forget is that the Jews and the Arabs lived together for many, many years before Israel was created. The two sides traded with each other, conducted business and purchased land legally from each other. And then, when Israel was actually created as a country, the shit hit the fan. Outnumbered, outgunned and with virtually no support from the outside world, the Israelis whipped the Arabs and were able to stand on their own. (Been whipping them ever since, too.) But why was it that Jews and Arabs could live together in peace before the country was officially created?
So, “illegal” my ass. Jews owned property in Israel long before the country was created. How is it illegal for somebody to buy something and somebody else to willingly sell it to them?
Joe; the settlements aren’t illegal. That land was won in battle. It is Israeli territory. There was no such thing as a “Palestinian” until those territories were won from their respective countries during WAR. The people living in the West Bank area were Jordanians. The people living in the Gaza Strip were Egyptians. What part of “to the victor goes the spoils” don’t you understand?
BTW Yasser Arafat wasn’t Palestinian, he was Egyptian.
If you look back through the history of it all, you will find out that a few muslim arabs didn’t like the fact that Israel was created by the UN (not the US as so many on the left still claim) and vowed to take the territory, even though much of that land was already paid for by Jews who bought the land from the arabs living there. They told those living there that they should leave the area until after the Jews were thrown out off the land and then they could come back and reclaim land that they had already sold. Well, it hasn’t worked out quite the way they were promised by their muslim arab leaders, eh?
None of the “Palestinians” have any claim to jack shit.
Also, Joe; how do you square the settlements that were abandoned by the Israelis under a “peace agreement” that if they gave up the territory, the missile attacks would stop; yet when they left, the “Palestinians” moved in and immediately started launching rockets into Israel from the new positions? Plus, they turned what was once a very well taken care of area into a shithole, like they do with everything they touch? Several “Palestinians” that worked for the Israelis in the greenhouses were very upset that all their hard work went to hell in a handbasket as soon as the militants moved in. It has nothing to do with a “Palestinian” state and everything to do with wanting to get something for nothing. How many billions have been given to the “Palestinians” over the years? What do they have to show for it? That’s what I thought.
And once again, faced with the inadequacy of his arguments and the failure of his world view to stand up to the scrutiny of history, Joe slinks back to where ever he came from. Head low, tail tucked, he searches his soul for something, anything, to feel guilty about……
Obviously fiction, Italian. “Soul”? HA!
I thought it appropriate since most of his world view is fiction as well. 🙂
Gosh, quite a response. Most of your arguments can be boiled down to “might makes right”. It follows that you military men and women would worship naked power. Since the US has usually been the conquerors, this works out well for you. I’d be curious to see if you had the same view had you been on the receiving end of the nakba.
Jacobite, got work to do, can only monitor this site on lunch breaks or when I’m waitnig for some long-winded process to finish or a new installation to complete.
In would differentiate between Hamas and its missiles and the PLO led government on the West Bank. Your favorite president (? 2nd favorite?) Carter called it when he called Israel and aparteid state.
A lot of this has to do with the fact that people assume that if we just play nice that everything will work out. But time and time again we get burned.
The PlO split up between the Fatah group and Hamas. Notice how much attention Gaza gets compared to the West Bank? Also that Egypt also had a blockade on Gaza as well.
Joe; you’re wrong about so much, I don’t know where to begin. So, with that in mind, I will just give you the no-shit assessment.
Your use of the tired old rhetoric and cliches is priceless. I can’t believe you actually subscribe to that bullshit. You can’t name a place where the US were “conquerors”, because we don’t do that, especially in this day and age. So, you lose that argument before it is even born. Second off, you ignore every fact that has been laid out in front of you. Why is that? The “Palestinians” had every opportunity to play nice, yet they can’t help themselves; they have to continually smack the sleeping bear with a stick. There have been wars where Israel was attacked by 3 neighboring countries at once, yet they are the bad guys? Keep deluding yourself with your made up bs worldview, because if you ever had to deal with reality, your head would explode.
