OTH Discharge upgrades
Connecting with Vets reports that you might get your “bad paper” other-than-honorable discharges upgraded at no expense, if you use the American Legion and other veterans’ service organizations (VSO) to help navigate the process since it’s their job. You don’t have to be a member of the organization in order to take advantage of their expertise;
“It’s free to all veterans not just Legion members,” American Legion Alex Zhang tells ConnectingVets.com. “If you show up at our offices, and you have a DD-214, we will help you with that process.”
Gerardo Avila, the Legion’s Deputy Director of DoD issues says there are typically two issues that can lead to an upgrade of discharge status from OTH to General. The first is if a command didn’t go about things the proper way when discharging the individual, and the second is if the punishment truly fit the “crime.”
“If a service member was separated and they think they got a raw deal where maybe the DoD or the respective branch did not follow due process, just like in the civilian world… there’s some issues right there with propriety,” Avila says. “Equity issues would be was the punishment too harsh or maybe there was more than one person involved and one got an OTH and one got a general discharge. the board can provide relief on that.”
Of course, your behavior before the punishment as well as your conduct after the discharge works for, or against you, too.
Connecting with Vets also discusses new guidance from the Pentagon on victims of sexual trauma who got “bad paper” as a result.
Alex Zhang, assistant director of DoD Board and national cemetery at the American Legion said the organization is still reviewing the new guidance and how it can help veterans with discharge upgrades.
For the Legion’s own work in discharge upgrades, the new guidance “supports the efforts that we make,” he said. “It’s like less of a hurdle so now it makes it easier. But it also clarifies things for the DoD board to say hey, now you really have to take this into further consideration.”
Zhang also said that over 700,000 veterans need or are seeking upgrades to their discharges and hopes that this new guidance will help reduce those numbers.
Category: Veterans Issues
You can also get your student loans forgiven, your mortage forgiven, your sentence commuted to time served, your credit card debt wiped,
your cell phone for free…………….
Can’t we just forgive everyone for everything?
Right. I went in the service, did my job,got out, worked 40 years. So just kick me and most others like me in the nuts by giving some shitbag that wouldn’t do their job the breaks.
You bet, a hell of a lot easier to just do your job, keep your nose clean and get an honorable, then you can talk to your kids about it without hiding your face!
There are also thousands of veterans who received “honorable” or “under honorable conditions” discharges who didn’t deserve them too. You know, the ol’ “sign here and get out while we sweep your shit under the carpet ’cause we’re too tired of your bullshit to go to a courts martial” discharges. What should we do about them?
I know of one in particular who was told, “So you’re ETSing in a couple of months huh?”
“Nope, I’m gonna re-enlist.”
“Well, you can either ETS, or you’ll PCS to Leavenworth.”
Honorable Discharge, no penalties. The only positive thing was that he’d be out of the Army.
The fact that someone, somewhere, for some reason, believed that you were enough of a flaming dickbag that you deserved an OTH, is wildly acceptable to me. It’s so very much sufficient, that I would love to see a standard of clear and convincing evidence applied in court before any change is made to “bad paper”.
It wasn’t unfair or an accident, that discharge happened for a reason. Same goes for RE code.
I agree to some point. Though there are instances where the .MIL got politically correct and gave someone an OTH or other heavy handed punishment because what they got caught doing was the “issue of the day”…
I knew a guy that was slapped with some NJP then got smacked hard as he got out because the Tailhook incident was bad for the Navy at the moment. No one mentioned that he was enlisted and not in naval aviation… But he grabbed the wrong girls ass at the wrong time and got spanked MUCH harder than he would have 6 months before.
I wonder how many slick-brush shitballs will suddenly show up thinking it’s the key to a compartment on some gravy train?
Pessimist. Lighten up, Francis.
Why the fuck would veteran service organizations try to upgrade confirmed shitbags discharge?
$$$. It’s always about the money.
Yep. Some VSO memberships must be pretty low for them to stoop to this level of fucktardery.
Wrong Answer, maybe if you were a little more mature and educated you would see that some people and VSO’s are genuine and are out for the Veteran with no strings as I do what I do for free and out of my own time.
…maybe they don’t consider themselves the ones to decide who is a “confirmed shitbag,” but they do the advocacy and let the agency decide that.
Kind of like how criminal defense attorneys don’t reject clients because of their poor character. One reason for that…though it is not the only reason…is that it encourages the clients to at least tell the truth to their advocates.
I have an Honorable Discharge.
As did my friends and my men.
