Why your kid’s doctor needs to know if you own a gun
The Washington Post prints an opinion piece n their pages by Angelica Zen and Alice Kuo, a doctor and a professor, entitled Do you own a gun? Why your kid’s doctor needs to know. Typically, the authors assume that you’re a boob and that a doctor and a professor know more about guns, storage of said guns, storage of ammunition and general gun safety than you know. They start from a point would have been inconceivable eight years ago – being that gun ownership is a public health care issue.
Last month, I had to jump through my ass to find a doctor willing to sign a piece of paper which said that I was fully capable of driving with my disability. It didn’t ask doctors whether I could parallel park, but if I was medically capable of driving without going into a coma. I couldn’t find a doctor willing to sign it because they were afraid that they would be held liable for any accidents that might occur. Now they want to inject themselves into the gun debate? How does that liability look?
In 2011, after a lobbying push by the National Rifle Association, Florida passed the Firearm Owners’ Privacy Act, restricting physicians from asking about gun ownership and from counseling about gun safety in routine appointments. Potential penalties include fines, suspension and loss of a medical license. A federal judge blocked the law as an unconstitutional restriction of doctors’ speech. Then an appeals court panel overturned the ruling, emphasizing patients’ rights to own guns and to privacy.
This Florida case is just the latest example of how the politics of guns have affected physicians’ ability to bring science to bear on what experts can see plainly: That gun violence is a public health issue.
Yeah, well, there’s the problem – it’s not a public health issue – it’s a public safety issue. There have been a number of tragic incidents recently in which toddlers were able to injure people with firearms, the good doctor and the professor make mention of some of them in their article. But they were not incidents that doctors would have been able to predict or interceded in given an opportunity to question their patients as to their gun ownership. Doctors are no better than anyone else in discussing gun safety.
It’s like teachers thinking that they have a responsibility to teach kids to put condoms on bananas – just because they have a lot of classroom education, that doesn’t make them experts on everything under the sun. If states want to require a gun safety program for gun owners, well, that’s fine, but authorizing doctors to question their patients about guns will only cause mistrust in that relationship, like there is not enough mistrust in that relationship already.
Thanks to Chief Tango for the link.
Category: Guns
As I get older and older I am already telling my doctor a lot of shit I’d rather not discuss with anyone ever…if he starts asking about my personal life beyond what I’m telling him, I’m getting a new doctor.
One of the best lessons I learned early from a very nice nurse I knew was that we pay the doctor, not the other way around so if they don’t do what you want or act the way you want fire them and start with a new one…I’ve never kept a doctor that I didn’t like to talk to because I want to be as comfortable as possible discussing that which is uncomfortable.
If I mention I want to kill myself a question about guns is probably okay, if I mention the fact the bone spurs in my heels ache for two days after every refereeing weekend the next question from the doc better not be about whether or not I own a gun…but what can we do to remove the spurs or manage the inflammation…
My kids are all grown up so they know nothing about what’s at my house in that regard and this doesn’t have any effect on me, but it seems a massive invasion in privacy and inappropriate. Since more kids drown than get shot a more appropriate question might be whether or not the family has a pool or access to a body of water and what security measures are available to avoid accidental drowning…
It would be nice if we can stop being stupid about firearms and start being smart about a lot of what actually kills Americans…along with firearms there are a host of bad outcomes for children based on simple household items.
I have a doctor that I am treating like a green colt, lol. Apparently, he’s not used to the word ‘no.’ I use it a lot with him. And I tell him why I am using it, too. I feel like it’s my responsibility to train him for the next patient. Other than the medical arguments we get into, we get along great. 🙂
And he is a very good doctor, despite his rather straitlaced ways of looking at things.
How in hell does it violate the Dr’s free speech when the s.o.b.’s are supposed to recognize a “privileged information between doctor and client”…these double talk bas-ards!
“[J]ust because they have a lot of classroom education, that doesn’t make them experts on everything under the sun.” Or ANYTHING under the sun.