Joe,
Your arguement boils down to “concessions to numerous to name here” so you didn’t name them here, like it was totally unfair for Jacobite to start throwing facts around….they keep getting in the way of the “poor oppressed Palestinian” narative…
OldTanker,
Seriously, I would have to refer to printed material to begin to detail the lengthy negotions that took place in 2008. But from memory, Abbas agreed that they would have no military whatsoever, just a robust police force, Israel has complete control over Palestinian air space, no foreign forces whatsoever in Palestine, Israel reserved the right to to march right thru to the Jordanian or Egytpian borders if troops were massing on the Jordanian or Egyptian borders, international troops on the borders, with Israel having great control over which nations would provide said troops, numerous concessions on water, trade, etc., allowing Israeli highways to encroach into Palestinian territory, big concession as to the division and control of Jerusalem and the holy sites, and huge, huge concession as far as exisiting Israeli settlements on the West Bank. There were just a few settlements, the ones way, way inside the West Bank that compromised Palestinian geographical integrity, that were bones of contentions. Those are a few of the major concessions. Olmert later confided he was surprised at the way Abbas “rolled over” on many previously contentious issues. I believe Abbas really wanted a peace treaty, and offerd Israel a sweet deal, all things considered. Is that enough, Old Tanker?
To boot, Abbas made the admission that it would be politically impossible for an Israeli prime minister to evict large numbers of settlers from the West Bank, and he understood that. Also, Abbas candidly stated that to allow full right of return would destroy Israel, so he took that off the table. Both sides agreed on very limited right of return, but the numbers proposed by each side were subject to negotiation. Phew!
One more thing – they had a basic agreement on compensation for those whose land was taken.
The PLO was created and began its terror campaign against Jewish civilians in 1965… This was 2 years before the issue is settlements began. The reason is that the anti-Israel crowd views all of Israel as a settlement. Gaza is proof that it is not that easy to just leave, unless you are of the crowd that quantifies the terror from rockets against the local civilian population.
Also, Israel would have been a tiny sliver under the UN mandate, which was approved by Israel. The country gained in size only because the Arabs instantly sought to achieve genocide as soon as independence was declared. The result was that the significantly outgunned Jews one the day and survived.
The point you’re missing Joe is that none of those things are really concessions on the part of Abbas. You can’t give up that which you don’t have and have really never had. Israel is the nation which holds the upper hand, and always will, what ever agreement is made will be made because Israel gave something up that they currently have control of. Cripes man, your obtuseness really astounds me.
Again, might makes right…..
No, Reality.
Well, Jacobite, you must be a big fan of Russia and China,where they rule with an iron fist. Reality….
Nice attempt at a straw man there Joe. The situations aren’t even remotely related.
Joey, you spout the same BS as the hags in Code Stink, and all of the unwashed lefty profs, post docs, and smelly hippies on every left wing campus(but I repeat myself on that) in the country.
If only the Joooooooooos would just shut up and march peacefully into the ovens, the ever so oppressed Pally’s would assume their rightful place in the sun, and get their much deserved lebensraum, right?
And, because you refuse to source any of your “points”, why should anyone believe them?
Actually I take that back, not a straw man, because I believe that YOU believe what you’re saying to be true and aren’t actually asking to be smacked down.
More acurately you’re offering a Fallacious Argument known as the ‘Undistributed Middle’. Written as “All A are C, All B are C, therefore all A are B”. A plain example may be this: “All liberals suck, all whores suck, therefore all liberals are whores. lol
Again, the situations aren’t even remotely related.
OK Jacobite, let me elaborate. You’re a friend of mine who exercises naked power – good. You’re not a friend of mine who exercises naked power – bad.
A little off point, but why don’t we see Code Pink and friends protesting in the streets of Tehran in solidarity with the people? Or are they part of the Death to Israel, Death to the USA crowd?
It’s all just leading up to a declaration that Palestine is a state entity of the UN with a vote.
Hmmm, so Joe luvs him some Palis.
