USMC considers no first enlistment Grunts.
This kind of thing was toyed with back in the early 80’s. Some people think Marines that are at least on their second enlistment are better killers. Marine Corps Times reports:
Older. Wiser. More seasoned. Deadlier.
There’s a controversial idea taking root at the Pentagon: That Marines should wait an enlistment before joining the infantry, coming into traditional rifle squads only after getting some experience in another career field. It would be a profound change that would make Marine infantry units older, but potentially stacked with additional skill sets.
It would also further blur the line between conventional infantry Marine and special operator, as they’d be plucked from the same pool.
I got plucked from the pool…we just worded it a bit different.
Whether the 18-year-old grunt Marine model can continue to compete on the future battlefield is a question being scrutinized at the top levels of the Defense Department and among top officials close to Defense Secretary Jim Mattis, who is himself a former Marine infantry commander.
One such man leading the charge is a retired general who chairs Mattis’ Pentagon task force focused on boosting lethality of grunts.
“The optimal age for a close-combat soldier, the balance is … mid to late 20s,” retired Army Maj. Gen. Robert Scales told Marine Corps Times.
That’s probably about right, I started at 17. Most are done with their first marriage by their second enlistment, their pay goes out in allotments and the Driftwood has them on the banned list, death doesn’t scare them anymore. Some of us even have a stripe or two left.
Today’s grunts have increasingly taken up the mantle of special operations missions where small detachments of Marines have deployed to advise and train foreign military units in remote and hostile environments — missions that require mature operators and problem solvers.
Oh, they mean like Marines have always been doing. I can tell them from experience, maturity comes on pretty fast when you’re on the chopper flying into a country you can not pronounce in the middle of the night.
“Significant focus is being placed on the human dimension,” Marine spokeswoman Capt. Karoline Foote told Marine Corps Times. “We are evaluating and implementing improvements in how we recruit, train and retain our infantry Marines.”
Ahh, I have read that kind of stuff before. It’s one of those “say nothing in 20 words or more” things.
“The way JSOC [Joint Special Operations Command] operates is a telling point,” he explained.
Aaaaaaand there we have it. People who have no idea what an EGA is, trying to dictate the manner in which Marines are to kill people.
One option the Corps could consider is saving a large portion of infantry slots for a second enlistment. A benefit to this would be the added experience and skill sets carried over by Marines hailing from other support billets and functions into ground combat units.
Infantry squads could potentially be stacked with Marines with experience in intelligence, electronic warfare, engineering or communications.
WTF? Ok, so I have to prance up to a platoon with Sgt (electronic warfare) and tell every one he is the skulling coach. Get the F*** outta here with that s***. The average 19 year old LCpl will break his ass. All I am trying to say is Combat Arms Marines can be a bit brutal…age got nuttin to do with it.
“With 16 years of infantry background, I learned 80 percent of my ground pounding in my first four years,” one Marine combat instructor told Marine Corps Times. “And as the war has kind of slipped away from us, the majority of the seasoned fighters have moved on because with no war they feel cheated.”
Bingo, all we are asking is Give War a Chance. People, we have to keep our heads about us until this peace craze blows over. They go on and on but you will have to follow the link because they start quoting General Neller and it gives me gas. I have led Marines into the unknown, never questioned the maturity of a singly one of them.
Category: Military issues, Terror War
Indeed as things wind down there’s always going to be those guys who like to offer opinions on what would make the next thing better than the last thing.
A great many of those opinions that are offered are of little to no value long term because they are based on the concept of lots and lots of excess troops hanging around and waiting to be career soldiers anxious to start their second enlistment.
They sort of ignore the reality that 17% of troops will hang around for 20…the other 83% move on to other things fairly quickly. Thinking there are all kinds of numbers hanging around to suit waiting for a second enlistment is certainly an interesting opinion but one wonders the actual practical value long term.
I certainly understand their is a value to an infantry squad with multiple career fields and knowledge bases beyond infantry school, but I wonder the practicality of that wish to see it happen force wide.
Marine spokeswoman Capt. Karoline Foote told Marine Corps Times…
I’d bet the cost of a Perdomo that her jaws are clenched together when she speaks.
