Blue Water Navy & Agent Orange
I have this deep and inherent distrust of the government, the way I feel that way is more simplistic than most people would think. The government is made up of people, people by nature are shady as f**k. That is until they know they are being watched and there will be accountability.
I prefaced what I really want to talk about what with the above statement because it needed to be said and this topic is somewhat controversial. I and many other who post here have always said that Jonn does not censor us. Believe me it’s the truth. I sometime call or email him with an idea that I want to write about, several weeks ago I told him I had an idea and he asked me to hold off. I did. To tell you the truth I had forgotten about it until the other day when out of the blue Jonn told me to go ahead and publish. This post is not directed at any one individual nor any group. Bernath will swear this is aimed at him. It’s not, but if the shoe fits…
Agent Orange, we all know the name and what it was for, however just in case someone has been living under a rock for the last 40 years I will give a brief explanation. Agent Orange was one of many defoliants used in the jungles and river regions of Vietnam. It is now know to be a carcinogen. For many years the government denied any link between Agent Orange and cancer and other illnesses in Vietnam Vets. Study after study proved that link exist, as a result the VA now assumes a connection between these diseases and most Vietnam Vets.
Notice I said most Vietnam Vets. There is one major subgroup of Vietnam Vets that do not get an automatic assumption of connection, Blue Water Navy. Service members in this group must prove a connection on a case by case basis. The Navy painstakingly compiled a list of all Ships that were exposed to Agent Orange in any way. That list includes ships that were in port or anchored for even part of a day. Service members on those ships are not included in the Blue water Navy Group.
The Navy did not transport Agent Orange on carriers or any other ship. With the exception of the Riverine patrol they played no part in its use. Agent Orange was applied by specially modified aircraft flying at low level. I read many boring studies researching this. I also spoke with a Meteorologist as well a Chemical engineer. The one thing that I found to be very interesting is this. Wind Patterns. Spraying occurred only at times when the weather would permit greater than 80 percent of the Agent to reach the ground in the target area. The Coastal regions of Vietnam have a predominate on shore wind pattern. That is the wind comes from the ocean most of the time. This makes the chances of Blue Water Navy exposer due to drift of overspray almost impossible. There is also the fact that the types of cancer and other illness that are occurring among the ground troops are not occurring in an increased rate among the Blue Water Vets.
Are there Blue Water Vets that were exposed? Absolutely, but not in large numbers. Many of the complaints that the Blue Water Group have can be linked to other causes. Ships have many different chemicals and toxins on them. Not all illness in vets is connected to their service. We have become a culture that looks to the government for everything possible. Many Vets abuse the system. We hear about people dying while waiting on an appointment because the system is overwhelmed. We as the veteran community bear some of the responsibility.
If your illness of disability is linked to your service then I urge you to use the VA, that’s what it’s there for. But if it’s not, then you are taking away from your Brother’s and sister’s. When we have VA disability claims for PMS or PTSD because you thought you might have to do what you got paid to do then we have a problem.
Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas and I bid you peace. I am heading to the TAH bunker at my place in western WV until the insanity is over, Oy Vey
Category: Navy, Reality Check
Hear, hear.
Not to belittle those who have been exposed, but a lot of folks see ailments as a cash cow and figure they’ve hit the litigation lotto; just look at the commercials ones sees on television on a daily basis.
The modern example of this would be the folks on the GW after Fukushima. Dozens of folks on that carrier are claiming ailments directly tied to plume exposure, despite the fact nobody got anywhere near any sort of dose needed to have even a measurable increase in long term exposure effects.
But hey, money makes people do goofy shit.
Tell us sweet lips, just how you KNOW how much exposure those sailors got? You don’t have a ph-cking clue so admit it!
First of all, you’re supposed to go file your claim with the VA as soon as you leave the service. There are, or used to be, drop-in centers that do this. Filing a claim with the VA is NOT about disability compensation. It is about getting registered with the VA for things that include the VA health care system. That’s an entirely different section.
When I left the Navy after my first hitch, I went right to the VA to file a claim so that I could get my GI bill started to finish my degree. I still have that little cardstock card with my claim number stamped on it.
Personally, I think the VA should have stuck with using its own claim number system instead of switching to Social Security numbers, because the abuse of that by ID thieves is rampant.
If they’d stuck with their own numbering system, it might work better. Was it slick willie’s idea to change that?
Thanks to the BDD program, separating service members can now submit their claims up to 180 days prior to discharge. Great program.
http://benefits.va.gov/predischarge/claims-pre-discharge-benefits-delivery-at-discharge.asp
That is new. Good idea.
