60 Minutes and Women in Combat Training
Last weekend, 60 Minutes managed to set aside its usual liberal camera and interviewing angles to film female Marine officers attempting to pass the historically secretive Combat Endurance Test, an entrance requirement to the Corps’s Infantry Officer Course. In the past, the Marine Corps has kept details of this very difficult course and its entrance requirements under wraps in the belief it is better for our adversaries not to know exactly what goes into the making of a Marine infantry officer. That the Corps allowed CBS to film as much of it as they did was surprising to many Marines. My belief is that the Corps wants the world to see firsthand that it is the physical requirements of Marine infantry officer training keeping females out, not some bull-headed misogyny, as so many feminists contend.
CBS correspondent David Martin focused on one female 2nd lieutenant, a very determined and prepared young woman, and followed her through the grueling 14-hour physical test. An overabundance of both strength and determination are essential to completing the 16-mile course that is riddled with difficult obstacles, both physical and mental. To make the test even more challenging, the candidates do it in full combat gear, which can approach or even exceed a hundred pounds. And just as the Corps has maintained since the push for women in the infantry began a few years ago, it ultimately is the combination of that weight and lack of upper body strength that keeps women from completing the course. The promising young candidate whom reporter Martin followed was done in, like so many others, by a rope climb, where upper body strength is paramount.
I watched this 60 Minutes segment and just shook my head – my belief, as a former infantry non-commissioned officer, once again confirmed that women simply are not physically suited for the unique physical needs of a combat infantryman, and not just in matters of strength. I thought nothing more about it until today, when I received an e-mail from a buddy retired in Guam that contained collected observations on the 60 Minutes piece from some of his many Marine friends around the world. Most were surprised, as I was, by the fair and balanced presentation, but some of them wished that CBS would have shown the courage to address stickier issues.
My combat was in tropical Vietnam, so I’m familiar with field conditions there. Over the years I’ve conversed with enough infantry veterans of our Middle East wars and the medics who cared for them to confirm my suspicions about field conditions in that region – particularly in Iraq, where we were fielding very large units spread over very large, remote areas of desert terrain. The one condition of infantry field conditions that has held constant from the first war our nation fought to present battlefields has been that it is a physically dirty business, an extremely unsanitary process that exceeds in filth anything you are likely ever to experience in civilian life.
Due to excessive sweating, constant contact with dirt and dust, and very infrequent opportunities to bathe, even most superficially, dermatological disease is rampant, from opportunistic fungal infections the troops refer to as “crotch rot” or “foot rot” to untreated cuts, scratches, and insect bites that become secondarily infected to the point of requiring hospitalization and intravenous antibiotics. In Vietnam, I went on patrols, set up ambushes, and conducted other ground operations with young men so filthy that their own mothers couldn’t have picked them out of a lineup. Many had open, suppurating sores and boils caused by the omnipresent thorn bushes and the unrelenting biting insects. Leeches were common, fleas and lice less so but still there.
Another constant problem on the battlefield is intestinal disorders that many times result in uncontrollable and explosive diarrhea. I couldn’t count how many times I saw a young trooper suddenly dump his gear and drop his trousers right on the trail, in full view of every member of his team. And no one thought anything of it, save the poor guy who had to squat there with his naked butt and his family jewels on full display while he loudly evacuated his bowels to the hoots, laughter, and catcalls of his team. Even routine defecation and urination are public functions for infantrymen, including officers and NCOs. When you are in Indian country, there is absolutely no expectation of privacy, or even a desire for it, because to be out of sight of your team for even minutes is to be at risk of sudden death or capture.
In spite of all the physical misery they had to endure, those tough young paratroopers I so proudly served with sucked it up, cussed their officers and the Army, and continued the mission, because they did not want to be medically evacuated, leaving their buddies shorthanded in battle. It is this “serving while sick with no privacy” aspect of service in the infantry that those of us who have lived it and survived it would like to see included in every discussion of whether or not women should serve in the infantry.
It looks like the Marine Corps is well on its way to demonstrating the validity of the lack of upper body strength issue, but it would be interesting to hear what an objective panel of gynecologists, preferably some who have served in the infantry and combat at some earlier point in their lives, have to say regarding the hygiene problems associated with menstrual events and increased risks for feminine disease that women in the infantry might experience under conditions such as I’ve described above. And now that I think of it, how about a panel of military psychologists examining the effects on young women of public urination and defecation while surrounded by grinning, highly aggressive young males, who you can bet your last dime of combat pay aren’t about to avert their eyes?
