The Army wants LAVs
Someone sent us a link to the Military Times in which they report that the 82d Airborne Division is testing the Marine Corps’ Light Armored Vehicle 25 as an armor asset for the division. Yeah, I’m old enough that I remember when the division had an armor battalion equipped with Sheridan tanks. I also remember the time that they demonstrated delivering a palletized tank to the Sicily drop zone and it slid into the stands causing quite a few casualties.
The LAV is an eight-wheeled vehicle that weighs 31,000 to 38,000 pounds, depending on the variant. The models being tested by the 82nd Airborne have a 25 mm gun. The vehicles also use a three-person crew and can carry an additional six troops, according to General Dynamics Land Systems data.
The Marines have sent four LAVs for testing and training by soldiers at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, said John Myers, the deputy program manager for the Marines’ LAVs. Three other LAVs are at General Dynamics, the private company that produces the LAV and Stryker, where they are being modified for air drops, he said.
General Dynamics Land Systems has already delivered one of the modified LAVs and expects to have the other LAVs ready in the next few months for a scheduled air drop, likely at Fort Bragg, in November, said Michael Peck, director of the company’s Enterprise Business Development.
This is the first time Peck knew of, he said, that any military client requested the LAV be used in an airdrop. But the company did its own successful airdrop tests of both the LAV and the Stryker in the early 2000s.
In my opinion, they should give up on the air dropped vehicle and just focus on a light weight vehicle tthat can be delivered by landing an aircraft. I’ve had some experience with air dropping smaller vehicles (jeeps, specifically) and it rarely work well.
Category: Army News
Bring back the M22 Locust tank transported in a Hamilcar glider…
(As a retired combat historian, I couldn’t resist)
Hey, the Waco CG4 was good for that, you know – troops, jeeps, supplies.
Bring back the Assault Transport Gliders!!!!
A Waco was good for jeeps/supplies/troops, but you’ll need a big boy like the Hamilcar to handle a light tank…
Here is an interesting idea on that.
http://logisticgliders.com/
Okay, I’ll concede the Hamilcar but the Waco could also carry the fuel and crew for the tanks. And food. And, and, and ammo, and stuff.
Agreed. Let’s lobby the 82d Airborne Division to bring back the Waco glider and glider infantry…!!!///
Absolutely. I’m up for that!
People are rebuilding them, sometimes from plans, anyway, so why not just go whole hog on this?
Here we go: the Hamilcar glider could easily carry an LAV.
Other than the LAVs amphibious capabilities, I wonder why they aren’t just using Strykers which we already have.
Or for that matter, if that means they are going to bring back the Airborne Armor units. I know originally they were supposed to replace the M551 with the M8 Buford, but then they just said fuck it.
Sorry I hit the wrong button.
The LAV is lighter. It’s not necessarily the vehicle, it’s the mobility and firepower it brings. If you remember, the striker was never meant for anything other then an interim combat vehicle for the FCS. That got cancelled, war broke out, and the striker filled a need. It lacks fire power however. Now before the striker guys come out, yea I know, it’s only supposed to transport troops. However, that 25mm is a bad hombre. This will be going to the Cavalry Squadrons. They need the speed, maneuverability , and fire power it will provide. Sometimes you have to fight for information.
Stryker is overcomplicated, a maintenance nightmare due to all the fancy systems, and basically unarmed. A .50 in this day and age on an armored vehicle is stupid. The LAV is not as high speed and low drag, but in Marine hands it performs very well. Proof you don’t necessarily need all that fancy complicated shit to make war.
The upgunned Dragoon Stryker has a 30mm HRWS up top, so bigger cannon but without the turret so it can still transport a full Army dismount squad.
I also beg to differ on it being complicated. The Stryker is the US version of an LAV 3. Same family as the LAV25, just no amphib capability.
They are extremely easy to maintain and a lot more comfortable than any other vehicle out there.
Smitty,
I had to look that M-8 up, Id never heard of it before, well the M8 Greyhound, yep, but not a Buford.
There ought to be some kind of lightweight, fast vehicle for the Airborne that with a direct fire weapon that packs a wallop. I never served in a unit equipped with Sheridans, but a friend of mine was a PL in the mid-80’s and he said firing the main gun on that critter was like being a car wreck. One of my drill sergeants talked about how the Shillelagh missile didn’t always work as advertised.
Im not sure whats out there at the moment that could fill this role. I was a “line” guy who spent his armored time in Armored Cavalry Regiments. Never gave much thought to this particular issue.
Closest would be the MGS currently, but doing a full drop with one would probably turn it into a lawn dart.
FYI, If you watched the Liam Niesson version of the A-Team, the airborne tank they dropped in wasa digital Buford.
If they want something to zip in and out of traffic with and look cool at the same time, just bring back the M706 V100 Commando Car.