And for the record, a criminal defense attorney can reject a client on ethical grounds to include they/he/she discover that their client is a lair and a shitbag. Even Public Defenders have an ethical obligation. Mind you this is somewhat lip service considering the profession at hand, but it is a rule.
Anyone that does not have one (HD)is a shitbag. Period. Especially if they style themselves first and foremost as a Veteran, VSO or Veteran’s Advocate. And I am going to tell you, they will not put it out there that they have a substandard discharge. One must ask. And that is where the lies and backpedaling usually begin.
And it is about the money and the “political correctness”. With the VA’s jacked up 30 day (or whatever it is) definition of being a Veteran, these turds are clamoring for equality even though they shirked duty in service.
Also, the public persona and perception of “all Veterans are good people” is clouding the larger picture.
To be in the VFW all you need is a General Discharge. Yeah. Now imagine these shitbags in leadership….
And for the record, a criminal defense attorney can reject a client on ethical grounds to include they/he/she discover that their client is a lair and a shitbag.
You can withdraw from representing them….indeed you have to…if they insist on lying to the court and you know (not just suspect it). But you don’t, for example, say, “Oh, the crime is child molesting? Sorry, molesters are shitbags, so you can defend yourself.” At least not in a TDS or public defender’s office, you don’t.
Anyone that does not have one (HD)is a shitbag.
I know a few examples to the contrary, especially from units that got “chapter-happy.” People who, in different times and places, would’ve been put back in line with a quick punishment or a good talking-to.
I know a guy who got a General under Honorable conditions discharge. He was a brand new PSG and one of his Soldiers committed suicide because he Team Leader was hazing him (it was all over the news for a while). He was the Sergeant of the Guard when the kid shot himself in the guard tower. The PSG heard the shot and rushed to the tower and then attempted to save the kids life. They got him on “disturbing a crime scene”.
Not sure-coulda happened—–I guess. But yer comment smells like organic barnyard material to me.
VFW membership requires a good discharge and proof of a tour in a Combat Zone, actual shoot back at the bad guys not required. I have life membership in the VFW. I served one tour(12.5 months) in NAM as a Bandsmen in the 1st MARDIV(2 months) and 3rd MARDIV(rest of tour, and that qualified me for membership.
good question..and said didn’t need to be a member? how could you be a member without an honorable? they went through my papers with a fine tooth comb when I joined…said they had problems with phonies in the past!
My guess (although I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night) is that 90 percent of these discharges will NOT be upgraded; rather, this is for the rather small minority that got fucked by the fickle finger of fate.
This will especially not matter for those whose discharges were resulting from courts martial. Appellate authority goes over all of those pretty thoroughly, and I’ve yet to run into a case where the discharge classification wasn’t well deserved.
…rather, this is for the rather small minority that got fucked by the fickle finger of fate….
…or who are able to put together a convincing enough lie that that’s what happened, or who keep applying until they find an ex-hippie GS-9 to approve…
But I still think you’re right overall.
“who are able to put together a convincing enough lie”
Yep.
I have seen the OTH used in…let’s say…”personal” revenge ways.
But let’s be honest. That is not going to be a statistically significant number.
Yep. I think it does help that an OTH gives you a right to a discharge board…whereas a Soldier with less than 6 years can be general-discharged by signed paper with no board.
My experience with Army discharge boards is that they take their duty seriously, stay engaged with the evidence, and try to follow the regulation if you explain it clearly enough.
Perhaps…having sat more than one…all I will say is that being diligent with information received is the best they can do…
Bottom line, those who received a OTH earned it and those for whom it was a railroading are not a significant number.
From personal experience at my day job, it’s more like 99% will get rejected. Getting a discharge upgrade is akin to winning the lottery – we tell our clients up front that the chances of success are almost zero, so they shouldn’t get their hopes up.
The rate is so low that in my opinion, people should be ashamed of themselves for trying to boost membership in their failing organizations by advertising it.
The good news is that the review board doesn’t play around – if you don’t have a solid gold reason, you will get rejected. Plain and simple. There is no “join the VFW, we’ll get your discharge upgraded!” magic bullet here. Just false advertising.
I wouldn’t read too much into it.
Even the Legion requires an honorable discharge for membership, so it’s not like they’re getting much, if anything, out of the deal.
One thingnI would like to note is the fact that the VA will upgrade a BCD from a SPCM and an OTH to Honorable for VA purposes as long as the service member is able to prove that they were insane at the time of the the offense that led to discharge. You would be very surprised at how many people with PTSD, Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenia, Schitzo-Affective disorder, etc that committed acts due to mental illnesses are able to show that they tried to get help for said mental illness while on Active Duty.