How about addressing those issues on a follow-up segment, 60 Minutes, and then another follow-up dealing with the sexual ramifications, which is another critical issue unto itself?
Crossposted at American Thinker
Category: Military issues
A certain former USAR Colonel from the Civil Affairs branch would like to have a word with you, Poetrooper.
I don’t think she’s smiling. In fact, I think she wants to take you to task and tell you you’re wrong – to Haringue you, so to speak. (smile)
As long as she doesn’t take a dump in the middle of the trail, Hondo.
I think we’ve had LO-O-O-NG discoursive discussions prior to this abut women in combat infantry, so I have no intention of hammering that again. While you make many good points, which I DO understand but
are clearly not understood by the b——- who want to put women in combat infantry, it is still going to happen, willy-nilly.
I will only add these things to what I may have said in prior discussions.
– Women backpackers solved the problem of public urination some time ago with a funnel-like product called a GoGirl or SheWee (depending on where you buy it), which allows women with no access to bathrooms to take a leak in the bush. It does not require dropping pants. Regarding public defecation, those women who manage to get through this successfully will have to have very thick skin and learn how to hand it back.
– Since there are many biomechanical exoskeletons under development, mostly aimed at getting paraplegics back on their feet, applying these to compensate for lack of upper body strength in women is a possibility.
– If the military in general actually wants to do this, they’d better start recruiting women powerlifters for the job. Otherwise, it will be picked up by transgendered men.
Our military now exists to serve the wants and whims of the individual. Good of the service is no longer even considered.
It’s a good thing we’ve already demonstrated that, as a people and a culture, we have no interest in winning wars under any circumstances or for any reason anymore.
You know, as usual, Ex-PH2, you’re probably right. The Obama administration will think nothing of spending $40,000 to $150,000 for an exoskeleton that will allow an infantrywoman to do what your average male infantryman can do without any assistance and zero extra costs.
http://cydro.hubpages.com/hub/Military-Exoskeletons-and-their-Progress
It’s kind of like paying $30 a gallon for green fuel for naval vessels. Hey, who’s counting?
One good thing about it is that they will have somewhere to hang their GoGirls and SheWees to dry out without dripping down their backs. You know, I’d sure like to see a butt-wiping demonstration in an exoskeleton.
Now if they issued one EXO per fire team and let a female operate it, that might fly because the EXO could carry all the rucks, ammo and rations for the entire team. And what would really seal the deal would be if the EXO had a human-like, snap-on appendage that resembled a female hand with long glossy nails and could give really good handjobs. We could let our allies in the Philippines or South Korea develop that.
OK, you savages, hold it right there; I know where you’re going with this. Tell me, just where the hell you gonna get that red glossy lipstick in combat?
Poetrooper…Unless the gal in the EXO-skeleton can make a sammich, I say, no way. 😀 😀 😀
(runs and ducks for cover)
Poetrooper, could you do a girl a favor and post a freekin’ SPEW ALERT next time?????
Re: an exoskeleton: it’s that, or the squad gets a TG female who still picks a tree as a target.
poetrooper, As an 11B, 11C, and as a Combat Medic with and Infantry Unit and A mixed Engineer Unit I have seen both genders perform and not perform their assigned duties in respect to their physical abilities. So the question of Gender Equality in Combat Units is a question of can everyone work as a TEAM!
Sure everyone can work as a team! We can all just get along! That’s the ticket! Now, PVT Sissy–that’s the cherry with the big boobs– has to take a crap. Go with her into the bush and see that she doesn’t get her ass shot off.
I bet the social scientists have this all worked out by the next election along with that word peace thing.
imo
Perhaps Baracko the first can just use his pen to make this, and whirled peas happen?
Nice article, Poetrooper.
You hit in on the head.
Thank you Poetrooper, for reaffirming my eminently wise decision to join the Navy.
😉
I was a POG, (never a pouge), and your observations hit the nail right on the head. Well stated, Poetrooper!