I’m not a Marine. Not being one does not mean that I can’t sort out the silly ideas from the good ones. If the Good Idea Fairies have invaded the USMC with this kind of tripe, then the real purpose of the USMC is being ignored.
You’re supposed to shoot the Bad Guys, take a body count, then crank out a written report on it, then hit Smelly’s Happy Ass Bar & Grille to pound down a few and have a steak & fries, and then find some way to relieve all those other urges.
I object to my tax money being used to turn trained killers into desk jockeys.
Some of my best Marines were of the Pvt, PFC, L/CPl variety. I just don’t see this working out.
Not when every guy in the platoon is an NCO.
When the lowest rank is a Corporal with 2 years TIG, who picks up the cigarette butts?
The idea behind Mattis’ close combat restructuring is that marine and army infantry platoons won’t be doing that shit anymore, they’ll be training.
What is it about brass? They get to the pentagon and suddenly become whootzes? I though Mattis would teach them where to shyt in the buckwheat, but apparently is only going to be petunias?
Yeah, god forbid we actually win a war for once. Stupid brass.
Yeah, sure. ‘Cause nothing prepares a war fighter how to survive in combat like some experience in payroll, for instance.
What happened to we want the fearless youngsters out front because they know they are invincible and they can run faster? May be an archaic model but it works.
I don’t understnad.
I thought every Marine was an infantry dude.
IDK bro, things change. Test it out sometime, next admin/supply Marine you run into call him/her a POG and let us know how it turns out.
Curious to see if things have changed all the much with Marine Corps.
Muhahahahahaha!
In my experience not a damn thing but whine, and expect you to say they aren’t a POG because …. Marine. Saying my job is just like Infantry is a very popular thing. If they want the job they can earn it or STFU. Besides being a rifleman I was a Bradley Driver and later a Gunner, and I would never say my job was just like a tanker. I served with guys who were Marine Infantry first and switched branches to the Army. The Infantry is the Infantry; pogs are pogs.
Dave, Its amazing what duties/responsibilities junior Marines have. My MOS 6173 compared to equal MOS’s in other branches example: Min crew for a CH-53 was 3, I think its 4 or 5 in the Navy and Air Force plus I was a Crew Chief @ E-3 and Navy, Air Force I think you had to be min E-5 or above.
Happy POG Out!
Yef:
Why don’t you tell us about your highly coveted “valor award” again?
I’m sure that all of the Marine Corps POGs here would love to hear all about your amazing acts of derring-do, because everyone knows that no Marine Corps POG has ever done anything that would rate a “valor award”.
So pogs chose a job that requires constant patrols? As a former grunt at what point should my service be devalued? If everyone is capable of being Infantry WTF were you doing? Does a grunt need a valor award to have done their job?
“Everyone can be Infantry, but you weren’t so STFU!”
Stupid in so many ways. We already have Marine infantrymen on their second enlistment. They’re called NCOs.
It sure would be great if every single member of the military was an elite killing machine that also had a PhD in one medical/science field. Along with that, at least a Masters in Engineering and/or an IT field. That way they know everything and can do everything. Oh and at the same time, they can deadlift 500lbs, only need to sleep 2 hours a day, can hit a gnat’s ass with a sniper rifle from 2 miles away.
Let’s just shoot for this model for every service member, imagine how excellent we’d all be!
Put a bunch of 18-21 year olds out in the middle of nowhere alone to have to figure shit out when they get attacked and see how extraordinary they become.
►Put a bunch of 18-21 year olds out in the middle of nowhere alone to have to figure shit out when they get attacked and see how extraordinary they become.◄
Absolutely. I work in Yale Hall, named for one of those extraordinary young, FIRST TERM infantry Marines.
Read more here.
https://www.legion.org/magazine/101297/six-seconds-live
I just read in the Times article the retired army general said, “Marines are deeply wedded to the young Marine, the 18 year old,” Scales said.”
Wedded? Like it’s some irrational thing? Yes, having young men in the infantry is just some silly tradition we crazy people have. Whatever were we thinking being so clingy to such things!