VA sends a rep to ACAP at Huachuca to assist with the form. It works great
I was LUCKY that my final physical was a joint one with both Military Medicine and The VA being involved.
I thought I was a pretty healthy individual. I had over a dozen conditions, 2 of them warranted enough to get me a small disability pension. The small sum I did get was then taken out of my retirement so it was a trade off.
About 10 years after retirement I got into the VA health care system At the time I did I thought of it more of a back up plan.
Soon after that one of my service related conditions worsened to a catostrophic level, and almost took me out.
If I had been some hard headed scmuck who insisted that nothing was wrong with me and blew off that joint physical I would be screwed right now.
EX, exactly what you said and know they can do it 180 days out. The one thing we need to remember is back then troops just wanted to exit and probably did not get all the help we get now.
How you going to file a claim on agent orange when no one knew anything about it!! I am a blue water sailor, a carrier sitting at yankee station and got out in 1963, we didn’t know shyt about orange!
Check the VA’s lists of ships. I don’t know what the time frame is for exposure, but it should be listed some place.
I posted the link to the VA’s list of ships below, Ex-PH2.
Only 3 carriers of any type are listed – two ACVs and one CVE. One of the ACVs (USS Card) was mined and sunk in Saigon River harbor in 1964; the other (USS Core) delivered Army rotary-wing aircraft to Saigon in 1965, transiting the Saigon River in the process. The CVE (USS Kula Gulf) transported troops and aircraft and made a port call at Cam Ranh Bay in 1965.
I don’t believe ANY ships that deployed solely to Yankee Station are included. Only ships that served (1) close offshore, (2) made a port call or otherwise sent people ashore to/took on personnel and cargo from the RVN, or (3) deployed to riverine/inland waterway environments in the RVN appear to be included.
Yankee Station was approx 100 nmi offshore; Dixie Station, approx 50 nmi or more. The chances of exposure to Agent Orange (or any of the other Rainbow Agents) at either of those points from onshore low-level spraying operations conducted >50-100 nmi away and generally downwind (prevailing onshore winds) is, effectively, nada. That’s why the VA doesn’t include those ships as being presumptive exposure sites – like it has ships that actually were in close proximity to the coast, made port calls/delivered or took on troops and cargo, or conducted operations on inland waterways in the RVN.
I’m also thinking that most Vietnam vets who actually do have diseases linked to Agent Orange/dioxin exposure (multiple types of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, nerve disease, serious skin conditions, some others) would gladly give up their compensation and eligibility for medical care in exchange for being permanently restored to good health. But maybe I’m wrong about that.
I was just a dumb Grunt but it seems to me that filing for the GI Bill (benefit) would not be the same as filing a claim. So many things can take years to make themselves known, PTSD and AO exposure, hearing loss, arthritis from wounds or screwed up joints, whatever. I don’t know how many people on here are Vietnam Vets or Vietnam Era Vets but when I got out of the Marine Corps in 1969 veterans and active duty personnel were not held in the same high esteem as today, even by some vets of earlier wars. I served my time in I Corps and volunteered twice to go back (both turned down) and spent two years on a WWII vintage aircraft carrier. So was I supposed to go to VA on my seperation and have them start my paperwork for 40 years into the future? I’m not trying to pick a fight but I do get a little hot when I hear people go on about guys scamming the system with their AO and PTSD claims and unless I am taking things the wrong way it seems a common complaint from some folks. Semper Fidelis.
Well, when I said ‘claim’, that’s what it was called to register with the VA for any benefits of any kind in 1970, and that included the GI Bill. It was not about any specific issue, because Agent Orange toxicity had not become an issue at that time. It gained national attention when other things like asbestos exposure for people who were stationed on ships and worked in shipyards became a pathology that cause mesothelioma, or asbestosis.
Because I had good health insurance at work, I never needed to use the VA for anything other than my GI Bill for school. Now I have the most useless coverage in the world – Medicare – and the VA won’t take that as health insurance coverage. So I’m screwed, even if I’m enrolled in the VA health care system.
I just don’t recall hearing it called a claim, I guess VA was ahead of the times when they could call a benefit a claim, like SS is now an entitlement. I used the GI Bill also but don’t remember what they called it or even how I went about signing up but I think it was an office at the school.
Damn good article, Enigma4You.