I’ve long wondered how many women could keep going when they’re bleeding through their boots. How many could pick up AG gear and ammo to add to what they’re already carrying when a Gunner or AG goes down? I knew an AG that humped his gear for 3 days on a dislocated shoulder before he complained.
I have no doubt there’s a few Amazon queens out there that could hack it. But are we ever going to find them? What amazes me most about this whole discussion is that everyone I’ve ever met who believes in putting women in the infantry have never served a day. Most live in entirely in academia and all are on the socialist end politically.
That’s obviously not to say I haven’t known a few vets that would be OK with it as long they could hack it but everyone I’ve met who pushes the issue. I’m also curious how many women would be offended at the sight of s jack shack?
I’m not saying it’s the best idea, just that it is inevitable because it is being forced instead of allowed to evolve naturally, on its own.
Isn’t combat infantry supposed to be voluntary, as in ‘choice’, not ‘have to’?
There is no draft any more, but if this is being pushed by the more aggressive women, why are women not then included in the Selective Service requirement?
You can’t have it both ways.
@ Ex-PH2, Et Alii:
Serving in combat infantry is a choice?
When did that happen?
When I was a soldier, and young, nobody I knew had a choice about anything, except Airborne, Ranger, and Special Forces.
Everybody else went where they were ordered to go, and did what they were ordered to do.
Currently we have an All Volunteer Force. In all of the services applicants are given a choice of all the available specialties for which they are qualified.
So, yes, in the AVF serving in the infantry is a choice. There are many good aspects of this and a few not so good.
Women should have to be required to register for Selective Service. But doing so would create a huge backlash for the “cake-eaters”
This country cannot and will not stand the videos of American Servicewomen be lifeless cadavers being dragged through the streets of some third world shithole after being raped and beaten.
The same Liberals that are attempting to engineer this social experiment will be the same ones that blame those who were forced to enact it.
Word and Word again.
Personally, I didn’t care for the sight of male soldiers being dragged through the streets.
My point x2.
I just want to add that I think you guys are a bunch of sexist pigs. And I mean that from the ass-end of my heart.
Not ALL of us….
Sweetie. 😉
Ex-PH2, I’m curious as to what your position is on female combat photographers being embedded with infantry units? All the same arguments apply but even more so because young male troops aren’t going to cut a female photog ANY slack at all when it comes to dropping her drawers in their presence.
You want me to be a sexist pig? Here ya go my favorite Squidette.
Do you suppose it would be OK for us sexist pigs to snicker a little when a woman tries to blow the gnats off her field rations? I have been places in this world where the gnats are so thick that as soon as you open your rations they are covered with a teeming, feeding mass of these tiny insects.
When this happens it’s easy to spot the hardcore veterans, The FNG’s (Effing New Guys/Girls) will do their best to blow the gnats off or wave them off, neither of which fazes these tiny frenzied flies.
The Old Hands simply pour a substantial amount of Tabasco on both food and flies and proceed to eat. I wonder if the folks at the Tabasco Company are aware how tasty their historical condiment is when served on gnats?
I’d like to see how long the ladies will hold out before they accept the cold reality of eating bugs or starving? I have a strong feeling it will be a good bit longer than their male counterparts.
Bugs? You think gnats are bag? Try ticks crawling up your pants legs and embedding themselves in places you thought they’d never find. And you don’t know they are doing that until you get home, because they don’t make you itch when they crawl.
My personal favorite: trying to make my way through a cloud of mosquitoes so thick they got into every opening they could find, including my nose, and found their way through the vents in my boonie hat with mosquito netting. I spent four long, miserable days in a swamp photographing lady’s slippers in blossom. The only thing that chased those whining demons away was Skin So Soft from my Avon lady. But I got the pictures while other people gave up and went back to their cars.
Combat? I was in a logging area where everything was a minefield. You could sink in up to your knees in a puddle that looked like nothing. That was fun. If the lumberjacks couldn’t pull the stumps out, they used dynamite but didn’t tell me ahead of time. That was fun. And they made fun of me when I couldn’t get myself out. Even more fun.
Fair question, Poetrooper, but there have been women combat correspondents since WWII.
The best known is Dickey Chappelle, who went into the field with the Marines in Vietnam AFTER she had a lot of other work under her belt.
This French woman, Catherine Leroy, was also a combat correspondent in Vietnam. https://noticeverything.wordpress.com/2012/03/05/cathrine-leroy-female-combat-photographer/
As far as women currently holding combat photographer positions, they are already there and have been for some time.