This is the right idea and has been working for a long, long time…
I want my Marines equally deadly regardless of age and or technical specialty.
Is that asking too much.
I don’t care who does the killing and breaking of shit … 19 year old private or a 39 year old crusty and slightly angry Gunny … as long as the enemy is killed dead … just send the Marines.
AAAAAAAAAAAAFUCKINGMEN!
Army Maj. Gen. Robert Scales – sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up.
Put ’em in country without booze or broads….tell them that’s waiting in abundance as soon as the mission is accomplished. Set your stopwatch and stay the hell out of the way. Simple.
Or their out of beer and the enemy has all of it. Dilly, Dilly!
That’s just inhumane…I like it.
Well, I see the Good Idea Fairy has been visiting the Five Sided Asylum (or perhaps Quantico) again. Sometimes I wish someone would catch that “wonderful entity”, cage it, and ship it one-way to Antarctica – without any cold weather gear.
Let’s see: about 3-4 years to E4, and another 3 to E5 (yeah, I know some make E5 faster). Join at age 18, add 6 or 7 years . . . gee, that’s mid-20s. Late 20s and you might have some E6s or even E7s in the bunch.
So, that means that you’ll have infantry squads composed of all Chiefs and no Indians. That rank structure might work out in SOF units; as I recall, the lowest authorized grade in an SF ODA is E5. But I’m kinda doubtful it will work all that well in line infantry. Or that it’s affordable, since the bulk of personnel in current line infantry units are E1 thru E4 – and E5s/E6s/E7s get paid more.
Methinks some USMC General has a raging case of SF/SEAL envy, and apparently thinks simply being a Marine isn’t special enough any more.
I dunno, Hondo, I’ve been noodling this for a couple of minutes, and im not certain I feel it’s operator envy.
I thought that way at first, (and to be sure, I think it’s ultimately a silly idea) but I now think it’s borne of a different idea than envy. I kinda wonder if they’re worried about justifying a combat existence and using all DA type guys in force multiplication roles, or to be charitable align it with some “task force” model. so I can see what they’re *wanting* to do, but it’s ultimately a foolish idea, because it’s not how modern combat typically works. special operators do not take and hold ground, or deny the enemy a battlespace, over a period of time. they accomplish set missions and move on to the next mission. they’re simply not built that way – by design. they’ll probably also spew some nonsense about looking at getting soldiers (in that I also include sailors, airmen, and marines) “marketable” after service or something to directly compete in the civilian arena. I’d look for them to want to reorganize the squad formations (again) next, along similar lines.
thoughts?
“I recall, the lowest authorized grade in an SF ODA is E5”
It was when I went through the Q course and when I was an NCOIC, but that changed several years ago. Still lots of NCOs in the class but we train em from the bottom up now.
ADDENDUM: The Navy still has the requirement that to be an IDC you have to be a PO2 with at least 2 years time in grade. We have had a Sailor or two (dunno the precise number)that were allowed to complete SFMS but they were not allowed to practice as IDCs until those requirements were fulfilled and their application package was approved. It was a rare exception based on a case by case decision.
Thanks for the update. It’s been over 35 years since I was assigned to an SF Group (support role, not ODA), so I didn’t know about recent grade structure changes.
Not sure I agree with Big Army’s decision there; IMO there’s something to be said for an SF troop having practical experience with conventional forces first, given one of SF’s historical primary missions (if that hasn’t been dropped as well). But Big Army didn’t ask my opinion. (smile)
…and to further your all Chiefs/no Indians line of thought, those Chiefs you do have will have zero experience as Infantrymen. How on earth do you create an Infantry unit when none of your junior NCOs have experience doing the job?
Not to mention some skills in the other MOSs in things like languages are relatively perishable. Learn a language, don’t use it, lose much of it quickly. Languages learned later in life tend not to imprint as well.
Some technical schools (radio repair; interrogator/interpreter) last somewhere near a year. Is the Marine Corps going to throw away that investment? And what about promotions? Do you get the cutting score for infantry or your first MOS?
Capt. Karoline Foote…. chief sandwich maker, grunt killing machine creator.