I’d love to have an MD or RN try to explain gun safety to me for fear that junior might be in danger. Before they could get the first sentence out I’d have a few gun safety questions of my own for them. I doubt that they would get past the second one.
Careful. Don’t fall into the same trap as the antis by making generalizations about someone’s level of knowledge on firearms because of their profession.
I’m a certified Range Safety Officer as well as working as an RN for the past 20 years.
That said… When I’m at the hospital, the only time I would have a problem with you owning a gun would be if you were waving around in my ER.
Actually, I now think of you as a Range Safety Officer who also works as an RN. The percentage of med personnel who are firearms enthusiasts is probably about the same percentage of med personnel who did not vote for oBaMa.
You’d be surprised at the percentage of conservative, gun owners I work with, the majority of which aren’t fans of the current administration. That said, I have to admit, it helps to live in the South. ?
which hospital? I wanna go there so I feel safe if and when I get screwed up and gotta go to ER.
My GF is a pediatric RN and is very competent with her handguns. And she’d agree with you Ray. If her doctor asked her about her firearms, she’d ask what qualifies him to inquire.
True…and many of us don’t want to ask the fukking question anyway.
Having small children in the house again, who I might add are very nosey, curious, and apt to take things without asking, and doing things that they should not be as they possess the common sense of a rock… I decided that I would before bringing any gun into the home purchase a gun safe that they would not be able to gain access to.
I need a bigger safe, but that is another story…
No one needs to know if I own a gun, or how many I have, where they are, or how they are stored in my home except myself.
I have had to deal with enough State Sponsored BS infringement on my Rights as it is.
Unfortunately there are idiots out there, but it is not a health crisis that our pediatrician needs to be concerned about. The number of children who are killed in gun accidents is incredibly small when compared to other far more common causes of accidental death. Not to make light of any accidental death, but they are making more out of this based purely on politics, and that is wrong.
You don’t necessarily need a new gun safe. It is perfectly appropriate to use a lockable trunk that you can buy in numerous places or just build a wooden box with at least one or more locks on it.
That in itself is enough to get the kids to go to their next conquest until they are old enough to understand what a gun is and what to do if they ever find one.
Eddie the Eagle from the NRA has great programs for kids with guns and all of the information is free on the NRA website. You do not have to be a member to get the information.
As my dad always told me and it has followed me through the rest of my life. “You can never know too much about gun safety.”
I have never had a negligent discharge and I will not allow myself to have one… Period…
I must confess to a few “negligent discharges” in my yute.
But never with my firearms……
And you hadda?
There are some doctors that are rather narrow minded and will blame their pet affliction for whatever ails you.
Back in the day I went on sick call for a really sore side. We’d played a rather rough game of touch football for PT that day and I’d got popped pretty hard in the rib cage. The doc asked if I smoked, I said yep, and he pronounced that as my problem and tried to order me to smoking cessation classes.
That night Mrs. NBC took me to the ER where X rays showed a cracked rib. Musta been pulling too hard on my smokes.
Mister or Miz liberal busy body doctor or nurse asks too many stupid questions about guns in my house, and it might very well end up being a health issue.
Short answer: they don’t need to know that – it’s irrelevant to providing medical care. Asking is an invasion of privacy.
The correct thing to do is – when the question is asked of either adult parent – tell the doctor exactly that. If they persist, find another doctor and inform them precisely why you are doing so. Filing a professional complaint with the local medical licensing authorities might also be a good addendum.
If they ask the child, the child should tell the doctor the following: “My Mom and Dad say you need to ask them that question.” And absolutely nothing else.
I just lie and say nope, none whatsoever.
Turn the onus back on them…
Ask the doctor if he wants a malpractice suit. That should shut him up about guns.
I figure that the only people I would ever talk to about whether or not one is even necessary to own in the general area where I live would be the local police. They seem to be people with a lot of common sense, but they aren’t from Chicago, so that might account for it. Even then, I’d talk to them about pepper spray first.