Just load it up with a 20mm, a Ma Deuce and a couple of 7.62mm mini-guns and you’re good to go.
A TOW or a Hellfire would be nice too.
It’s not the dropping that’s the problem it’s that sudden stop on the ground that wrecks most of those vehicles.
It requires some serious retooling to take something not made for airdrops and suddenly rethink every aspect of it for airdrops…it isn’t just the suspension elements either, it’s engine mounting systems, electronics components and their housing systems, weapons systems…
It does no good to retool the suspension frames, shocks, springs, only to find out the steering box collapses under impact.
I seriously thought that was working, if the vehicle was rigged with the collapsible cardboard (hexacomb) supports.
Kicking it out the back (or dragging it out with a drogue I guess) of a C-130 looks really cool, and it doesn’t require an airstrip, just clear area that’s big enough. Yeah, I get the feeling it’s hard to do right, especially since they don’t do it anymore since there was a serious accident.
I used to work with a guy who had been a Sheridan tank crewman in the 82nd Airborne Division.
He never had anything good to say about the Sheridan tank.
He also said that every time that they tried to airdrop Sheridans via parachute, or aerial delivery via LAPES, they inevitably damaged most of the tanks involved.
But the Good Idea Fairy said it would work!
That same dipshit fairy said that about communism as well, it’s good in theory so it should work….until they round up and kill the dissidents.
Maybe that fairy needs a good beating to get squared away.
I’m trying to remember if we had Sheridans in Dominican Republic. We were rigged to jump but the airfield was secured at the last minute and we landed…but the AF was antsy so they barely slowed down the taxi and pushed the vehicles out. Bear to get them off the honeycomb. I think I saw them making runs into the bad lands but maybe not…maybe it was Cav M151s. Geeze out.
SJ, Sheridans were first issued in 1967, and entered use in Vietnam in Jan 1969, so there would have been no Sheridans in the Dominican Republic Operation in 1965…
Ahhh. But I’ve seen them somewhere. I thought. I don’t think the 1/101 or 3/82nd had them when I was with them in the Viet of Nam. But then I’m a geezer. Thanks for the info.
Didn’t the 82nd have some kind of tracked vehicle in the ’63-65 era?
Probably thinking of the M56 Scorpian SP anti-tank gun…
Bingo. Thanks again.
Only the 173d used the M56 in Vietnam. Specifically D Co, 1/16 Armor (Before and after Vietnam they were Cavalry). While the 101 and 82nd also had them (also in 1/16,) they never saw combat with the Scorpion.
They have one at the Armor Resoration Yard at Ft Benning if anyone ever gets down that way.
Possibly the M113? The 1/509 and 2/509 in Germany had them.
I am old enough to have ridden on top of the Sheridan as a breach team. Talk about getting yelled at during NTC/JRTC. Its how we fought. Than they all were blown up on the AT/Demo range. And the AGS replacement was canceled under the Clintons. Similar to the Kiowa scam.
OT, the Stryker is apparently getting a buffed up gun. Army wants to drop the 50 cal in favor of the 30mm.
I wonder if Anniston Army Depot has a warehouse full of 105 mm gun from upgunning M1s. Naw, probably not.
That 105mm gun needs the mass of a tank to restrain it.
There are big-bore guns for light vehicles, but they tend to have way less punch, and a much higher mass of recoil buffering.
Not much good if the first round ejects the gun out the back of the vehicle…..
The MGS has the 105. It rocks the vic but it uses it just fine.
Interestingly the 82nd had a dozen or so LAV-25s during the first Gulf War.
Jonn, one LAPES accident at Sicily and you are willing to give up on airdrop? The systems used now are much safer and more reliable than the stuff we used in the 70s and 80s. I think keeping an eye on airdrop feasibility with any new weapon system that could be potentially employed at a hotspot without LZ support is worth studying.
Just sayin’.
No, no, no! We need the Waco glider transport system revived. Find a spot, land if you can, open the nose, dump the junk and wait for a DC4 to come along and grab the towline. Or just run to the nearest troop position and start shooting.
Bring back the assault transport gliders!!!!
Yeah but Ex-PH2, if’n they bring back the gliders, then all the posers will won’t one of these. We were actually allowed to wear one of these on our cu.., ah, er, overseas caps when I completed jump school in 1969.
http://sogsite.com/PM0582.jpg
Trivia question.
What is the difference between the Officer’s one and the Enlisted one?
Crap!!
“want” not “won’t”!! (must have gotten too much “dairy-air” out here yesterday while cutting lawn).
Sky, Was there a difference? I wore it in the 60’s. Maybe the officer’s was on the left of the piss cutter and enlisted on right? I don’t think so but I can’t remember what I had for breakfast.
http://www.usarmypatches.com/Airborne.htm I forgot that. Another site says: The officer’s version had to be worn on the right side of the cap, to allow insignia of rank to be worn in the usual spot on the left side. Thus, the glider flies in the opposite direction from that on the enlisted version, as their patch was worn on the left side. In this manner, the glider always appears to fly toward the front of the wearer.