How many single enlistment grunts would the Marine Corps lose over a rule like this?
Many youngsters simply one to do a single hitch, serve their Country, and go back to civilian life. Some of them want to go do it 4 years as 0311. Just that simple.
I think I read in a book somewhere we have even had entire wars that lasted 4 years or less, and people who joined up specifically to fight in them.
That’s a good point.
I envision a lot of infantry billets having to be left vacant until they get filled by someone who decides to reenlist to it.
How can an infantry unit be fully capable and ready when needed when positions are left open?
Fuggin’ dumbasses.
I have a great idea. I got it from the movie ‘Aliens’. Gorman –> Foote.
Let’s put Captain Pinchmouthed Bonyass in a combat unit in the field and see how long she lasts before she goes into hysterical sobbing when bullets from the Bad Guys are flying over her varnished hairdo. If she still thinks afterwards that Marines should learn clerical skills first and shoot-shoot-bang-bang second, I might be willing to listen to her drivel.
I’ll bet she can’t even sharpen her own pencils.
Just a question here: Has CPT Weaksauce ever been in a firefight? Ever? At all?
In her defense, she’s a spokeswoman – probably public affairs – so she stating the “approved talking points” the command wants to publish. I’ve had a lot of friends who were PAO’s that had to make statements that they didn’t agree with because, well, they chose that career field.
I have always been glad that there were people who wanted those jobs because I sure as hell never did.
Considering what Marines are supposed to be and do, if I were in her shoes, I’d find it an embarrassment to put that kind of thing in front of the public.
IF Those Behind the Curtain really think this is a good idea, they are either uninformed or not paying attention to the real world outside the walls of their offices.
Concur on all.
Given the way the Army, or at least Big Army, does stuff, I am really not sure I want some Army Doggie General telling the Marine Corps how to do its business.
The marines are doing a damn fine job killing the people that need killing just as they are. Don’t fuck with success. It is that first enlistment hardness, that prompts those with the mindset to look towards Raiders and MARSOC.
If they wait until the second enlistment to make a Rifleman, then the SOC is going to start aging out several of their best years of service.
Dangum! You get HBO on them things?!
I have NO problem with Infantry being selected and a cut above. I’ve seen too many just-good-enoughs and can’t-hackits float around like a turn in a pool.
You can replace “Infantry” above with the name of any other military specialty – and you’ll get 100% agreement from those in that specialty. It’s human nature. Everyone wants their troops to be the “best and brightest”.
Problem is, there’s only so much “best and brightest” to go around. And absent a draft, there’s not enough of it to fill all uniformed slots in DoD. Even with a draft, I’d be skeptical of being able to do that.
Put all of the “best and brightest” talent all in one specialty, and the overall effectiveness of the force will suffer. You need talent in ALL specialties. The consequence of that dispersion of talent is that it means you’ll have some “less than stellar” performers in each specialty as well.
Best I can tell, the services try and “square the circle” in this respect through assigning specialties based on a combination of individual preference and pre-service/in-service testing. By and large, they seem to do a good job on that score. But no system ever will be perfectly effective, and no system will ever make everyone in uniform “Joe Supersoldier”.
Bottom line: IMO you can only competitively select relatively small elements with special missions (e.g., the various SOF operational elements) without a detrimental overall effect – and voluntary self-selection has to play a big part in the process if you want success. And I have grave doubts that a draft would help much in that respect.
Ranger Regiment works just fine with first term enlistees. It works because the Regiment can take a very small sub-set of the best of each OSUT and then still attrit from the battalions at a decent clip. Even if the Marines only let the top people from each class compete to be 0311, the math requirements won’t work.
This strikes me as folks who want a form fit, but don’t want to admit that they live in an off the rack world.
Having watched 2 episodes of Generation Kill, this makes perfect sense to me. So does not embedding Rolling Stones reporters.
When did the Marines begin screwing with things that work? I thought that was the exclusive province of the Army.
Yeah, more “Fix it until it’s FUBAR” from the Five-Sided Asylum, it apparently affects all of the Services!
I detect a new bias towards Marines on TAH.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
It could be worse. I don’t know how but, really, it could be…I think.