But a doctor? Ask her/him/it what it’s afraid of.
I don’t have problem with the question. I don’t have to answer or if I feel it is none of their business I might just say “no”. End of subject.
“But we [doctors] and the parents have a mutual interest in preventing gun accidents involving their children.” Well, that’s nice. Unfortunately, the statement rings hollow, given that a slew of other things are much more likely to result in a child’s death. Do the MDs have a mutual interest in asking about a patient’s driving record? How about whether the patient keeps plastic baggies in a locked drawer? Do they ask whether medicines are under lock and key and disposed of properly at expiration? “Do you own any matches or lighters?” is a question not asked. How about, “Do you own a pool?” I do not advocate that these questions ought to be asked. My point is that they are much more pertinent questions to be asked if the concern is truly child safety, but it’s not.
The reason this is becoming such a “medical” issue is because the liberal Democrat appointed to the position of Surgeon General of the United States by Obama has made it a priority. That’s why he was Obama’s choice.
It is clearly a political issue, another stealth move by liberal Democrats to determine gun ownership. And their only reason for that is to ease the path of future confiscation when they get a favorable Supreme Court ruling.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/395842/surgeon-generals-gun-problem-timothy-wheeler
Had a doctor as me if I had any guns in the house. I asked if he was a certified NRA firearms safety instructor.
When he said no I told him that he had nothing to offer me when it comes to gun safety and that maybe he should stay in his own lane from now on.
Got a different doctor after that.
OTOH, my kids doctor is awesome. I was breaking in a new holster and he saw it and said “1911?”
“Yep.”
“Great pistol.”
Which got us off on a ten minute discussion of what we like and who’s making good pistols. He is now searching for a Rock Island 1911.
First of all, the first answer to any such nosy question is, “NONYA”.
The second answer to the same question would be, “Fuckin’ NONYA, asshole.”
And then find another doctor.
As for the NRA passing legislation in Florida, well, that’s all nice and good, but I see that as trying to justify the NRA bureaucrats job, paycheck, and existence. What would have been better for the NRA would have been an education and billboard campaign saying, “If your doctor asks about your guns. . . . “.
Jonn, I read that article. I thought about it and couldn’t create a focused reply. You hit it, thanks for that.
The next person who asks me if I own a gun, I’m going to ask, “Do you own a gun?” Put the shoe on the other foot. They will have to think:
What do I know about this guy?
Is he going to write down my answer?
If no, is it safe for me to say “no”?
If yes, is it any of his business?
Maybe they will think, “I should not ask that question”.
Like Jonn said, a doctors office is a place to discuss health – private or public. A conversation about guns is not a discussion about health.
MD/PA: “Do you own a gun?”
“Why?”
MD/PA: “It’s the law. I have to ask the question, sir.”
“Oh. I see. Well, I am compelled to ask you whether you were accepted and graduated from an American medical school and what your GPA was. Also, I would like to know whether you have ever been charged with malpractice or subjected to discipline. And one last thing: do you use alcohol or drugs?
Answer from MD…”Well ah, okay then Mr. 2/17 Air Cav, what ah, what brings you in to see me today?” As he smiles sheepishly.
It goes both ways.
Not sure of the year (I believe 1998), but:
From the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services:
Accidental Deaths per doctor: 0.171
Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.000188
You are 909 times more likely to die from a medical accident than a gun accident….
what’s the stat, that something like 600,000 people die every year from medical misadventure like malpractice, doctor error, mis-prescription, etc. Given that non-suicide gun deaths are literally 1/60th of that, seems to me they should clean their own house first.
Remember, half the doctors you meet graduated in the bottom 50% of their class.
If my doctor asked me that and couldn’t tell me the difference between condition 1 and condition 3, the difference between a double action and DAO, or some other pertinent questions… the conversation will be short and pungent.
“Remember, half the doctors you meet graduated in the bottom 50% of their class.” Yep–and many could not gain acceptance into a US medical school so they attended school in Italy or–dare I say it–Grenada.