One minor quibble: while uncontaminated Agent Orange does in fact appear to be a modest to moderate carcinogen, the herbicide itself isn’t the main culprit causing cancer among Vietnam vets. Rather, that is due to a contaminant present in much Agent Orange, 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzodioxin (TCDD) – the infamous “dioxin”.
Agent Orange itself is a mixture of two other herbicides: specifically, the iso-octyl ester forms of 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D) and 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T). TCDD contamination can result during the preparation of one of those two component herbicides (2,4,5-T) if the temperature during preparation is too high. That was apparently the case for some of the 2,4,5-T used to produce Agent Orange.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#Chemical_description_and_toxicology
The above isn’t intended to absolve the US government of responsibility. The dangers of dioxin contamination in 2,4,5-T were well known by the late 1950s. Further, Monsanto knew in the early 1950s that its production process often produced dioxin-contaminated 2,4,5-T – and had notified the US government of that fact.
Correct and Agent Orange was by no means the only defoliant used. There is a very interesting study that was done by Australia as well they looked at the distillation process used to make fresh water and did find that it was possible to contaminate the water supply, the problem is that the levels of the dioxin in the salt water would have had to have been far higher than anything the blue water navy was exposed to.
Yep. Agents White, Green, Blue, Pink, and Purple were also used. Plus, there were
threefour different variants of Agent Orange.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Herbicides
Agents Purple, Pink, and Green also included 2,4,5-T as a component. All of those thus were subject to dioxin contamination. Purple and Pink, being produced earlier, are generally thought to have been more highly contaminated than were the Orange variants.
Agent White had a different contaminant, hexachlorobenzene. However, while hexachlorobenzene is a carcinogen it doesn’t seem to be anywhere near as bad as dioxin.
2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D) can be bought in any farm and ranch store under the trade name 2-4-D. It is well known and well used.
When I think of dioxins, I think of electrical transformers. Not sure if the modern methods have eliminated them… every time we have a lightning and transformers blow up, I wonder.
Also, although it might be considered anecdotal, Robert Mason asserts that he sprayed Agent Orange from a UH1 Huey in his book Chickenhawk.
You’re not very likely to find dioxin in an old transformer, it’s PCB’s or Polychorinated Biphenyls that are the problem there. It’s an oil that can withstand high temperatures, thus it was used in electrical transformers until it was banned. It was marketed by GE under the brand name “Pyroil” and was even used in electric railroad locomotives, notably the Pennsylvania RR’s GG1s.
And if you’ve served at Fort Bragg since 1978, you’re very much aware of them. Or you should be.
The shoulders of number of roads on the Fort Bragg reservation were deliberately (and clandestinely) contaminated in 1978 by deliberate spraying of PCB-laden transformer oil. This time, it wasn’t the government that was responsible – it was Robert, Timothy, and Randall Burns.
The Burns clandestinely disposed of approx 31,000 gallons of the contaminated oil by spraying it along the shoulders of 240 miles of highways in 14 counties in NC. Some of those highways passed through the Fort Bragg reservation. The resulting contamination left a black “dead streak” along the road shoulder between 1 and 3 feet wide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlorinated_biphenyl#North_Carolina
PCBs are very closely related to TCDD (the “dioxin” of Agent Orange fame). The only difference is the fact that the two phenol rings in PCBs are linked by a single direct C-C bond. In TCDD, they’re double-linked through intermediate oxygen atoms: C-O-C, occurring on two adjacent carbon atoms of each ring.
Some members of both families of chemicals are toxic as hell and are carcinogens.
Transformera, breakers, capacitors, lots of stuff in electrical industry.
Makes asbestos look tame.
Yep. But to put things in perspective, the WORST PCB has only 0.1 the toxicity of TCDD. Most PCBs have a toxicity of around 0.001 or less that of TCDD.
During my days as a HAZMAT Contractor, I filled in for someone at a disposal facility (Incinerator). Barrels containing PCB residue were crushed and shipped to a HAZMAT landfill while all barrels with dioxin residue had to be shredded and burnt.
Good old Fort Bragg don’t forget the old ten inch by ten inch asbestos floor tiles held in place with asbestos adhesives. The old barrack’s were covered in them and it always seemed somebody wanted the troops to pull them out.
Not just Bragg, I remember when some old concrete barracks were scheduled for demolition on Ft. Benning and “WARNING: ASBESTOS” labels were tacked on all of the doors after the Soldiers moved out!