Of course, committing certain offenses, or getting a BCD or a DD from a GCM is a bar to benefits.
I’m sorry though, in the geoipnI described above, many of them are not shit bags. A guy who was trying to seek help for his major mood swings that was not getting properly treated in service who then assaults a coworker because he has no control over his emotions doesn’t deserve to sit around and not receive treatment.
I don’t think the VA has the authority to upgrade a discharge.
Notice I said for VA purposes. A simple VA search would of given you the answer:
https://www.google.com/search?q=va+discharge+insanity&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS759US759&oq=va+dis&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j0l2j69i57.3056j0j7&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
Scary.
Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenia, and Schitzo-Affective disorder are a long way from PTSD.
Multiple medical journals will support this statement.
Hell, given your other comments on this topic, here’s a Captain that was convicted of numerous offenses at a GCM that the Army Court of Appeals felt wasn’t even sane enough to assist with his appellate defense due to his Schitzo-Affective disorder:
https://www.courtlistener.com/pdf/2013/12/13/united_states_v._captain_ryan_k._tomlinson.pdf
Should we put the “D” scarlet letter for dirtbag on him as well?
Not if it’s service connected. If an mental illness, not a personality disorder, is diagnosed in service, it is service connected and the veteran normally collects VA disability.
Unless the numerous Bipolar patients I have that receive VA benefits and disability are lying, which I doubt.
No shit.
Read the statement again.
Rock, huh?
No shit.
Once again, on a medical platform, they are different.
What is your qualification to see patients?
Chances are most of things are hereditary.
Once again, read the literature.
MD, PhD? PA, LPN,??
The statement wasn’t directed at you, it was directed at “D”. I apologize for responding at the wrong level.
I’m a NP.
Fair enough.
My apologies.
Read my comment, though, if you would.
Just tired of bumping into these clowns who are faking the funk for bennies because they did not give a fuck years ago and got the “cunt (sorry ladies) punt” years past for being some sorry- ass motherfuckers.
In the end…..outside of a serious medical condition (that is not brought on by the “PTSD”)….no issue.
And documented through medical literature, secondary opinion as well as consultation with experts in the field of mental illness, and THE appropriate channels(which are hard to find in the VA). But even then, one would get Honorable if it was legit.
But everything else…..
Dude, this is not rocket science.
Shitbags.
Sorry, I should of been more clear.
The people that manifest with serious mental illness, I strongly believe wouldn’t be dirtbags in service, if properly medicated (but they can’t serve with their conditions anyway).
All I will say is that PTSD is too easy to fake. I’m usually the first in the line of people to see fakers and the ones that want benzodiazepines.
By the way, even if a mental illness may have an hereditary connection, if it doesn’t manifest until service, it’s service connected.
There’s numerous diseases, such as cancer, heart disease, etc, that we service connect everyday, but are normally hereditary.
Agreed.
But, they do not have MD/ PhD pecialist to screen before service. Cost prohibitive, if you will.
Much like baseline imaging….
But with those aforementioned issues, I can guarantee you will not get a General or OTH unless you are a shitbag on top of your medically recognized, diagnosed and understood issue (which would actually put you on the “obvious and normal”) side.
At certain points over the last decade the Army was giving some with potential PTSD a “General” Discharge because it was faster to just get rid of them that way and let the VA deal with it. A medical board would take too long.
For OTH’s, most that I know of were the quicker way to get rid of them. In the Reserves, often they were for those who wanted to ‘challenge’ the analysis but were still dirtbags, or for those who (for a while at least) stopped showing up to drill weekends and it was the policy for removing them.
Though at one point, hot-pissers were given a “get out of jail free card” and being offered a General Discharge to leave ASAP without having to worry about the OTH happening.
At certain points over the last decade the Army was giving some with potential PTSD a “General” Discharge because it was faster to just get rid of them that way and let the VA deal with it. A medical board would take too long.
The tragic thing is that this resulted from a policy designed to help them.
Used to be, you could take someone like that and give him a 5-17 “other mental issues” discharge. That would be a quick honorable discharge and he’d get his full benefits…just not the extra stuff you get with a med board.
But someone got the idea that wasn’t good enough, so as I remember it — the memory is a few years old — they slammed the breaks on that. If it looks like PTSD/TBI, they said, don’t 5-17 them; put them in the WTU and process for a med board.