What do they call the guy who graduated dead last in his medical school class?
“Doctor”.
Do you know the four kinds of doctors?
There’s the psychiatrist, who knows nothing and does nothing;
There’s the internist, who knows everything and does nothing;
There’s the surgeon, who knows nothing and does everything;
And then there’s the pathologist, who knows everything and does everything…just too late.
Yes, a doctor told me that joke!
Forgot one, PN: the proctologist, who really knows and understands . . . . well, nevermind. (smile)
Everybody makes fun of a proctologist (Gastroenterologist)until they need one. lol
True. But that one seemed to fit too well to pass up. (smile)
lol….very true. I like the jokes.
he Psychiatrist and Proctologist
Two doctors, a psychiatrist and a proctologist, opened an office in a small town and put up a sign reading:
“Dr. Smith and Dr. Jones: Hysterias and Posteriors.”
The town council was not happy with the sign, so the doctors changed it to read,
“Schizoids and Hemorrhoids.”
This was not acceptable either, so in an effort to satisfy the council, they changed the sign to
“Catatonics and High Colonics.”
No go.
Next, they tried
“Manic Depressives and Anal Retentives.”
Thumbs down again.
Then came “Minds and Behinds.” Still no good.
Another attempt resulted in
“Lost Souls and Butt Holes.”
Unacceptable again!
So they tried “Analysis and Anal Cysts.”
Not a chance.
“Nuts and Butts?” No way.
“Freaks and Cheeks?” Still no go.
“Loons and Moons?” Forget it.
Almost at their wit’s end, the doctors finally came up with:
Dr. Smith and Dr. Jones, “Odds and Ends.”
Everyone loved it.
Three Doctors were attending a colleague’s funeral. The one being laid to rest was a Cardiologist and one flower arrangement was made to look like a heart. The Gynecologist chuckled about what his would look like, ditto with the Dentist.
The Proctologist simply fainted.
Great old joke. However,He still had to pass all the boards and complete residency. Even the student at the bottom of the class probably had a B average.
and the grenada (St george’s) medical school is a fine school. Not all foreign schools are that good, but St George’s is as good as any american school.
St Georges is, in fact, about the best, if not the best, of the lot. Still, the rate of first-time boards passers sucks overall and St Georges has a sweetheart deal with stateside hospitals for residencies. Many a Caribbean med school graduate remains degree-d and unemployed, compared with their American med school counteraparts.
St George’s first time pass rate is 97%..that’s higher than the US Average of about 95%
And if they can’t get residency in a private hospital, they can join the military or work for the government….
Not completely tru Eric.
Government physicians still need to pass the same boards as well as obtain an unrestricted medical license from one of the 50 states. To get an unrestricted medical license you’re going to have to at least participate in and pass an internship.They can then apply for residency training through the military.
You can’t go to a foreign medical school or an american medical school and get a medical license without follow on training.You can’t be a military GMO without passing the step exams and doing an internship.
and btw many of the “military” residency programs involve the military resident integrating into a civilian program. After residency…they still take the same boards for certification in the specialty.
There’s really nothing easy about it from what I’ve seen.
Its just no fun when someone takes my cynicism and sarcasm and spins them into reality. Gosh!
damn….sawwwrrry
You might want to change your tag to IDC Serial or IDC Super Serial for this post. lol
Yeah, I’ve been pooping in and out….can’t remember what I wrote and didn’t.
Damn students are distracting me.
poooping…popping…dammit
I never had a problem that my son knew I owned weapons and kept them safely stored. He knew from an early age, when dad said something, he meant it. Period, end of discussion.
Now fast forward to today’s society. With the kids and parents I see in grocery stores, and the kids behaviors I encounter, I wouldn’t trust them with a sharp piece of cardboard. Much less where a weapon was. But then their parents are of the same ilk whom I wouldn’t trust with a rubber squeak toy much less a firearm.