Yeah. Why is everything about Marines?
Because not everything can be about you, Yef.
Do you need to restock the mimeograph fluid? If you’re ordering stuff, I could use a carton of E-6 chemicals while you’re at it, and some Acufine, too. Get busy.
I was sooooooo waiting for that comment. The pressure is off, thanks for posting.
Most of the younger people (18-20) who will sign up for this already know how to use a keyboard, computer, and write stuff and (depending on the school system – ours here is tough and heavy laden) be clear on what they say.
The idea that they should be taught clerical duties ahead of infantry is just plain dumb. They should be given the infantry training ahead of anything else, because as Marines, that is their primary job.
I can just imagine the horror as a LCPL clerk whose primary job has been supply distribution being transferred to a shoot-shoot-bang-bang environment with no warning, no real infantry training, and no idea what he’s supposed to do.
How will he know that, to hit the target shooting at him from a distance of a quarter mile, he has to aim at height of the fork in the tree next to the target and allow for windage if he hasn’t had that kind of training?
Sounds like they read Scalzi’s Old Man’s War. Until we can clone our older, wiser minds into young bodies, I don’t see how this makes much sense.
“I’d like to have two armies: one for display with lovely guns, tanks, little soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals, and dear little regimental officers who would be deeply concerned over their General’s bowel movements or their Colonel’s piles, an army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country. The other would be the real one, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display, but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That’s the army in which I should like to fight.”
― Jean Lartéguy
I spent a tour in Vietnam as an 0311 with a 7th Marines rifle company and knew that with two and a half years to go on my enlistment I had at least one more trip back there. I rotated back and spent 3-4 months at Pendleton then was ordered to Sea School and spent the remainder of my time on a carrier, nobody was more surprised than I was. A few months after reporting to the ship we received a bunch of PFCs right out of boot camp who then spent two years on sea duty before being sent to rifle companies and CAP Units in Vietnam, most as NCO’s with no experience in the real Marine Corps. I’ve listened to some of their stories at reunions and just damn glad I went to Vietnam before sea duty.
I wonder how many of the marines that stormed the beaches on Tarawa, Cape Gloucester, Guadalcanal, or Iwo Jima were second termers. Hell, how many of their officers were in their second hitch? Nothing prepares a man for combat but combat. Four years in supply is no guarantee that a man will survive his first contact with the enemy. Another bright idea that will kill more marines. With the pentagon on our side, who needs ISIS?
Ar they 1) trying to improve the USMC killing machine,
2) Or re-create Buckaroo Banzai’s Hong Kong Cavaliers?
If learning a musical instrument becomes part of it, then #2 it is.
I agree. Choice #2.
Another solution in search of a problem from the five sided wind tunnel? Say it ain’t so!
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!
What “skill sets” do pigs have that would benefit infantry duties? Give me a break with this horse shit. Also if those supposed skill sets are so awesome and important why are they given to 1st enlisted troops?! See how that works. Maturity? Who the fuck writes this shit. They ask infantry marines to do stupid shit 99% of time and are essentially saying how dare those marines not let off some steam.
This is so retarded I can’t even. As if any MOS is dictated by “maturity” even those supposed holy grail of sf/SoF. This is basically a full force attack on comedy within the ranks. Maturity… get the fuck out of here. Some higher officer had his sensibilities hurt by some guy’s that actually fight the wars they get credit for. The people that come up with this shit need to be deployed so they can get to work instead of trying to change human nature to appease some PC power point bullet requirement.
“What ‘skill sets’ do pigs have that would benefit infantry duties?”
I was waiting for someone to ask that question, so thank you.
In contrast, if a Marine leaves one MOS and goes to the infantry, I can see something like this happening:
“Motor T” LCpl decides he’s tired of the motor pool and wants to reenlist and go into the infantry (0311, 0331, doesn’t matter).
After he attends all the requisite training and gets assigned to his first “victor” unit, they learn the new guy has a lot of Motor T experience, so he’s remanded to those type of duties.
It strikes me that no matter how motivated he is..or whether he can shoot strait, shows proficiency at infantry tactics, be an effective fire-team leader or read a map and lensatic compass won’t mean shit.