The problem is that some (and it’s only some) of those fellows seem to have lost their self control after their brains got shaken around…if you’ve read about Phineas Gage (an extreme case of TBI) that is not too surprising…and they became a royal pain to deal with, and started committing misconduct…domestic violence, “self medicating,” and so on…
So, since the command couldn’t give them a quick honorable discharge for their mental issues, they’d give them a quick general discharge for their misconduct. (Misconduct chapters are either general or OTH; an honorable discharge for misconduct is extremely difficult, and when someone’s been a pain in the butt for a few months, people aren’t inclined to go that extra mile.) They’d still get the medical benefits, but lose the school money.
Sometimes the “quickest out possible” really is the best way, and the fine-tuning is done better at the lowest levels.
A lot of them became druggies and looked for a quick way out.
Believe me.
And they were given a way out.
Its not the PTSD and TBI. Its called constitution, integrity and character.
Its not the PTSD and TBI. Its called constitution, integrity and character.
Depending on which part of the brain is injured, the one can affect the other…because that is the organ in which constitution, integrity, and character reside.
Though if they do start using drugs, for sure that doesn’t help.
That is a long slide from the truth.
I have kicked these folks out.
To use this as an excuse in nonsensical at best.
TBI and PTSD do not: make you get high, have DUI’s, steal, have sex with moinors, go AWOL, cheat, lie, have affairs or act like a clown.
The lack of “constitution, integrity and character” do.
Especially in the time of stop-loss.
Also, most of them (In my own experience) were actually 5-13 discharges (if under two years TIS).
After that, this paragraph applies:
Other disorders manifesting disturbances of perception, thinking, emotional control, or behavior sufficiently severe
that the Soldier’s ability to effectively perform military duties is significantly impaired. Soldiers with 24 months or more
of active duty service may be separated under this paragraph based on a diagnosis of personality disorder. For Soldiers
who have been deployed to an area designated as an imminent danger pay area, the diagnosis of personality disorder must
be corroborated by the MTF Chief of Behavioral Health (or an equivalent official). The corroborated diagnosis will be
forwarded for final review and confirmation by the Director, Proponency of Behavioral Health, Office of the Surgeon
General (DASG-HSZ). Medical review of the personality disorder diagnosis will consider whether PTSD, Traumatic Brain
Injury (TBI), and/or other comorbid mental illness may be significant contributing factors to the diagnosis. If PTSD, TBI,
and/or other comorbid mental illness are significant contributing factors to a mental health diagnosis, the Soldier will not
be processed for separation under this paragraph, but will be evaluated under the physical disability system in accordance
with AR 635-40
IOW…a person claiming PTSD is often diagnosed as having a personality disorder and discharged under Chapter 5-17.
Two separate things.
Consult the medical literature.
Can they have an “organic” personality disorder, possibly.
And for the record, this is mostly attribute to moderate and severe TBI. Which, by the way, if this path was followed as you laid out, would end in an Honorable Discharge for medical reasons due to wounds received in combat. If not, see below:
“Chapter 5-17 covers physical and mental conditions that don’t rise to the level of medical disorders, but still impair a soldier’s ability to effectively perform his duties, such as impaired emotion control, thinking and perception, as well as claustrophobia, chronic air or sea sickness, dyslexia and sleepwalking. Prior to receiving a 5-17 discharge, the Army provides you with counseling and rehabilitation in the hope of keeping you enlisted. If you’ve been in the service for at least six years, you’re entitled to challenge the proposed discharge at a hearing before the Administrative Separation Board.”
Notice the “counseling” and “rehabilitation”part to keep you in.
In the end, it is up to the individual.
I failed to include this as well:
Under Chapter 5-17 (with refernce to Chapter 5-13):
“Section V. Characterization of Service: Soldiers separated under Chapter 5-8 and 5-17
may receive an honorable or general discharge; however, no Soldier
discharged under Chapter 5-8 or 5-17 will be awarded a general discharge
unless the Soldier is notified of the specific factors in his service record that
warrant such a characterization. Soldiers in an entry-level status (which
means they have 180 days active duty service or less) may receive an
uncharacterized description of service.
Soldiers separated under Chapter 5-13 will not receive a general discharge
unless they have been convicted of an offense by general court-martial or
convicted by more than one special court martial in the current enlistment,
period of obligated service, or any extension thereof.
True, but we know for a fact that people with PTSD were discharged under 5-17 as personality disorders out at Madigan (Ft Lewis) and Walter Reed to “get them out of the system” according the IG. GOs were fired over that one. So, yes, there may be some who got the shaft on this one.