(cut & pasted)
The officer’s version had to be worn on the right side of the cap, to allow insignia of rank to be worn in the usual spot on the left side. Thus, the glider flies in the opposite direction from that on the enlisted version, as their patch was worn on the left side. In this manner, the glider always appears to fly toward the front of the wearer.
During the history of the glider/chute patch, the location on the cap varied some. Some units wore the patch all on the left or right side making no difference if you were enlisted or an officer.
http://www.101airborneww2.com/insignia.html
(scroll down about two thirds of the page)
After I completed jump school, I remember hearing about a young officer having a enlisted glider patch sewn on the right side of his cap making the glider appear to be flying to the rear inside of flying forward.
Just drop them on the enemy without chutes.
Actually, I think the Marine Corps air dropped a few LAVs from CH-53s. But maybe that wasn’t the intent.
Yup.
A few LAVs, Hummers, and a couple of M-198s as well, have all been drop tested from USMC CH-53Es over the years.
They also pickled an AH-1T during an aircraft maintenance recovery external lift out on the West Coast back in the ’80s.
Apropos of almost nothing, British Leyland once did an ad wherein they dropped an MGB on a pallet – the first time they did it the chute failed to open properly and the car landed flat on its roof and ended up about a foot thick. Second time worked much better and I saw the ad aired in the ’70s. The first version, however, was definitely thought-provoking.
So we’ve come full circle. Back in the early 80s Army was looking at the LAV for the light Infantry Division. I always thought Congress told Army to drop it and give them to the Marines, but e4vidently Army made a budget decision unilaterally. In any event TACOM buys for the Marines, so there shouldn’t be a learning curve except at the operator level.
My favorite one is the Jeep?/4 wheeled vehicle (I can’t tell what it is mostly because it’s broken down for airdrop configuration) but the one that breaks free from it’s LAPES configuration and rolls off the pallet and goes screaming across the drop zone all Benny Hill like.
Chip, I think the one that goes all Benny Hill is one of those heavy duty Rough Terrain Forklifts.
10K AT? Yeah I drove those.
yeah, it DOES look like that but it’s so grainy and the cab is off. I thought about that.
thought it was a Gama Goat at first and was thinking ‘that’s the fastest a Goat ever went!”
And I guess I’m going to have to be the one to post this.
NSFW Language
During an airdrop on a military base in Hohenfels, Germany, three HMMWV’s somehow detached from their parachutes and crashed into a million pieces, The Tactical Air Network reports
Unrelated, that picture is Property Book Officer Porn: everything he/she was short was on that vehicle, including Post, Camp and Station stuff. If it had burned it would REALLY be gold.
Yeah, I sorta thought about that discussion from a while back.
& I think I counted three HMMVs that went splash. Bad day for the tax payers.
Yep, THREE perfectly good Tactical Vehicles turned into scrap metal.
As an NCO who spent 18 months in the 101st and 4 years in the 82nd I’d be curious to know the rank and duty position of, “Laughing Boy”, on the video. If he was from any unit involved in the drop, he could use a professional attitude adjustment.
Or…….they could bring back the Gamma Goat, make it air droppable and have that tote a “BAG” (Big Assed Gun) around behind it along with some miner carts for the troops. Could always use it later for giving free rides to the locals in the AO after things calm down to build up friendly relations.
Naaah, maybe not.
How about air droppable individual operator vehicles like these?
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0066d779e3f564191c4d50867885ee13-c
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cb2a16d66f34eb8345c02956ad966199
Way back time here. As a 45K I trained on the M551 Sheridan and the M60A2 in AIT. Yes, the A2. Funny thing is both of those bastard creations carried the 152mm Gun/Launcher. When I was assigned to Ft. Riley after AIT we had one Cav troop that still had the M551’s. Not an A2 in site.
All I remember now is that you could take the 152mm down just by firing it. The last time I saw Sheridan’s was at the NTC being used by the OPFOR. We used to find expended Shillelagh missiles all over the range.
This ranks up there with the recent fielding of the Carl Gustav.
Great piece of kit, but why wait 30+ years to field it?
We used to have the 90mm recoilless rifle but that was taken away from the gang. Every body wanted disposable stuff/AT4.
Until everyone had to carry and use them.
The Sheridans were bivouaced next to us in Port-au-Prince in 1994. They worked most of the time. I’ve got some photos of that somewhere. We used to hang out with those guys all the time. Not much else to do at Bowen Airfield. They were in the air and ready to drop, but got turned around and eventually flew in to POrt-au-Prince intl and drove off the planes. That’s probably why they worked.
How about asking the Brits for some CRV(T)’s to test?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Vehicle_Reconnaissance_(Tracked)