What about the enlisted grade-pyramid in the USMC? About an 80% attrition rate after the first enlistment, so just how many non-infantry E1 – E3 positions will have to be created just to get a large enough through-put to man three divisions???? How many E4 selectees will opt for Infantry so they can stay on as a terminal lance just for the privilege of being a grunt? NO ONE loves the Green Weenie THAT much.
Boot camp, AIT (somewhere in the back of my mind it says ATR), M O S school and you are ready and hoping to get in some real action and blow off some steam. Perfect time when you are just thinking you are the baddest M F on the face of the earth. Other than being in the field and the thick of it, everything Stateside is boring as hell. Once you have been through the real shit, many times with growing old you realize how much you miss the adrenaline rush. Enlisted for four, stayed in RVN for 23 months so I’d likely not have to go back in the time left in my original enlistment. Back in the States, they send me to Quantico. To me that was punishment enough. Quickly realized I was a field Marine (1811 tanks), neither wanting nor fit for Stateside duty. Quantico was short on personnel, not wanting to lose those already on post. At Battalion level they kept tearing up my request to return to RVN. An old Gy. Sgt. helped me as he was a friend of then Sgt. Major of the Marine Corps (Herbert Sweet) and said to make a call to USMC Hq and use his name as an introduction. Got an appointment with the Sgt Major the next morning. His office was directly across from the office of the USMC Commandant. He was as casual and likable as one could ever hope for. Took one look at my SRB and had me on the way back to where I belonged in eleven days.
Start messing with grunts and it will eventually lead to tanks, artillery, and any other combat related MOS. Then comes the “Well we can’t find enough grunts to do the job”. What a shocker!
“They are in front of us, behind us, and we are flanked on both sides by an enemy that outnumbers us 29:1. They can’t get away from us now!”
Lewis B.“Chesty” Puller,USMC
Umm, has the Marine Corps considered issuing everyone berets?
Have Hondo get on the phone with General Matis immediately.
So pogs chose a job that requires constant patrols? As a former grunt at what point should my service be devalued? If everyone is capable of being Infantry WTF were you doing? Does a grunt need a valor award to have done their job?
“Everyone can be Infantry, but you weren’t so STFU!”
Attention TAH shoppers, there’s a blue light attitude issue on aisle 7. With an apparent stutter.
Somebody go reset Chesty’s Headstone. It got all caddywhomppered from His spinning. Current war winding down? Soldiers and dogs, keep off the grass! A system that has worked perfectly fine for nearly 250 years, that is not broke, don’t need fixing.
[…] Hat: CSI: 3rd Reich (NB: this is not a Man In The High Castle reference) This Ain’t Hell: Marines Consider No First Enlistment Grunts, also, The Lone Dog Tag Recovered From North Korea Had A Name Victory Girls: Mollie Tibbetts And […]
Perhaps the Army 2-Star in the Task Force is hoping to get all the 18-year-olds who really want to fight AND serve only one term of enlistment —who initially may have been interested in USMC—to join the Army? The promise of some dreary-ass desk job for one’s first USMC tour (versus the chance fight AND get a $40K Army enlistment bonus) just might do the trick for USAREC. God knows Army recruiting is getting desperate as they continue to fail spectacularly to make their annual enlistments mission.
Do the Marines really have that many non-infantry types who want to do a second hitch and fill all those Infantry slots? And what happens if we ever get into a real war again? One where the Inf. guys take 20% or more casualties? That’s a hell of a tail-to-tooth ratio.
Then there is the additional, and substantial, cost of training *everyone* for two jobs. And the fact that the lowest man on the Inf. totem poll would be at least an E3 over 3. Evidently the Pentagon has more loose money lying around than they need. As a taxpayer I will remember this come budget time when they all scream for more.
USMC boot camp and ITR….all boots are trained FIRST and FOREMOST to be of the grunt mentality, with the later M O S specialty to be a regular job with the grunt think secondary…but AVAILABLE when required. So what happens when the M O S training becomes FIRST and FOREMOST, while the grunt mentality becomes a soon to be forgotten mere piece of training?