This is from the Army’s Combat Camera group, re Sgt. Kristina Gupton, a combat photographer who served in Afghanistan: http://www.usar.army.mil/resources/Pages/Female-Combat-Camera.aspx
This is regarding Stacy Pearsall, a USAF combat photographer:
http://www.wearethemighty.com/this-female-vet-is-one-of-historys-most-decorated-combat-photographers-2015-03
Here’s an interview with Pearsall:
http://www.hlntv.com/slideshow/2013/06/26/soliders-songs-stacy-pearsall-combat-photographer
Here’s USAF Staff SGT Cherie Thurlby:
javascript:loadFeature(‘http://www.defense.gov/home/features/military_photographers/thurlby/’,470,675);
These are not exceptions to the rule, they are just women doing what they were trained to do.
Women are there now. Have been for some time, as I said. Maybe it’s time to stop thinking with the mindset of the 1960s.
This article is from Military dot com, regarding combat photographers training with SEAL teams.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,144263,00.html
One of the photographers is PO2 Kori Melvin, a female trainee.
Looking at the accompanying photos of the SEAL photographers, Id say they might be carrying half or a third of what they would if they were Marine infantry. Go look at that 60 Minutes piece and watch when they’re carrying their full basic load and tell me you’re making a fair comparison.
You can come up with all these links you want to, but until a woman passes the Marine entrance test, completes her Marine Infantry Officer training and serves as a Marine Infantry Officer in combat to her commander’s satisfaction I will remain a skeptic.
I know, you probably think I’m a sexist pig and curmudgeon, but I’ve been there, done that, and I do not believe a woman can be a successful infantryman. And I do not want to see anyone die to prove I’m right.
You asked me about women combat photographers. They aren’t required to carry the same load as combat infantry. They are not there to ENGAGE IN combat. They are there to RECORD it.
If you are going to be dismissive of the women who were and are doing that kind of work because they aren’t carrying 100 pounds of gear they don’t need, that’s your curse. You are being childish. YOU asked what I thought if women were to be combat photographers, and I responded that it has been going on for decades.
Then you dismiss it because they aren’t carrying weapons and other combat gear?
I don’t know what you want, other than a chance to sneer at people who are doing a difficult job in a shitty environment.
If that’s the case, you are just being childish. The REALITY is that women have been deployed as combat photographers to the Middle East since that crap started.
ExPH2, the fact that female combat photographers don’t have to match the physical challenges that ordinary infantryman do is precisely my point. It is also how this discussion got started.
I’m not sneering at anyone’s service or courage, I’m saying THEY CAN”T CARRY THE LOAD IN COMBAT AND THE HYGIENE ASPECTS ARE PROBLEMATIC FOR THEM. That’s all, nothing about their service or their courage. I don’t know where you got that.
That’s all and that should be pretty simple to grasp. If you think I’m sneering at combat photographers, you are dead wrong. I wrote truthfully of my experiences with them in combat and nothing more.
I realize the subject is personal for you and I mean no slight to you or your fellow combat photographers.
As far as doing a shitty job in a shitty environment, I think photographers could learn some lessons on that topic from just about any infantry unit in combat. What’s childish about that?
Let’s agree to disagree and when the first woman completes that Combat Endurance Course, and lasts through the entire Infantry Officer’s Course which has a substantial dropout rate among males, and then serves in a Marine Infantry Platoon in combat to her commanders satisfaction, then I’ll tell you flat out that I’m wrong.
Fair enough?
All right, then let me outline what a combat photographer in-country had to put up with while doing his job in the bush.
He had to carry his equipment (camera with one lens attached, possibly a second in a pouch) in a way that kept it unharmed. He also had to carry all the film he thought he would need. That would be 36-exposure 35mm film, usually black and white, as many rolls as possible. The film was senstive to heat and mold and could easily be fogged.
Nikon provided Navy PH CCs with cameras that were mostly Nikon F, which was designed to use a motor drive. But there was NO motorized rewind, which meant rewinding the film by hand (about 3.5 feet) with a tiny levered nob, opening the camera back, removing the film cartridge and replacing it, all while being shot at.