I don’t see any issue with the post. You wrote the truth. There are legitimate claims and there are false claims. When a false claimant takes VA time, a legitimate claimant is not being seen. Personally, I am sick and tired of the PTSD business. There are EMTs, firemen, ploice, nurses, doctors, and passersby to the scene of carnage who see much worse and manage w/o an extra check.
What do you think would happen to the PTSD numbers IF only counseling were offered, w/o an accompanying check?
Something like this, perhaps?
https://youtu.be/_anYswmGMeM
Anyone who served on say, the USS Yorktown II would be a million times more likely to suffer from asbestos exposure than they would Agent Orange.
Ya don’t say
Yeah, just thinking, and maybe the Navy did what the Army would in that day, cover up the exposed asbestos with a coat of lead based paint! 😀
Ditto for the USS Kearsarge. I cant find it on the VA’s list of ships recognized as having been exposed to Agent Orange, either.
http://www.publichealth.va.gov/exposures/agentorange/shiplist/list.asp
If there were medical issues among, say, the photographers on the Yorktown, it might be more accurate to say those conditions were cause not by Agent Orange, but by chugging too much developer.
Or by not washing their hands after handling photochemicals. But there is always a water flow in the darkroom, so keeping that stuff on your skin for more than a few seconds would be difficult. And then, there’s that whole cross-contamination thing, in which one set of chemicals (stop bath) instantly neutralizes another one (developer), which much puts the entire bit of nonsense to rest. And after the stop bath, there’s the fixer and then the rinse, so then, you have to ask: how could someone bring himself to chug something that smells so bad?
It would have to be intentional, you see, and intentional injuries are not eligible for service-connected anything, other than getting booted off the ship without going to the Reserves.
Ahh, you took me right back to high school yearbook class!
OH, that’s so sweet!
Well, they did serve “bug juice” in the galleys on ships… maybe that’s how Vietnam-era Sailors can make the claim that they were exposed to Agent Orange?
Or, it was the guy in the trench coat by the Shit River Bridge that kept opening it up to “expose” himself and went by the name “Agent Orange”?
I wish just once you guys would post an effing spew alert!
Eating while reading some of this stuff can cause stuff to evacuate food through 2-way vents!
Sorry, oh great Lioness of TAH…
I’ve posted about the AO/Blue Water Navy issue before here at TAH.
I firmly believe that there are as yet unanswered questions about the matter, and that not everyone who might be confused or concerned is also driven by some nefarious intent.
Sometimes one simply says “I wonder?”
Bernath and Dallas really dont like my article.
Who?
The same never-was-a-CPO-of-any-kind that said this on his cluster of a website:
Hmmm, I wonder why he’d all of a sudden identify himself as a “retired attorney”?
❗ ❓ 💡
UUUHHHHM, the last time I checked there was A BIG DIFFERENCE between “Retired Attorney” and “Disbarred Attorney”! 😀
Bernie Maddoff is a retired investment broker.
Let me guess – the “you’re trying to take away stuff from the 100% disabled, real deal Vietnam combat vets” line?
The truth really hurt those two because everyone knows how famous they are, via the GOOGLE pimp slap action that’s been laid on them for years.
Methinks those knaves doth it all to themselves! 😀
Faq’em.
The truth hurts.
E4U … Great article.
Keep it up!
Venison stew for dinner tonight.
Late 1967 our unit escorted an Engineer Unit (don’t recall who it was) who operated Rome Plows to cut down the jungle that was dead from Agent Orange spraying – if I recall correctly, they cut down about 50 yards (“meters” for purists) along both sides of (again, as I recall) Hywy 1 and 13. It was dry and dusty as hell at the time.
My old CO died about 5 years ago as his body was riddled with cancers. Agent Orange? Probably.
QL-13, AKA “Thunder Road” was notorious for Victor Charles` ambushing of friendlies on several long, sweeping corners. We were tasked with eliminating their cover by pushing back the jungle after, and sometimes it seemed during, defoliation.
Back in the 80s I joined the class-action suit against Montsano and Dow. In order to become eligible, I was required to get an ‘Agent Orange Screening’ which was available at my local, friendly VAMC to determine if my AO was on the list. Turned out that we were likely zapped with agents white, purple, pink, as well as orange.
Been fighting cancer for the past 5 years, but I got it good compared to several buddies, who have gone on to Fiddlers Green. RIP, brothers.
BTW…Thanks for your cover!
“BTW…Thanks for your cover!” I am humbled.
Please get well and hopefully stay that way.
Birdbath should claim all his exposure to Dutch Rudder Cocktails.