My belabored point I guess is this. As always it is not the weapons fault for its misuse. it is the owner’s.
These folks who want doctors in on the discussion of gun ownership are part of the bigger government, data collection mentality to control and more easily cease weapons.
As an aside, these are the same type of folks who put up a billboard I recently saw, paid for by the “Anti Vaccination League of America & Friends”. Which read, “The Greatest Lie Ever Told is that Vaccines Saves Lives & Prevent Disease…Prove It or Repeal The Law!” To which some thoughtful person had taken the time to climb up and in black spray paint written across it, “GOT POLIO?”
More and more we have become a nation of divisive minorities. No longer the melting pot of common American ideals. Minority causes, however asinine are now heard not by the majority but similar minded minority groups who lobby and litigate until they get their way. Fortunately, common sense overcame the attempt at a First Amendment stretch to second base in Florida.
Nothing and I mean nothing surprises me anymore. Only rarely do I even shake my head.
“GOT POLIO?”
spot on.lol
“These folks who want doctors in on the discussion of gun ownership are part of the bigger government, data collection mentality to control and more easily [seize]weapons.”
K-rect! This is all about culture change, using every tool available to the goose steppers in government to alter the public’s view of firearms. As soon as you hear that it’s “for the children” you can dismiss it as bullshit.
Thanks for the correction Brother. Typing faster than I was thinking. 😀
This is easy…when they ask, I tell them it’s none of their business.
Recently had a dentist ask when I had a crown that had fallen off replaced.
One last point, lest I be mistaken for someone else (not in content but in the number of thread comments.) The law may compel an MD/PA/RN to ask a question but it does not compel an answer.
Yet.
If every home that had guns were as stable as the families of the people on this board, the issue would never come up — but they aren’t. Kids from broken, dysfunctional homes are using their parent’s guns for suicide and, even more tragically, homicide. The medical profession is attempting to address that.
And no, as a general rule, medicos do not like guns. They are the ones who get to clean up the messes they make, and when you have a writhing, bleeding, possibly dying, human in front of you to try to save, you generally don’t care how they got that way, whether they were the victim or the perpetrator or the innocent bystander. That life and the attempt to save it are the only considerations at that point.
I don’t have to tell you that our society is coming apart at the seams. Doctors feel they have a responsibility to address the issues they can. Unfortunately for both privacy and freedom, they are the perfect vehicle for the government to get the information they want about the gun owners in this country. I was just asked the other day by my physician’s office if I would allow the state I live in to have voluntary access to my health records for “research purposes.” Unhuh. Research, my left hind leg.
Pinto Nag, I am fortunate to be seen by a doctor who’s wealth affords him 5 times as many weapons as I own. My kind of doctor. He was a trauma surgeon and ER trauma doc before his general practice and retained his common sense about guns and what causes their discharge.
One of my favorite ER docs was a former Vietnam medic. He would talk guns all day long, and loved to hunt. I’ve also worked with docs whose faces would set into a mask if you mentioned guns. They’re all human, and all different. You’re lucky to have one that suits your personality!
We need to start letting parents be parents this it takes a village crap has resulted in a rather whinny, self entitled, safe space, micro aggression, super sensitive, show me on the doll where the comment hurt you generation. We had guns in the house growing up, when we were smaller they were out of reach, when we got bigger I knew where they were, where the ammo was, but also made the direct correlation to having my hide tanned and touching them without supervision and respected my parents enough not to go down that road. We seem to have hit s time when no one has any responsibility for their own actions, people want to blame everything else, and some how expect more regulation to help. Any one who of course thinks more gov help will be the answer should get VA care for a year and see how that pans out. Raise kids to respect parents, law enforcement, and themselves and others and that actions have consciences and be a responsible gun owner and things take care of themselves. Most of all let parents be parents and be able to discipline their kids.
What it sounds like to me is that we need MDG certifications:
Medical Doctor of Guns.