The Nikon F4 was the first all-electric battery driven camera, which included an auto (motor) rewind choice. It was introduced in 1988. It was demanded first by sports photographers.
Since any firefight or combat zone is a shitty environment, the camera operator is not there to shoot back unless he has to. He/she also has to stay out of the way of the shooters and still get the images. Anyone, including WWI and WWII photographers who shot live action, especially motion picture, was in as much danger as the troops. I won’t say it was more than they were, but in all seriousness, you try rewinding a 35mm camera while someone is shooting at you and see how fast you can be.
I know you’re not downplaying the role of the combat photog, but their job was just as difficult then as the troops’ job, still is, because they have to bring home the bacon intact. The only thing that makes it easier now is the flash card, which can hold as many images as 40 rolls of 36-exposure film.
I was referring to people like Chappelle and PH1 Sheppard who were embedded with troops, not those newsies hanging around the embassies.
And I remind that you asked me: Ex-PH2, I’m curious as to what your position is on female combat photographers being embedded with infantry units?
Those are your words. I merely pointed out that women have been in combat photography in the Middle East since OEF and OIF began, and I added that they follow a long history of women combat/war correspondents.
YOU said none of them look like they could carry the load of junk required by combat infantry.
My response was, and still is, that they are NOT required to do so, so I don’t know why you brought up combat photography in the first place.
In fact, PH1(AC)Ret. John Sheppard says in HIS bio that he carried only a sidearm when he was in the bush with a team.
So I don’t know what your point was in asking me about women as combat photographers.
OK, let’s go there and examine the presence of those female combat photographers when they were with the troops. I’m probably as familiar with that situation as anyone in the battalion except the PAO officer. Because we were the supposedly the “legendary” and “elite” 101st Airborne, we drew photogs like flies, male and female. Chappelle may have been among them, but she wasn’t famous then so I don’t know. Here’s what I saw of photogs of both sexes: they very seldom carried any gear into combat except for their camera bags. Even with a few extra cameras, long lenses and more film than they needed, their camera bags weren’t anywhere close to as bulky and heavy as our ruck sacks and ammo pouches. The photographers would fly in on a Huey, usually after the assault element was on the ground and the helipad was secured. To their credit, that was not their doing; the battalion commander or the S-3 operations officer told them when they could fly. I know all this because I frequently carried a radio for the battalion commander and I know that he was concerned that one of the photogs would be killed or wounded while covering our unit and losing a famous photographer might keep him from making O-6. In the forward area the length of time the photogs could stay with the warfighters was usually very limited, as in just enough to get some good shots that would make our battalion look heroic and victorious back home. It would also depend on how hot the incoming fire was. If it turned into a shit storm they were quickly ordered out on the resupply choppers. In the rear area, they might wander around getting some housekeeping shots or if we were in a fight out in Indian Country, they would hang around the medical tent taking pictures of the casualties and wounded prisoners. When the fighting was over and the battalion staff back at home base, that’s where the photogs congregated, the battalion command tent, trying to glean information about further combat operations. I think I… Read more »
I already gave you my answer to this.
Dickey Chappelle was embedded with the Marines in Vietnam. I already said that. She was not carrying anything other than her camera and some film when one of the Marines in that squad kicked a tripwire attached to a grenade. When it detonated, four Marines were killed by it and she was hit in the neck by shrapnel, and bled to death where she fell. Is that COMBAT enough for you?
Please see below.
Sorry, made a double post. My bad.
**YAWNS**
Why are women so desperately wanting to become men?
Do they think us guys will like them more that way?
Wanting the chance to qualify for jobs traditionally held by men does not equal “wanting to become men”.
Don’t get stuck on stupid.
As a former medic I personally believe it would be a huge mistake & risk of life to have females serve as medics with infantry units. i never went out without at least 100lbs on my back. That’s just the physical aspect. Then as a medic you’d have to deal with the guys coming to you with all their injuries/ailments, whenever they have the opportunity. It’s always great to finally be able to grab a bite of chow after checking with everyone when all of a sudden somebody just walks up, drops trou, & asks what he can do for the intense crotch rot, boil, etc that’s driving him crazy. Also on road marches, every time we took a short break, that’s when you have to check with everybody to make sure they’re doing okay. By the time you make it through the platoon it was time to move again. Many times i didn’t even take my ruck off, with my only rest being as i kneeled to check someone’s blistered feet.