There is a vast difference between what is wrong with people in the clinical world and what the adminiweenies do with them.
They were discharged probably because they were shitbags or had other issues.
And if a GO ordered that, I would hire him/her any day.
My best guess is that they were fired from misappropriations or just a bad command climate/leadership. Not getting rid of shitbags.
OTH = Shitbags.
Period.
It all about the freebies. Most did not care then but they care now.
Odd how that works.
Fuck ’em.
And for the record: General Discharge = Shitbag as well.
Depends on your time and unit. I’ve known one unit that got “chapter happy” after a bad experience on deployment (and I think they considered themselves a cut above everyone else anyway), so that it almost seemed they wanted every Art. 15 to come with a chapter attached.
I heard one of their senior NCO’s commented that the Army was downsizing, so he apparently considered it his personal mission to accomplish that downsizing by means of chapters…
But if it had been a few years earlier, when we were harder up for manpower, a lot of those troops would’ve been kept.
(It may not help that some of the harsher rehab methods, such as the CCF’s, are gone…if you’re not allowed to whip them back into shape, getting rid of them may be the only way.)
They were punting them out heavily between 2001 and 2008.
I think it depends on where you were…in 04-05 I saw a lot of first-time drug offenders retained (even though you had to initiate a chapter); but by 09-10 almost every drug hot was an immediate ticket out. But I can only speak to the places where I was.
Lower Enlisted always got two strikes (for the most part)for drug, alcohol and other Field Grade (non-violent) offense.
Junior NCO’s: One strike (most times)
Senoir NCO’s and Officers: Later.
I don’t doubt that was true where you were…but by 2009-11 I was seeing units with a “no strike” rule for lower enlisted, or even NCOs if it was drugs.
That’s why I’m not ready to say that every general discharge, across the whole vast bulk of the Army, was someone who got multiple strikes but kept proving his worthlessness.
We had a 1LT and an E-4 come up hot on the same piss test in 2000 in Bosnia. The E-4 was retained, but wasn’t allowed to reenlist (also 45 and 45, 1/2 mo pay for two months, etc etc)
The O-2 was given a desk job at Eagle Base, a (REALLY) bad OER, and was wearing Captain bars two years later.
They should have kicked the 0-2 out.
We had an 0-2 piss hot in country and then blame someone for putting something in his beer. Yeah. You read that right.
He was given a letter in the file and never promoted. Needless to say, he got out at the end of the/his commitment.
I can remember back in the day when we had the WTU “in house”.
We also had the “DCU” in house: the Dirtbag Collection Unit. This was comprised of everything cleared off of the 162’s to include: sexual offenders, druggies, deserters/AWOL, drunks, thieves, cheats, wife and child beaters, etc.
The problem was that they would intermingle (as the unit was still forward deployed in most cases) and the DCU turds would borrow stories from the wounded and attempt to bullshit the doctors at the MTF’s into “hooking” them up because of the “PTSD and TBI”. And I will agree with you, some of these turds (to include leadership seeing them and having to deal with them everyday) got extremely tired of hanging around for the MED boards hence the “hurry up and get me home” option.
At that time (earlier years), many of the MTF providers had never been in service (in many cases) and if they had, had no clue of what the “line” was about unless they had been forward deployed themselves or been a Battalion Surgeon, etc.
First shitbag in line will be Miss Manning.
Who is that? I only know of Bradley.
If there is no bad paper, then good paper means nothing.
Yep
I want an upgrade from my honorable/retired….something that comes with a a whiskey allowance and a pookie delivery/disposal service.
Buy a bat and hire strippers. You’ll get both.
With the changes to the policy on homosexual conduct, are folks discharged on those grounds a slam-dunk for upgrades?
I’m pretty sure they got Honorable Discharges.
A couple thoughts:
First off, Alberich’s argument that at some point people with hot UA’s got a second chance while some did not and therefore those who did not deserve an upgraded discharge is just non-sense. You commit a crime and get caught you take your chances and there are always a lot of disparities with punishments..this isn’t TV.
This is another reason for me to not join these so called VSOs.
Though I have great sympathy for those truly suffering from PTSD we all know that PTSD is being used to excuse lots of bad behavior/failure by those who do not actually have PTSD.
If you have bad paper you did it to yourself and despite the sea stories/barracks lawyer stories about innocents being rail roaded few if anyone with bad paper did nothing to deserve it even if others got a better outcome…roll the dice and take your chances with the result.
This is a bad decision by any VSO that embarks on this trail at a time they are already suffering a credibility problem many Veterans from their lack of member screening.