“Do you have any firearms?” “Do you have an MDG Doc?” “Well, no.” “Then Fuck Off until you know what you’re talking about.”
So are doctors now going to ask patients if they are Muslims? Public health of course…….
Doubtful, but the physicians are often forced into these questions. The government often dictates certain questions must be asked and then checks the physician’s notes. Failure to comply results in monetary loss.
Stupid shit like that can have unexpected consequences. Recently an ER physician saw a woman for a sprained ankle. Routine stuff, no problem. However, the women had been to no other physician that year (her choice)and the ER doctor became her primary physician legally by default. Since that meant he didn’t counsel her on routine health maintenance matters (which had nothing to do with the ankle sprain anyway)he was fined.
This is the BS that results from a lack of common sense in the regulation of medicine by people that don’t practice medicine.
I’ve listened to my Docs vent about the dumb stuff they are required to do as part of their job before. I think sometimes they enjoy patients listening to their frustrations about things too.
It seems like non-medical types are telling them how to be doctors more than doctors are.
Das Rayciss.
They can only ask if you are Christian or Jewish.
Right on your answer Lol
Just ask the question back in return. See how he or she likes it.
Doc: “Do you own any guns?”
Patient: “Do YOU …. own any guns? After all, I have to know this if you are my Doc.”
Of course when the doc asks just go back to the days of being E1-E5 and top asking if you all drank etc this weekend or plan to. Why no 1SG and if we do or were drinking we would be responsible. So that was not you on the blotter report then trying to climb a fence with a beer mug in your hand and a cigar and your buddy was not on the sphinx in the courtyard drunk and in PT’s with no reflective belt on Umm no top can’t be me I don’t smoke and I am not responsible for Harrison. I did not say who it was on the sphinx. No excuse 1SG!
^^This Is Great!^^…not to hijack this thread, but it would be hilarious just to create a blog about Top’s safety briefings and the aftermaths of long weekends. Just the “hijinx” of the Commo Platoon alone would be comedy gold!
Do you own a gun?
No…that’s just my penis you’re apparently staring at.
This is my rifle; this is my gun…..
MYOB is all I can say and would love to so but in reality I guess I’d play stupid and say no
For the record, the law doesn’t prevent a doctor from asking about firearms in the home, only that they “should refrain from making a written inquiry or asking questions concerning the ownership of a firearm or ammunition by the patient or by a family member of the patient, or the presence of a firearm in a private home or other domicile of the patient or a family member of the patient.”
The law still allows for doctors to ask about whether one has a weapon if the physician thinks the information is “relevant to the patient’s medical care or safety, or the safety of others, may make such a verbal or written inquiry.”
The law doesn’t allow the physician to write down the information as a part of the patient’s record unless needed for the health and care of the patient or those around them.
The law also does not allow the physician or any medical provider to deny service because a person has a weapon or chooses not to answer any questions on weapon / ammunition ownership. Care can apparently be delayed if a first responder asks about a weapon for fear of their safety and no response is given. The care can be delayed until a police unit arrives and can insure their safety.
Here is the law in case you want to read it:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.338.html
Frankly, the law appears to me to be vague as the term “relevant” is broad in a legal sense when you are talking about a professional censure, fine or penalty. Two doctors can disagree on whether the information is “relevant” and that puts doctors in difficult situations.
Finally, the appeal of the District Court’s ruling was handled by a 3 member panel of the Eleventh Circuit. (Here’s that decision – all 154 pages of it: http://media.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/files/201214009.reh.pdf )
That panel’s decision has been vacated and the entire case will be heard by the entire Eleventh Circuit Court.
See here for the actual order: https://s3.amazonaws.com/pacer-documents/206/12-14009/01118791579.pdf
As for children being asked about family gun possession, keep this one thought in mind. ALWAYS teach your children to answer guns or other personal family questions with the answer that will have to generally given three times before those asking eventually give up. Your child’s well-rehearsed answer should ALWAYS be, “I don’t know NUTHIN’ about NUTHIN”