Too late. It was a fairly common practice in IZ and AF to bend the rules And attach female medics and other combat support soldiers to line units since they could not be assigned to the unit.
In fact, some of them actually seems to do pretty good jobs:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/23547346/ns/us_news-military/t/female-medic-earns-silver-star-afghan-war/#.VQ7c4IH3arU
Granted, this was a CAV unit of the 82nd, but I’ll leave it to someone else to make the argument that the CAV isn’t as tough as the infantry.
I don’t know how to drum it home any harder than telling you when you are in medical this or that, you get over being embarrassed about the human body very quickly. When are you going to understand that?
I did medical photography for 18 months before I went into the Navy and for the last 9 months that I was in. Medical photography includes going into surgery to do before and after documentation of surgery to repair shrapnel wounds, walking into the pre-op room to see a man lying buck naked on a table and shooting pictures of every damned scar on his body before surgery and afterwards. This is BEFORE he’s covered for surgery. It included some hideous abdominal and inguinal scars.
Just what is it I have to say that gets you to understand how quickly the embarrassment factor evaporates under those circumstances?
It’s goddamn medical work. When are you going to grow the fuck up?
All of the statements of female versus male Infantry are all valid. Another caveat is there are many males in the military who aren’t capable of performing the functions of an Infantryman and I doubt many would care to.
Each MOS has an integral role to perform for the success of those with boots on the ground.
None are lesser or greater than an Infantryman. In all areas, you must be able to perform well “beyond” the basic physical, intellectual and psychological requirements.
Just because society dictates or individuals want to be in the Infantry doesn’t mean its gonna happen.
I didn’t choose my MOS and I suspect most of you didn’t either. I was placed where they thought I could contribute, excel and where they needed me based upon my experience, education, physical, intellectual and psychological evaluations during boot camp.
Thus far whoever makes the determination what MOS is given to whom has got it right regarding female Infantry. None.
Why do some women want to be Infantry? Probably for the same reason I did:
1) I wanted to be a real soldier. Infantry is the whole point of an army.
2) For the shear glory of it.
I will give them the benefit of the doubt. But folks, let’s be realistic about it.
Frankly, I was a tall, skinny geek. It took everything I had just to make the push-ups minimum in OSUT. You could count my ribs. I dropped thirty pounds, and was not fat to start. Six one and 185 on day one. 155 on graduation. Runs? 2 miles in 13:30. 90 sit-ups. 54 push-ups. And I walked in the door doing 50.
Fourteen weeks. Four lousy pushups more than day one. Pushups, weights, extra help from two Drill Sargents that were PT nuts. Sigh….. geek 4life….
In struggled mightily, just to keep up, that bony dweeb upper torso just lacks the raw power of most of my teammates. I found a niche when someone said “go run the mailroom”. Frankly, I excelled at it. I made darn sure our pack of animals had the best mail delivery in the 24th ID.
Didn’t quit. Passed. Foud a way to contribute, and excel. Did my part. But the recruiter who signed me up for 11B should have been flogged. 8 – )
Punchline? About five years after my reserve hitch was up, I had a late-bloom and bulked up a bit to a more normal physique. “Universe Six” has one heck of a sense of humor.
No one weaker than me has any business anywhere near an 11-series MOS. heck, I probably had no business there, either.
Will your participation in combat arms increase combat power, or compromise it?
Politically, there are some people who do not give a flying fart about combat effectiveness. if the latest social experiment makes it harder to use the armed forces, well that to them is a feature, not a bug.
The social scientists are going to love when 40+ hard legs watch “Ranger grow a tail”.
When I was in high school, there was a climbing rope hanging from the ceiling of the gym. We girls were required to climb a minimum of 10 feet up that rope to pass the class. I could barely make it up to those 10 feet, partly because I could not get the hang of rope climbing and partly because I couldn’t pull myself up any further.
There were, however, 4 girls in my gym class who could not only shinny their way to the top, but could also hang out up there, laughing at the rest of us. One of them could pull herself up without using her legs to grip the rope, or the knots in the rope as helpers. I was the least athletic person ever.
10 years later, my brother-in-law took a picture of me loading an 85 pound bale of hay into the back end of my car, holding it up like it was nothing.
Some people have it. Others do not.