I guess that means that the TEA Party just needs to come up with a Bunny Rabbit that indoctrinates our children that Democrats are evil and should be killed.
On the one hand, Joey whines that “It follows that you military men and women would worship naked power.” On the other hand, he is 100% in support of a people who indoctrinate their children with hatred, vitriol and evil.
Brilliant.
Joe; please explain this “naked power” thing you keep harping about, because what I see is a country surrounded by others that hate them and want to kill all of them. I see people trying to go about their daily lives but those lives keep getting interrupted by suicide bombings and katusha rockets being shot at them. Did it ever occur to you that if the “Palestinians” would calm the fuck down and quit attacking Israel, that maybe, just maybe, Israel would leave them alone, also? Israel reacts to attacks; they don’t go looking for a fight, but they don’t back down from one, either. It’s called the survival instinct. All the leftists lost their minds a few years back because Israel rolled into Southern Lebanon, again. The problem is, the leftists had no idea as to why, other than their standard “might makes right” argument. They completely ignored the daily attacks coming from just over the buffer zone. Of course that leftist Europeans thought that the UN had to act to save the dirty bastards that attacked Israel, so they sent in peacekeeping troops. It’s like when the class bully continues to pick on someone and that person finally has had enough and kicks the shit out of the bully, only to be stopped because the teacher steps in to protect the bully. Will the bully continue being a bully, knowing that they are going to be protected by the teacher and not have to suffer the consequences of their bullying?
I know that you and the rest of the leftists really perceive Israel as the bully, but when was the last time that Israel attacked without first being provoked into it by being attacked first?
A lot of you guys use the same logic as the C street crowd – the people in power are in power because they deserve to be in power as evidenced by the fact that they are in power. Might makes right. Even Ehud Olmert admitted that grievous trauma (or worse – death) had been inflicted on hundreds of thousands of Palestinians when they were forcibly evicted from their ancestral lands in the late ’40s, and they should be compensated. How would you feel if you were forced off the land your family had been tending for centuries? If you were in their shoes you would definitely be calling for “2nd amendment remedies”. But it’s a chicken and egg thing. Certain fringe Palestinian groups fire rockets, the Israeli’s clamp down (to use a euphemism) on the entire population, which creates more resentment, which empowers more fringe elements, which causes the Israeli’s to clamp down harder – you get the idea, a vicious cycle. Research into human psychology and game theory points to the fact that cooperation is always the best policy – unless each side is so distrustful and hateful of each other that every move, even conciliatory moves, are viewed with suspiscion – then you’re in a death spiral. So confidence buliding measures, and genuine concessions are needed oneach side. The fact that a few lunatics can derail the process by firing some Katushas is very unfortunate. What’s so sad about the entire debacle is how tantalyzingly close Olmert and Abbas were in 2008 before Israel invaded Gaza. I believe factions in Israel have a morbid fear of a Palestinian state, even a toothless, unarmed one. These factions believe continual repression, turmoil and war are preferable to a Palestinian state. Thus, even when agreements are close, they manage to find an excuse to back pedal or derail the entire process. I hope all these revolutions in the Arabic world make Israel sit up and take notice – they’re current policiy of fomenting perpetual unrest in the West Bank and Gaza is fast becoming a dead end.
JOE:
You….don’t….have….a….clue.