Those women who volunteer for combat infantry will have to develop the physical strength for it ahead of time.
Do the Israelis have a model that works for women in combat roles? Not trolling… I really don’t know. Just surprised that I never see it brought up (or the Kurds) in “these types of threads”.
I’ll be the first to admit that I never served so I don’t claim any insight or opinion. All I can say is that I used to work on a busy ramp for an airline. There were females that worked along side. Either they always found something else to do than hop in the belly, or if they tried to make a go of stacking bags they’d be OJI for 3 months followed by 6 months of modified duty. That is not an opinion, just historical record of my experience. It was a tough job and I never worked with a female that could hack it…plenty of males broke down as well. Not equating it to infantry at all.
I will say that I worked on a commercial fishing boat one season with a female that was BADASS. She pulled her own weight and was great crew. Never met another one like her though…
GDContractor, some people are just lazy. They want the paycheck but they don’t want to work for it and will find any excuse to get out of work. It used to be called golbricking – some layabout drinking coffee and gossiping while other people were working.
Just watched it. Thought it was a well done story. As a Dad, I want my daughter to have every opportunity I did.
I winced watching the pull ups and rope climbing. Even when I was (sort of) studly, I struggled with pull ups…I got through Jump School, I think, because a Black Hat was distracted when I was on the bar. And, I could never climb a damn rope even in high school PE.
My pull up and rope climbing weaknesses never caused me a problem as an Army lifer, including tours with the 82nd and 101st. Sorta like Algebra that I’ve never used in 72 years.
But then, I wasn’t at Pont du Hoc …if I had been, I would not have had the balls to climb those cliffs.
Nice story, but it only covers the first two chapters. When they get through this little course what awaits them makes this shit look elementary. They will spend the next year going to schools and training to become a platoon commander. If it turns out they can actually lead a roll of shit paper to the head they will pick up a platoon. Just when they think they might be in charge of something the Platoon Sergeant will introduce himself. Usually a Staff Sergeant that has been doing this shit for better than 8 years. He is generally not in the mood to burp and change a new Lt. but so goes the routine. The PltSgt will spend the next 6 months trying to stop the poor bastard from doing anything too stupid. They will continually be given instruction on the meaning of plausible deniability, radio avoidance, ROE modification, and Lance Corporal counter measures. There is way too much shit that goes on during a PltSgt’s day that they should never ask about. If they manage to get their brain housing group adjusted properly they will command some respect. The least of their worries will be if they can climb a rope. Try 27 below zero in northern Norway and two weeks later humping Hildago at stumps (29 Palms) when its 105, a week later misquote fest at Swamp Lagoon (Camp Lejuene) and then off for some fun finding their way back to Chicken Road in Fayette Nam (Ft Bragg). I have done every bit of that, more than once. I can not imagine what it would be like to have to deal with the extra burden a woman, regardless of her physical ability to climb a rope, would put on our combat readiness. I can not imagine it in any combat arms position. Being a Marine is not just bravado and bullshit, like it or not we are generally arrogant fucks because we can back it up. I can’t speak for the Army but I can not imagine women in combat leadership roles would make them more combat capable… Read more »
Mission last, feelings first.
You can’t cheat biology. Women have 10% less hemoglobin, 10% less bone density, 10% more body fat. Their 100% effort just cannot keep up with men at 100%.
Case in point: When I went through the Marine Sgts School, we had an 8 hour land nav course. Since the class was mixed MOS’s, they paired up infantry like me with non-infantry.
My partner was a female. The course literally broke her body. I was very impressed with her discipline as she endured pain that would put most men in the fetal position. She refused to let me carry her gear. Again, I was very proud of her determined effort to finish the course.
And finish we did, with only minutes to spare. We were the only male-female team to complete the course. And her reward? THREE stress fractures in her legs (remember 10% less bone density). She was medically discharged the next month.
Women do not belong in the infantry. Their bodies simply cannot take it.
I’m with the guys on this. Even the strongest, most physically fit women are not structurally built for the rigors of effective combat. Add to that the hygiene and other medical issues already described, and no woman in her right mind would WANT to be in the infantry. Unfortunately, there are too many women who are NOT in their right mind, and 99.9% of those aren’t the ones who would be attempting it (a la COL Haring). Combat infantry is not a social experiment. Women are a no-go at this station.