Excuse me, but weren’t the Jews there first? So your argument about ancestral lands is rather a stretch; right? If I recall, isn’t the mosque of the Dome built on top of a Jewish temple?? Second, as I have explained plenty, but you continue to ignore and throw out your tired old falsehood; there was no one kicked off of their property. In fact, when Israel was formed, those arabs (not Palestinians, because that term never existed before the modern left started using it) were invited to join the new State as full citizens. Some did take the offer, while others refused and began plotting to destroy the new State. As I said before, again where you ignored it, it hasn’t worked out the way the plotters were hoping. Do you remember a country called Palestine? I don’t. I remember a British territory with a region they, meaning the British, called Palestine. I don’t remember anyone saying at that time that the British stole the land from the Palestinians. In fact, I don’t recall when, exactly, there ever was a Palestinian State. Maybe you could tell us all about it and how those muslim arabs, during the Ottoman Empire, didn’t take the land through victory in war. I guess it was ok for them to do it, but when Israel acquires land through victory in war, not started by them, that there is this need for them to give it back to the host countries, that actually lost it. Please explain who the Israelis should give the land to? If your argument about pre-1967 borders is to hold water, then that land doesn’t go to the “Palestinians”, but rather to Jordan and Egypt. Then what? Will you, and those that have limited critical thinking skills like you, start busting the chops of Egypt and Jordan to turn over the land to the “Palestinians”? See how far that gets you. Will you start accusing Jordan and Egypt of the “right makes might” crappola? It’s real easy for the leftists to run their pieholes as though they have some inherent moral authority,… Read more »
Joe, now you’re engaging in a couple differing styles of Fallacious Arguments.
1. Ad-Hominem (The person saying X is biased or otherwise flawed, therefore X is false), and…
2. Argument by repeated Assertion (associate X with Y often enough and eventually it perceived as an unquestioned fact, whether it is or not.)
What you haven’t done is answer the factual evidence provided by others, or offer any evidence to support your own claims. Are you going to at any point?
Jacobite, I think we’ll just have to take Joey at Code Stink’s word. He can’t source anything he spouts, because he’s “busy”, or it’ll be on lunch break, or while he’s waiting for porn to download.
Meanwhile, it’s the fault of the West, the Jooooooos, blue sky or whatever the lefty talking point is this week. Maybe, it’s Governor Walker’s fault? Governor Christie? John Boehner? Who can be blamed today, Joey?
I gave you facts, Jacobite, you just prefer to ignore them.
No Joe, you gave statements and positions, with no supporting evidence, not facts. You appear smarter than to actually believe what you’ve provided are facts. We all have provided statements and positions WITH supporting evidence, making them facts.
Try again.
Post-negotiation interviews with Abbas, Olmert, and other lower level diplomats involved in the 2008 talks were contributing sources.
JOE: As Old Trooper asked: “Do you remember a country called Palestine?”. So, now where do we go from here? Who has given up what they’ve earned?
And, who has only given up a tiny bit if what they had been handed?
There never was a “Palestine”, so anyone claiming to be a “Palestinian” is in fact masquerading as such.
And as mentioned in Old Troopers comment: “If your argument about pre-1967 borders is to hold water, then that land doesn’t go to the “Palestinians”, but rather to Jordan and Egypt. Then what? Will you, and those that have limited critical thinking skills like you, start busting the chops of Egypt and Jordan to turn over the land to the “Palestinians”?”
As I said above: “JOE:
You….don’t….have….a….clue.”
Well, I think a former prime minister of Israel has a little better grip on the situation than you do, and he admitted that hundreds of thousands of arabs had been forcefully evicted from their ancestral lands, suffered severe trauama and dislocation, deserved either the right of return or compensation, and was willing to trade Israeli land for lands that Israel settled on the West Bank. So given the choice Frankly, I’ll go with Ehud’s opinion over yours.
Joe, I wish I could trust the facts as you present them, but you are given to mouth frothing.
I’m not saying that the Jews are lily white in the history of this, because to really understand how we got to this, you have to go back to WWI. There were some rather contentious things that happened under British rule, where a small group of Jews were causing some trouble, however, we aren’t talking about that; we are talking about 1967 and what was won through battle at that time. If we go by the premise that the land needs to be given back to those that held it before the 6 day war, then we must contemplate whether we need to give this country back to England, because we won this land from them in our war of Independence; correct? Do we give it back?
In 1997, the agreement being pushed by Clinton and Israel would give 97% of the West Bank and all of the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians. The Palestinians refused; why? What is their real motivation? I’ll tell you what it is; they don’t want a Jewish State at all in the ME. They have made statements to that effect several times. I guess that there will never be peace until Israel ceases to exist?